![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Entry tags:
on negativity in fandom
I was writing this whole long rambling post about responsibility, and apologizing for and trying to minimize accidental harm, but then it changed tangents and I think what I most want to say is this:
In fandom, please be careful about how negative you are, and how you are negative.
This relates to anything from offering unsolicited crit on a fic (or heck, solicited crit) to hating on a part of canon, or to being an anti, or to discussing your dislike of a popular fic trope.
I'm not saying this for reasons of courtesy and manners, though I think that counts for something. But it's really for a much more selfish reason: Negativity can make people disengage, and that's overall detrimental to fandom. Which I selfishly care about, as a fan.
Spoilers: fandom is a really fucking emotional thing for most people. Our interests and obsessions are a pretty core part of our identities, and we wouldn't be devoting time and energy to them if we weren't mentally and emotionally engaged. Hearing that someone hates something you love can hurt, even when there is no hurt intended. That's even before we get into the question of fanfic and fanart and vids and other fan creations, and how personal one's art is to most artists. Especially for amateur artists, who aren't getting paid and so the only impetus to share our creations is for emotional validation.
There have been more than a few fic writers who have quit writing because of crit -- because getting crit is really hard even for many professional writers, and people writing for fun may not have the emotional energy to deal with it, or just don't want to, and so they stop, or stop sharing their work publicly. But it's not just direct crit that can do this. If you're writing a trope you love, or a pairing you love, and then you see people talking about how much they dislike that trope or how gross that pairing is, it can make you hesitate to keep writing, or at least hesitate to share your work, knowing you might be inviting crit. Or even just thinking that no one is going to want to read it. (Then, some of us are the opposite and such things inspire us to keep going out of pure spite; but even for me that's something I have to work myself into and it takes its own emotional toll.)
And this hurts, not just the writer, but the fandom as a whole, because someone quitting writing means less fic in the fandom for the rest of us. And even if it's not fic that you like personally, that you'd be happy not to see any more of -- someone else surely would like it, and want more, and do you want to spoil their fun, too?
Likewise, talking about disliking canon can stop discussion, because it can be hard to contradict someone -- especially someone with whom you share a fandom, so there can be that sense of comradery, being in the same community. So if you see a fan friend talking about how X canon thing sucks, rather than argue back that you love that thing, it can be easier to not rock the boat, to not say anything -- but then not feeling comfortable to talk about what you love in a fandom can drain your interest in it, and with it the fandom; and then you drift away, and the fandom shrinks.
To be clear, I'm not saying don't be negative. For one thing, sometimes it's important to do so. Calling out things like racism or toxic behavior can be seen as negative but can also be really crucial for the overall health and safety of a community and the members in it. Pointing out that a fic isn't sufficiently tagged can be a type of criticism (and can hurt a writer) but may help many other fans who could be impacted.
For two, complaining about what we dislike as well as what we like is a big part of fanning for a lot of us -- for me definitely; I enjoy a good hard critical analysis, and I'll be honest, sometimes I take guiltily gleeful pleasure in shredding something I didn't like. And sometimes, too, it feels great to talk about and find out I'm not alone in hating X thing. But I try -- have been trying harder -- to limit how I do it. When I criticize canon, I try to tag/mark it for negativity and squee-harshing, so people who don't want to see it can avoid it. When I criticize fanworks (either a specific fic I don't like, or a trope/ship/etc) I try to ensure it's not personal, and/or to keep it in more private locked channels that won't get back to the writer(s), because that's really all about me and what I like; it's not another fan's fault that I have my preferences, and the last thing I want to do is get in the way of the fun of someone else who is enjoying the fandom as much as I am, if in a different way.
I'm far from great at this -- I've hurt friends on more than one occasion without meaning to because I got too into a fannish debate and didn't realize the feelings I was provoking. I have no doubt that I've discouraged other fans from fanning on and writing things they enjoy, and I'm sorry for that. But I'm trying, and will keep trying -- I've been trying harder especially lately because my current fandom is quite small; just about all of us non-lurkers in it have interacted with each other to some extent, so it makes any interactions more personal than they would be in a larger fandom in which many people don't know each other. I'm not perfect but I'm doing my best. And hopefully my fandoms will be a more encouraging place for it.
tl;dr: make squee, not war?
ETA: this post's original subject was "not-so-vague vague-posting" because I was originally inspired to write it by a mess in my current fandom. My original intent morphed in the writing of it, though, to be more about my own changing feelings about how I interact with the fan communities I'm in, for better or for worse, so I've adjusted the subject to match.
In fandom, please be careful about how negative you are, and how you are negative.
This relates to anything from offering unsolicited crit on a fic (or heck, solicited crit) to hating on a part of canon, or to being an anti, or to discussing your dislike of a popular fic trope.
I'm not saying this for reasons of courtesy and manners, though I think that counts for something. But it's really for a much more selfish reason: Negativity can make people disengage, and that's overall detrimental to fandom. Which I selfishly care about, as a fan.
Spoilers: fandom is a really fucking emotional thing for most people. Our interests and obsessions are a pretty core part of our identities, and we wouldn't be devoting time and energy to them if we weren't mentally and emotionally engaged. Hearing that someone hates something you love can hurt, even when there is no hurt intended. That's even before we get into the question of fanfic and fanart and vids and other fan creations, and how personal one's art is to most artists. Especially for amateur artists, who aren't getting paid and so the only impetus to share our creations is for emotional validation.
There have been more than a few fic writers who have quit writing because of crit -- because getting crit is really hard even for many professional writers, and people writing for fun may not have the emotional energy to deal with it, or just don't want to, and so they stop, or stop sharing their work publicly. But it's not just direct crit that can do this. If you're writing a trope you love, or a pairing you love, and then you see people talking about how much they dislike that trope or how gross that pairing is, it can make you hesitate to keep writing, or at least hesitate to share your work, knowing you might be inviting crit. Or even just thinking that no one is going to want to read it. (Then, some of us are the opposite and such things inspire us to keep going out of pure spite; but even for me that's something I have to work myself into and it takes its own emotional toll.)
And this hurts, not just the writer, but the fandom as a whole, because someone quitting writing means less fic in the fandom for the rest of us. And even if it's not fic that you like personally, that you'd be happy not to see any more of -- someone else surely would like it, and want more, and do you want to spoil their fun, too?
Likewise, talking about disliking canon can stop discussion, because it can be hard to contradict someone -- especially someone with whom you share a fandom, so there can be that sense of comradery, being in the same community. So if you see a fan friend talking about how X canon thing sucks, rather than argue back that you love that thing, it can be easier to not rock the boat, to not say anything -- but then not feeling comfortable to talk about what you love in a fandom can drain your interest in it, and with it the fandom; and then you drift away, and the fandom shrinks.
To be clear, I'm not saying don't be negative. For one thing, sometimes it's important to do so. Calling out things like racism or toxic behavior can be seen as negative but can also be really crucial for the overall health and safety of a community and the members in it. Pointing out that a fic isn't sufficiently tagged can be a type of criticism (and can hurt a writer) but may help many other fans who could be impacted.
For two, complaining about what we dislike as well as what we like is a big part of fanning for a lot of us -- for me definitely; I enjoy a good hard critical analysis, and I'll be honest, sometimes I take guiltily gleeful pleasure in shredding something I didn't like. And sometimes, too, it feels great to talk about and find out I'm not alone in hating X thing. But I try -- have been trying harder -- to limit how I do it. When I criticize canon, I try to tag/mark it for negativity and squee-harshing, so people who don't want to see it can avoid it. When I criticize fanworks (either a specific fic I don't like, or a trope/ship/etc) I try to ensure it's not personal, and/or to keep it in more private locked channels that won't get back to the writer(s), because that's really all about me and what I like; it's not another fan's fault that I have my preferences, and the last thing I want to do is get in the way of the fun of someone else who is enjoying the fandom as much as I am, if in a different way.
I'm far from great at this -- I've hurt friends on more than one occasion without meaning to because I got too into a fannish debate and didn't realize the feelings I was provoking. I have no doubt that I've discouraged other fans from fanning on and writing things they enjoy, and I'm sorry for that. But I'm trying, and will keep trying -- I've been trying harder especially lately because my current fandom is quite small; just about all of us non-lurkers in it have interacted with each other to some extent, so it makes any interactions more personal than they would be in a larger fandom in which many people don't know each other. I'm not perfect but I'm doing my best. And hopefully my fandoms will be a more encouraging place for it.
tl;dr: make squee, not war?
ETA: this post's original subject was "not-so-vague vague-posting" because I was originally inspired to write it by a mess in my current fandom. My original intent morphed in the writing of it, though, to be more about my own changing feelings about how I interact with the fan communities I'm in, for better or for worse, so I've adjusted the subject to match.
no subject
Part of the difficulty is that we're talking about different types of commentary when we say "negative" and imo they are not all the same thing.
I don't mind critique when it is part of thoughtful meta, but I wonder if sometimes after a fandom has been having a convo for a while, some meta loses its nuance for shorthand purposes and can become a bit flippant, simplified, scornful, or monolithic, and that's when it can start to hurt feelings. Likewise, once fandom gets to a place where we have the same conversation about something over and over, and some people feel like x and others feel like y, it can start to seem like you're beating a dead horse.
It's also different when you criticize out of love vs. out of derision. If someone in Guardian gently pokes fun at production value, that doesn't really bother me and can usually make me laugh in affection. But if someone not in the fandom dismisses the show for having bad special effects, then I can get defensive.
As you noted above, critiques for misogyny, racism, etc. are important conversations to have even if they make us uncomfortable or unhappy.
I think the type of negativity that bothers me most is around individual fanworks, styles, tropes, etc. This is in a slightly different category to me because it pertains to something that fandom creates and because negativity around it is so often rooted in individual preferences that aren't always rational (and hence not conducive to debate). Again, with exceptions for convos about racism or meta conversations about things like how we can be a safer space for everyone, I really don't GAF about all the things you personally don't like in fanworks or the fics you personally thought weren't that great. All that does is make me feel like if I create or enjoy those things there must be something wrong with me or that if I create things other people won't like them. It leaves me self-conscious rather than energized. Especially where so much of fanfic is just hitting the id (whether people want to own that or not), sometimes it's hard to be more intellectual about it other than "that trope makes me squee" or "that trope makes me cringe."
One of the things I most treasure about fandom is its gift economy, where we are all building this thing together, and also that it's a space for amateurs. You don't have to be GOOD to create in fandom. You're not getting paid. Some people may be "practicing" for professional publication, but a lot of us have absolutely no aspirations for that. We are creating because we enjoy creation for its own sake and we love something about the verse or the characters. We're having fun. As a result, the expectations I have of both myself and others are much more relaxed. It's not about meeting some standard but about contributing. It honestly really bothers me when people approach fanworks from a "consumer" perspective and become evaluative. Read what you enjoy, and don't bother with what you don't enjoy. Before disparaging tropes, styles, genres in public (for example the number of times I have had to listen to people act like SFF is an intellectually or artistically superior genre to romance...), consider if you are enriching the world of what creators might play with or shutting people down.
no subject
I'm having the opposite problem - I'm finding it challenging to get into a lot of pro fic these days, because great fanfic writers have set the bar of my expectations for how engaging it's going to be, in a place where pro-fic (sometimes self-published but other times not) is more and more often falling flat for me. I have a surprising number of books in my DNF pile whereas past me would have cringed in horror at the thought of not finishing a book, even if I didn't really like it.
Anyway this has nothing to do with the original post but it's 2 am and I'm awake and this is what happens.
no subject
My default mode and preference is squee, however. I just don't have the energy after RL stuff to engage in too many thinky thoughts. (Even this is a lot!)
This! I know I talk a lot, and do a lot of words sometimes, but gah. Going into the nitty-gritty of thinky thoughts on stuff is hard. I prefer meta that's more generally speculative (what did Zhao Yunlan do before the SID?) rather than trying to settle on One True Interpretation of canon, which...is never going to happen because we all have different nuances of understanding, from language comprehension to cultural background to what we read into character motivations.
I like collecting bits and pieces of headcanon, having them sitting around like bits of shiny in my magpie's nest of a brain, and then sometimes I will arrange one of them into a pleasing part of a fic.
But there's other pieces of headcanon that I feel so strongly about that I will be confused and distressed by seeing disparaged or denied! And even I don't know which of my takes on the show are fluid and which are dealbreakers (for engaging in a fanwork) until they hit me. This makes me rubbish at talking about them, because I hate feeling defensive and overly emotional, and so: avoidance.
I come to fandom to unwind and look at the pretty and roll around in feels, so that's my happy place and what I'm looking for here.
This is where I go fluff up the fluff and sharpen the knives and get ready to roll around with you! Because: yes. This is where I'm happiest.
I don't mind critique when it is part of thoughtful meta, but I wonder if sometimes after a fandom has been having a convo for a while, some meta loses its nuance for shorthand purposes and can become a bit flippant, simplified, scornful, or monolithic, and that's when it can start to hurt feelings.
This is absolutely true, and I think very easy to slip into without realizing? Because it's also a bonding experience - yes, we agree with each other, yes, we're on the same page...but for those who aren't, it's absolutely alienating.
I think the type of negativity that bothers me most is around individual fanworks, styles, tropes, etc.
THIS. This is the key for me, and I think I'd even back a "maybe don't throw these around" even if you want to, even if you think your point is very fair and rational or you feel put-upon by a sudden influx of Thing You Dislike and know that likeminded people can support you through this difficult time.
This, I feel, is why we have DMs and private chats and email.
Look, I have squicks. I have types of stories that do nothing for me that are popular and show up a lot.
In the long run I lose absolutely nothing by keeping my frustration with Fast and Furious fusions to myself and those friends I know won't be hurt by the fact that I want to vent about how many racing scenes I am having to skip because they bore me. (Very important: you do not need to like everything! Nobody is saying having human feelings is banned. But my need to express human feelings does not trump others' right to post what they like without feeling attacked.)
So it goes beyond not making posts complaining about The Thing Fandom Is Doing I Don't Like (standard disclaimer: this is different than dealing with racism, homophobia etc.). It includes being mindful in conversations with people, and in comments on fic.
"Don't like don't read" should be applied alongside the golden rule. NOBODY is going to be happy if I read a fic tagged "racing" and then leave a comment on "I liked the rest of the fic but I'm not into racing. Here are my reasons for disliking racing in fic." THIS IS NOT OKAY. This is when you leave the "I liked" part of the comment and turn to your closest friend to get sympathy that you had to skip through yet another bloody racing scene.
This ALSO applies to "I don't usually read Fast and Furious fusions, but yours was pretty good" type of comments. This is tricky, because I feel it might be okay to let an author know you think they handled a subject you find difficult in a good way. I found it hugely flattering that someone read one of my stories despite one of the tags being a squick of theirs.
But if it's a general slag on the trope - this will make every other writer who is into the trope feel that the comment means that their writing isn't good enough to engage in. It might also make the writer who wrote the trope out of love feel hurt, because a lot of people do only write what they love and being told "I'm not into your ship/trope/interpretation of this character in general" is the same as "I dislike what you love" and. Again. Not cool.
If you're in someone's space and it's full of pictures of Vin Diesel and muscle cars, maybe don't start a monologue on how awful you find The Fast and Furious franchise in general, even if you round off with a "but I like this piece of fanart that you drew of a car driven by Michelle Rodriguez". (Wait no I don't mean maybe don't I mean do not).
Okay this is as much rambling as I'm capable of and in summary I support squee and I love fanning with you Asya and I'm sorry if none of this makes any sense. ^^;
*This example is entirely fictional and more people should write Fast and Furious fusions for the rapt audience that is my wife.
no subject
The different types of negativity -- yes, that's important. Though sometimes it can be hard to distinguish... And then, for me, sometimes a reasoned, dispassionate critique can bother me more than just someone saying "YARGH I HATE X" because the latter I can dismiss, but the former I think about.
It's also different when you criticize out of love vs. out of derision. If someone in Guardian gently pokes fun at production value, that doesn't really bother me and can usually make me laugh in affection. But if someone not in the fandom dismisses the show for having bad special effects, then I can get defensive.
This is SO true...and also overlaps with different ways of fanning that can just be incompatible. Like, I will mock Guardian's production values but I genuinely mean it out of love -- one of the reasons I enjoy the show is because I find it cheesy enough that I can't quite take it seriously. I don't even think of that as being negative because it's very much not a bug but a feature for me; I enjoy the show more for that. But for other people who don't want their suspension of belief broken, pointing out the foibles lessens their enjoyment. And there's no real way to deal with this. I mostly just try to limit my mocking to people who fan in a similar way and will take it in the spirit I intend (I'm more likely to mock on Twitter than on dw) but it still risks squee-harshing, even though for me it is squee too.
I think the type of negativity that bothers me most is around individual fanworks, styles, tropes, etc. This is in a slightly different category to me because it pertains to something that fandom creates and because negativity around it is so often rooted in individual preferences that aren't always rational (and hence not conducive to debate).
And yes, this -- I totally agree. I think a lot of tastes in canon are also rooted in individual and not necessarily rational preferences -- but when it comes to fanworks, it's another layer of personal.
I have a lot of interest myself in analyzing my own reaction to tropes, to trying to tease apart why something works for me or doesn't work; and talking about what works or doesn't work for other people can help with that. But I think the discussions about what doesn't work especially...need to be handled with extreme care. Because interrogating the id is tricky business, and feeling like your iddy kinks are being judged, when maybe you don't even know yourself why you like them (and maybe are a little embarrassed by them, as so many of us are) -- that's a terrible feeling, and moreover, yeah, can make you so self-conscious that it spoils your enjoyment. And if you were already having to push through embarrassment to enjoy something...I've been there, and it's not something I want to do to anyone else.
Also talking about tropes that don't work for you can skip over into, not just passing judgment on a trope (saying it's superior or inferior to another) but to passing judgment on other people (unintentionally, or otherwise). It's all too easy to go from "I don't like this thing because of a personal reason" to "I don't like this thing because it's harmful/immoral/stupid" -- and so the people who like it are likewise those things, by implication.
no subject
You know I never have thought about it like that but I think this nails it on the head. For the people engaging in it, this is a shorthand. For me, coming in fresh into The Talk it can feel like a dismissal of the entire thing rather than the nuanced specific thing.
Very interesting point, thank you!