Yeah, I should say - it's not that I don't think it's possible to talk about craft and quality at all, it's that I think there's not really a single objective quality of "good"; there are a lot of different axes of it! (Which, I mean, I know you agree with that.) And things that are popular are usually doing at least a few of those things really well -- whether it's connecting to the audience emotionally, giving them a thrill ride, happening to hit the zeitgeist of exactly what a certain demographic needs and can relate to at this particular moment in time ... these are not easy things to do! However, things they're not good at might be things like, say ... continuity. Or acting. XD
Anyway, I realize in retrospect that getting hung up on the idea that my work is terrible because "people are saying X" is ridiculous no matter what anyone is saying about whatever, and I definitely don't want it to sound like I'm blaming anyone in fandom for it. It was not a very resilient time in my life, I have no one but myself to blame, and I'm in a much better place now! And I think that for me, thinking of media as being more or less good at specific things is more ... well, healthier for me than thinking of them as being overall good or bad. In a similar kind of way, I know that I am better at some writing-related things than others -- I'm not really a "craft" writer in the sense of beautiful prose, I don't think I'll ever win awards, but I'm a damn good feels writer (if I do say so XD), and I've been much happier since I just started embracing that rather than trying to aim for a target that wasn't really where my skill set lies.
And I also think there's an often-unacknowledged subjectivity to talking about media as good or bad (though I know you do address the subjective aspect, and like analyzing it!) that can lead to fan fights, because a lot of times what people mean when they say something was good! or great! or awful! is just that it did or didn't touch them in a particular way, and then they can run up against someone saying the opposite, and there's just no way really to find common ground there ...
But I also agree with what you're saying here:
At the same time, I personally do differentiate between "things I like that I think are good" and "things I like that I think are less good". It makes a difference in how I recommend them and who I recommend to, and how I relate and fan on them.
I mean, yeah, there are things where I'm like "This is so great!" and go around suggesting it to my friends and family including people outside fandom, and things where I feel like I need to preface it with a lot of caveats and don't really recommend it to people I don't think would be into whatever its tropes are. I also kinda feel like the "less good" kind are the sort of shows where I tend to get into them gradually and then get seized hard, as opposed to more objectively well written media that I appreciate from the beginning for their craft, even getting sucked in from the very first scene or sentence, but they often don't drive in the emotional nails as hard as the ones where I was kind of eyerolly about the first episode and then starting to feel it by episode 5 and then ohgodgivememoreNOW by the end of the first season. XD
(My sister once described this feeling as "This is terrible! Give me more!" I think this was the time we went through three seasons of Beast Wars in like 3 days.)
Anyway ...
Among other things, I am really sensitive to mocking out of love vs mocking out of dislike. Like, a lot of my intensely fannish shows that I think are sort of trashy, I will not watch with non-fans. To the point of turning the TV off when people enter the room, as if I'm watching something E-rated ^^;;; I find it deeply uncomfortable because I can't squee if I feel like the source of my squee is being judged.
YES. THIS. I mean, not precisely to the turning-off-the-TV point, but like ... I really don't want to watch Iron Fist with Orion, and I doubt if he'd be a good person to watch Guardian with, either. Whereas I think you and I would probably have a really good time watching either show with each other; I think we'd have a similar attitude towards it. There is definitely a key difference between people being harshly or mockingly critical of something they don't like, and people being just as mocking but in a loving way. You can tell! And I do enjoy the tongue-in-cheek kind of friendly mocking. It's like teasing your friends vs. having someone who doesn't like them make fun of them. It might not even be objectively harsher, but it feels different!
no subject
Anyway, I realize in retrospect that getting hung up on the idea that my work is terrible because "people are saying X" is ridiculous no matter what anyone is saying about whatever, and I definitely don't want it to sound like I'm blaming anyone in fandom for it. It was not a very resilient time in my life, I have no one but myself to blame, and I'm in a much better place now! And I think that for me, thinking of media as being more or less good at specific things is more ... well, healthier for me than thinking of them as being overall good or bad. In a similar kind of way, I know that I am better at some writing-related things than others -- I'm not really a "craft" writer in the sense of beautiful prose, I don't think I'll ever win awards, but I'm a damn good feels writer (if I do say so XD), and I've been much happier since I just started embracing that rather than trying to aim for a target that wasn't really where my skill set lies.
And I also think there's an often-unacknowledged subjectivity to talking about media as good or bad (though I know you do address the subjective aspect, and like analyzing it!) that can lead to fan fights, because a lot of times what people mean when they say something was good! or great! or awful! is just that it did or didn't touch them in a particular way, and then they can run up against someone saying the opposite, and there's just no way really to find common ground there ...
But I also agree with what you're saying here:
At the same time, I personally do differentiate between "things I like that I think are good" and "things I like that I think are less good". It makes a difference in how I recommend them and who I recommend to, and how I relate and fan on them.
I mean, yeah, there are things where I'm like "This is so great!" and go around suggesting it to my friends and family including people outside fandom, and things where I feel like I need to preface it with a lot of caveats and don't really recommend it to people I don't think would be into whatever its tropes are. I also kinda feel like the "less good" kind are the sort of shows where I tend to get into them gradually and then get seized hard, as opposed to more objectively well written media that I appreciate from the beginning for their craft, even getting sucked in from the very first scene or sentence, but they often don't drive in the emotional nails as hard as the ones where I was kind of eyerolly about the first episode and then starting to feel it by episode 5 and then ohgodgivememoreNOW by the end of the first season. XD
(My sister once described this feeling as "This is terrible! Give me more!" I think this was the time we went through three seasons of Beast Wars in like 3 days.)
Anyway ...
Among other things, I am really sensitive to mocking out of love vs mocking out of dislike. Like, a lot of my intensely fannish shows that I think are sort of trashy, I will not watch with non-fans. To the point of turning the TV off when people enter the room, as if I'm watching something E-rated ^^;;; I find it deeply uncomfortable because I can't squee if I feel like the source of my squee is being judged.
YES. THIS. I mean, not precisely to the turning-off-the-TV point, but like ... I really don't want to watch Iron Fist with Orion, and I doubt if he'd be a good person to watch Guardian with, either. Whereas I think you and I would probably have a really good time watching either show with each other; I think we'd have a similar attitude towards it. There is definitely a key difference between people being harshly or mockingly critical of something they don't like, and people being just as mocking but in a loving way. You can tell! And I do enjoy the tongue-in-cheek kind of friendly mocking. It's like teasing your friends vs. having someone who doesn't like them make fun of them. It might not even be objectively harsher, but it feels different!