On character hate, villains, and literary tropes

[xparrot]

Just read a comment on my flist by copracat in which she made a fascinating point about character bashing in fanfic, which I wanted to expound upon.

It's a well-known phenomenon in fandom, that any character who comes between a pairing will be hated by some fans of that pairing. While it's not the only source of character hate, hatred of the interloper is perhaps the number one reason for char bashing. Sometimes the hated characters will simply be absent from fanfic, or otherwise ignored. But sometimes the chars will be bashed - portrayed in extremely negative, often wildly OOC ways, as scheming, selfish shrews out to ruin love affairs. When it comes to m/m pairings, such romantic interlopers are nearly always female characters (since almost all slashed male chars are canonically heterosexual, so their only canonical romantic partners are female. The reverse can be true with femme-slash pairings; Joxer was hated by some fans for being a potential threat to Xena/Gabrielle.)

copracat points out that such interlopers are a standard trope in romance fiction. A stock female villain in romances is the woman is trying to come between the lovers: "generally shallow, beautiful outside but ugly inside, a harpy to women and a sweet charmer to men, and will do anything to win the hero from the heroine." This is a classic figure: Cinderella's stepsister, Ursula in Disney's The Little Mermaid (Gaston in Disney's Beauty & the Beast is a male variant.) Her love isn't genuine; it's greed, fueled by envy and resentment, wanting what should rightfully be the heroine's. She's an obstacle in the path of True Love, and for a happy ending to be achieved, she must be defeated, losing everything she's unfairly taken.

Like most fiction tropes, this may not be a story that appeals to you personally, but it's one that works for a lot of people; it's a trope because it's emotionally satisfying to many. It's arguable whether it's intrinsically misogynistic; at least in traditional romances it's less blatantly so, because the villainess is losing to a heroine. When this trope is applied to a m/m slash pairing, then it becomes more problematic, because it's vilifying the major female character in the story.

The other problem is that in the original romances, the female villain is supposed to be hated; that's her role in the story, and to like her you must read the text subversively. But when a female character from a non-romance is cast as such a female villain, then that's a subversion of the original text, and is therefore nonsensical to anyone reading the text straight. Moreover, even if you do like slash, if you're not the sort of person who likes this particular romance trope, then the bashing can seem like pointless, malicious cruelty.

A basher who casts a female character as the evil obstacle in a slash pairing isn't necessarily doing it because they want to make people hate the character, or even because that's actually how they view the character; it's because it's how they want to view the character, what is the most emotionally satisfying way to see them, properly fulfilling their role as villainness. In the same way some fans "love to hate" the textual villains of a series, so do some bashers "love to hate" the chars who are villains in their personal reading of the canon, and enjoy fanfic that supports this view, enjoy seeing them get their just desserts - especially if it's never going to happen in canon.

If you are a fan of the bashed character, you may be frustrated with such OOC portrayals, but it will do no good to argue with a bashing fan. Part of the trait of a good female villainness of this style is that she's got the hero snowed; arguing her good points is only evidence that she's successfully fooling some of the audience, too. (Hence the seemingly paradoxical accusations laid on some characters, that they are simultaneously perfect Mary Sues and helpless, useless, pointless characters - the villainness's Mary Sue-ness is that she is perceived to be perfect, while in fact having no real skills beyond duplicity.) And liking this trope may slip over into misogyny with fans of strictly m/m slash who never like het pairings, because pretty much all female characters can be viewed as possible threats to slash pairings, and therefore all of them may potentially be cast as the hated villains.

But much fanfic in general is about casting characters in new roles, about telling different stories and using different tropes than are seen in the canon. And with many fans liking a good villain to hate in their stories, it's hardly surprising that a canon char may be relegated to that role.

(For the record, I'm not into this trope myself; I like my antagonists in shades of gray, and I don't care for villains in love stories. But that's just my personal taste, and I don't feel that fans who enjoy more black-and-white, straightforward tropes are in the wrong for liking them.)

Comments

[lavvyan.livejournal.com]

This. Thank you.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Glad it makes sense.

[acchikocchi.livejournal.com]

Very nicely put. :)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

*high-five*!

[greyias.livejournal.com]

YES! It's not a trope I enjoy either, but seriously, THIS.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes - it's not that I like it myself, but I totally get why people do...

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

such interlopers are a standard trope in romance fiction

*nods* I can't speak for contemporary setting romances, because I tend to avoid those as boring, but the evil third leg of the love triangle happens all the time in historical romance, frequently with female characters but also sometimes with male ones (like Gaston). Superman Returns for example is rare for a love triangle romance in that Richard White is a decent guy whom the audience is supposed to *like* rather than a jerk who doesn't actually deserve Lois (who, in a traditional romance, would end up back with Superman after Richard turned out to be working for Lex or otherwise evil).

In the same way some fans "love to hate" the textual villains of a series, so do some bashers "love to hate" the chars who are villains in their personal reading of the canon

I hadn't thought about it this way before, but that makes a lot of sense -- certainly a lot of people in old school Gundam Wing fandom seemed to get a kind of enjoyment out of writing Relena as a cackling villainess (while I tend to want characters I truly hate to appear in fic as little as possible, there are some villains I love as villains). I wonder, with the love-to-hate thing, if it's truly the same as pure "DIAF, Bitch!" character hate, because the writer *does* enjoy a certain version of rhe chharacter. It's just not the version that appears in canon.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Copracat has mostly been reading Regency romances, from what she's said, so yeah, it's a trope from there.

And yes, the Superman Returns guy being good was an unexpected surprise to me! And also shows the dilemma of giving all sides a fair shake, because in the Superman movie, you end up feeling sorry for him more than empathizing with Lois or Superman (well, at least I did, anyway...) This can be nice, but it can also be unsatisfying, depending on what you want out of your romance.

I wonder, with the love-to-hate thing, if it's truly the same as pure "DIAF, Bitch!" character hate, because the writer *does* enjoy a certain version of rhe chharacter. It's just not the version that appears in canon.

This really seems to depend a lot on both the individual fan's tastes, and also the character themselves. In some ways it might be a self-defense mechanism? In Smallville, if you don't like Lana, then making fun of her is the only way to watch the show, because she's so omnipresent. And I think some fans can come to enjoy that hate. Like you, I tend to prefer the characters I dislike to be absent, but there are anti-Keller SGA fans seeking out fic starring evil!Keller (one such post inspired the comment which inspired this), so it must work that way for some fans!

[ender24]

hahah, reaading this, I wanna suddenly reading Gwen from Merlin turning into an evol!witch, who is a trainee of Nimueh *g*

[ladydreamer.livejournal.com]

Given how much I liked and sympathized with Nimueh, I would not be opposed to Gwen being her saucy apprentice. :D

[the_con_cept.livejournal.com]

Thank you for this; I hadn't considered it in this light before.

This also made me think of my own writing; whenever I write a female as an obstacle between two males, it's generally because . . . well, if she's the love interest of one, she's the one with the most reason to try to come between them. From a plot standpoint, it just makes sense for her to resist; I can't imagine many girlfriends would be cheerful and supportive if her boyfriend suddenly fell in love with a guy. If it happened to me, I'd be frankly pissed. I think the characterization can be over the top, but sometimes the plot calls for a villain. And if you're going to have a villain or obstacle, there has to be a real threat, real tension.

But aside from that, I can see why it would be a catharsis to write someone that way. I don't usually go for that, but it does make sense.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I think the characterization can be over the top, but sometimes the plot calls for a villain. And if you're going to have a villain or obstacle, there has to be a real threat, real tension.

Yeah, sometimes I think the bashing is as simple as the plot demands it. As well as being cathartic!

[nenya85.livejournal.com]

It’s a good thing I have a very long subway ride to work, because it took all of it to sort out my thoughts.

I thought that was a really good point of copracat, that this is actually a common romance trope, it’s just a little less stark in traditional het romances because in addition to a villainess you have a heroine. I think for me it’s also more noticeable in fanfiction because even though I used to devour Regency romances, I always avoided the ones that relied on this particular plot device, so it feels doubly unfamiliar to me when I see it imported into fanfiction.

Interestingly enough in Yugioh, although Anzu bashing is alive and well, since the main “threats” to people’s OTPs often come from male characters, you see the same trope with male characters shoved into the traditionally female villainess role. For example in Prideshipping (well, bad Prideshipping), you see Yugi as a screeching, clinging whiner trying to keep Kaiba and Yami apart, and in Puzzleshipping you see Kaiba cast as the vindictive, manipulative bitch (when he’s not a rapist, of course). What’s interesting is that since there are no canon pairings, there are no canon threats, yet people sort of import them so that the appropriate hero can be rescued, and then twist the characters to match.

While I would agree it’s senseless to argue with anyone who’s into character bashing, and I am very wary of arguing about what’s right or wrong when it comes to people’s reading tastes, I would still argue that this isn’t good fanfiction. To me one of the main differences between fanfiction and original fiction is that with fanfiction you are given parameters to work within, and these focus on the characters and the dynamics between them.

While I would agree that fanfiction also explores things that don’t happen in canon, it doesn’t seem to me that’s what’s going on here. Instead it feels like someone has said that they want this trope, but there’s no way to write the story with the characters. Now with original fiction, you could simply change the characters, with fanfiction though, certainly part of the challenge is not to contradict them. So I would argue that a story that can’t be told without contradicting everything a character is at their essence is not really good fanfiction, however satisfying it might be to fans of that particular trope.

For example, to switch to Kaoru of RK. Her entire philosophy is based on the Swords that Give Life. I think her determination to find a way to use her technique to peacefully defend people would be intact regardless of if she was in love with Kenshin and regardless of whether Kenshin loved her back. So if she is a jealous harpy trying to kill Kenshin because he loves Saito, at some point she has ceased to be Kaoru, and to the degree that she is not-Kaoru the story does not work as fanfiction, although of course it could be a wonderful villainess trope story. So maybe we need a different category, maybe it isn’t really a fanfiction story but a trope story that just happens to borrow from fandom.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

While it's not a trope I care for myself, I'm really, really hesitant to say it's fundamentally bad fanfiction. Pretty much all fanfiction is about twisting characters to your own ends, to tell the stories you want to tell. How much you want to see the characters twisted, or how far you're willing to twist them before they become unrecognizable to you, is very subjective. One person's hideous OOC is another person's ideal slashfic.

It's arguably even more subjective in anime, which has the doujinshi culture. Many doujinshi are vastly, incredibly OOC - but the characters are still utterly recognizable, as they are drawn art. Add in the differences between manga and anime and dubs and you're often left trying to puzzle out what a character's canonical character even is!

There are definitely fanfics which are more in character, more true to the original canon, etc. But it's hard to say that they're fundamentally better fiction, or fundamentally better fanfiction. So while I'd definitely agree that there are different types of fanfic, some being truer to canon and while others only borrow random elements to apply to different story tropes, I would still call them all fanfiction.

(I admit my take on this has been influenced by being in SGA fandom, which had many crazy AUs and crack parodies and marvelous stories that strayed far from the original intent of the series and characters, but were brilliant and entertaining for all their tenuous connection to the rather mediocre source...!)

[tanndell.livejournal.com]

What's interesting is that very often it works in reverse for fandom as well. The same fans who are hellbent on writing out, writing down, or writing against the romantic interests in canon, are fascinated by the female characters who are portrayed as antagonists (even sexualized ones). Angelique from MfU, Servelan from Blake 7, Saffron from Firefly, I could probably even argue for Layla from Angel, have all consistently been more popular in fanwork than Jenna/Cally (B7), Inara (Firefly) or Cordy/Fred (Angel), at least in the majority of the fics that I've read. Now I like the bad guy regardless of gender, so this is usually ok by me. But it's a tad hypocritical that just because they're not actually threatening to the slash OTP, they can be used by canon as a more positive trope.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

But it's a tad hypocritical that just because they're not actually threatening to the slash OTP, they can be used by canon as a more positive trope.

I don't think it's hypocritical; on the contrary, it makes perfect sense. Some fans are not watching for the same story that is intended in the text; they are watching instead a romance, in which the main story is the development of the romantic relationship of the heroes. The villain is anyone who opposes that relationship; it doesn't matter whether they're good or evil in a straightforward reading of the text.

It's also possible that with fans who like female villains, they prefer those chars who come by their villainy honestly. I don't know all of your example chars, but with Angelique and Saffron, the heroes *don't* like them (even if they're sexually attracted to them). The female romance villain is the girl who *seems* good as she seduces men with her charm, but is secretly evil; all of these women are openly evil. Most of the more disliked female characters I can think of (Lang Lang, Jennifer Keller) would probably be more liked by fans if they actually did turn out to be evil!

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I'm pretty sure I disagree. I think the problem is that bashing a character isn't the same as creating a good villain. In fact, in general the bashed character is usually shown to be rather uselessly pathetic. They're not scary or really that much of a threat. In your post you speak of "relegating" a character to the villain role. In a reply to a comment by elsbethdixon you talk about ficcers "making fun of" Lana Lane. And that's the sticking point for me.

Because a good villain isn't mocked. Not in the romantic trope, especially. In general, they're powerful, quite comfortable with their own sexuality, and personally ambitious. Think Cordelia circa BtVS, or Amanda in the first "Melrose Place". I can only imagine that, just as actors love to play them, writers must love to write them. (Um, I usually fall pretty hard for the villains. *g*)

To use SGA as an example (*g*), I think that if a ficcer actually did write Jennifer as a full on villain (not just a pathetic nerd reaching too far above herself for a man she's not worthy of) I could well love the story. A Jennifer who came to Atlantis to satisfy her own ambition, hooked the Chief Science Officer through the cunning use of her sexual wiles (nearly got the expedition head, but Sam would get transferred at the last minute, damn it all to hell, all those 'girl's night in' nail-painting sessions gone to waste), and when a suspicious John came sniffing around, threatened to end him? I think that's a version of Jennifer I could get behind. :)

I don't mind when a canon character is purposefully turned into a villain. Often it's a great deal of fun. But I think reactive fic about a character the author honestly just doesn't like is a very different animal. The writer isn't enjoying building up this big villain, they're enjoying tearing down a character that (probably) they don't think should have existed in the first place. No one ever says of an actual villain, "Oh, the story would have been so much better if she hadn't entered the picture."

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I would counter that you see "villain" in a very different way from many people. You *like* villains; they're interesting characters to you, and you see a good villain as a well-developed, powerful character.

Not everyone sees villains this way. In the classic romances using this trope, you are not *supposed* to like the villain; you are supposed to despise her, and be glad to seen her torn down, degraded, destroyed. The emotional catharsis is seeing the good get rewarded and the evil get their just desserts. The people who write bashing stories I think are more in this vein; to them, villains are characters meant to be hated. Villains of this type aren't meant to be strong characters; they're pathetic, stupid, ignoble - deserving only scorn and abuse. Not Voldemort or Snape, but Wormtail. The pleasure is not in admiring their wickedness, but in seeing them go down.

To be honest, I like villains myself, so I'm not the best analyzer of this trope; I'm not entirely sure what the emotional catharsis is for people who get off on it. Possibly it's a variant of a revenge fantasy, degrading villains who resemble real people you envy/dislike. Maybe it's a more basic, brutal bullying impulse.

At any rate, it's a very, very different understanding of "villain" than your own understanding of the concept.

[feikoi.livejournal.com]

Very interesting post and comments. I, personally, don't like reading character-bashing stories, but that's largely because I don't care for OOCs. Crack!fic, I love, but I like having the characters' reactions to plot devices to be in character. Same with AUs -- if the life experiences of the character have altered some part of their personality, then fine, as long as it's a believable extrapolation and they're still recognizably the original character.

I was just rereading a Buffy xover fic the other day, and commenting to a friend that if only they didn't start bashing Buffy and Willow in the way they did... To me, it didn't serve the plot or [Xander] romance much at all, and there are ways to portray characters in an unsympathetic manner without shoving them completely out of character into screeching-harpy-land.

But yes, those are my own priorities in fic. I hadn't really thought much about how some people like the alternate characterizations on purpose (even though my sister is one). So, thank you for reminding me that fandom is filled with many people with different tastes, and that just because I love or hate certain writing does not mean it holds across the board.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

But yes, those are my own priorities in fic. I hadn't really thought much about how some people like the alternate characterizations on purpose (even though my sister is one). So, thank you for reminding me that fandom is filled with many people with different tastes, and that just because I love or hate certain writing does not mean it holds across the board.

Yes, *this*, exactly. I don't like this kind of story myself; I prefer more OOC stuff, and I'd rather read a character treated sympathetically, or else not at all - even chars I don't particularly like. But I just don't feel that everyone who likes other kinds of fic is simply wrong for liking them...

[trystings.livejournal.com]

Pretty much all of this!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

*high-fives*

(also, yays~ Ziva!)

[les-lenne.livejournal.com]

From metafandom, hi! o/

This was very interesting to read indeed. I'm one old villain lover. Scar of Disney's "The Lion King" was probably my first ever crush and from that day, I often preferred the villainous characters over the heroes and heroines with few exceptions (going with the Disney example: I like Ariel more than Ursula though I love Ursula as well).

Even if I'm trying to write bash fic* it never turns out as good -- or as bad, really, because that's what bash fic is -- as the ones you can read everywhere. I can write villains. I love to write villains. And within this lies the problem. I will start sympathizing with this character, simply because s/he is working against the hero's/heroine's goal. The reasons of the fictional villain are closer to a normal human's worries than those of the heroes and heroines, I guess, at least a lot of the time. I'm not a princess & nobody thinks I'm gonna be the savior of the world; the villain's shady past feels much more closer to my life than the hero(ine)'s and therefore I can't portray one antagonistic character in a shallower way than the good guys™.

However, it seems only natural, especially for... a little more naive (?) writers to put the antagonist in a bad, bad light and respectively, that will be the character they don't like or as you said, love to hate. I can see why they write such fic. It brings them joy to have a) their pairing fulfilled and b) their least favorite character mangled at the end of the day.

If you see it like that, you could even say they are a "fan" of the character they bash. Just for completely different reasons than other fans of him/her.

Unfortunately for me, this works for myself too, but it's kinda weird: let's say A/B is my beloved pairing and C is in the way (or I see it like that, at least) & I dislike C a lot. If I'm writing C like a villain, I'm suddenly very fond of A/C as well! Woe me, when both A/B and A/C are an option. Choosing is haaaard.



* for crack!fic or when I'm prompted to turn a character into the antagonist

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

However, it seems only natural, especially for... a little more naive (?) writers to put the antagonist in a bad, bad light and respectively, that will be the character they don't like or as you said, love to hate.

This is a great point, one that I was trying to figure out how to mention. "naive", yes, that's a good way to put it. It's not necessarily a *bad* way of looking at fiction, just not a very complex or analytical one. For people who like more complex stories and more complex characters, the trope fails; but that doesn't mean that it's pointless, just that it's not for you.

Unfortunately for me, this works for myself too, but it's kinda weird: let's say A/B is my beloved pairing and C is in the way (or I see it like that, at least) & I dislike C a lot. If I'm writing C like a villain, I'm suddenly very fond of A/C as well! Woe me, when both A/B and A/C are an option. Choosing is haaaard.

Ahahah...yeah, I know the feeling. If ever I try to write a bashing fic that makes my hated character deliberately, willfully evil, then I start liking the hated character. (This is probably because most of the characters I actually hate, I hate them most because they *bore* me, and I resent them taking up screentime - if they're evil, then they're no longer boring!)

[littlehollyleaf.livejournal.com]

Fascinating, and very clearly put. I think I agree with you :)

Just out of interest though, you say you don't like the 'female villainess' trope, so I'm curious as to how you consider SV!Lana. See, I DO like the trope (although not obsessively) but when it comes to Lana I've always felt she was Mary-Sue like regardless of my love of the Clex. Now, however, I'm wondering if my love of the slash HAS been clouding me. Do you have an opinion on this? :p

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hmm - let me clarify, I don't like this trope, the petty, shallow bitch unworthy of love - but I often will like the villains in question (I have a tendency to feel sorry for them.) In Smallville this trope was done with Lana as the heroine and Lex as the villain - conniving to get between Lana and Clark's True Love, while being unworthy of that love..

Proper female villains I rather love. (Actually, the closest I probably came to liking Lana - other than in s1, where she was kind of sweet if vapid - was in s7 when she started evil. Or was that s8? When she had Isis and such. She was almost cool, then. But I don't think they followed through with it, that I recall...)

[dovil.livejournal.com]

It may not be my cup of tea, but it certainly does make sense when viewed in this light.

(This is probably because most of the characters I actually hate, I hate them most because they *bore* me, and I resent them taking up screentime - if they're evil, then they're no longer boring!)

And just to quote you from a comment above, this!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's the thing; it's not that I enjoy it, but I understand it, I think.

And yes! A character boring me is probably the greatest sin they can commit...I suspect that's *why* I start to actively hate on them, because at least it makes it interesting to watch them, to analyze their flaws?

[sheafrotherdon.livejournal.com]

It seems to me your argument requires us to sever stories from the long cultural history that informs them. Tropes about women didn't rise in a vacuum - and the "classic" female villain you describe above is inherently a tool by which editors, publishers, and any number of other people (including women themselves) have historically policed female choices / agency. The classic female villain represents what women should not be; it's not hard to see how that expresses a very limited view of acceptable female behavior, or how such characterization are deeply influenced by the cultures in which we are raised.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I admit that I do not have the full tools to analyze this; while I've studied on my own, I have no formal education in literature and feminist theory, so end up covering a lot of ground that has been covered a million times before. What makes me wonder how gender-based this trope is is that I can think of multiple examples where a male character is cast in this "villain" role (Gaston, Lex Luthor in s6 Smallville, Captain Hammer in Doctor Horrible). There can be sexism in what traits are considered negative in the female villain, but I don't know that the relationship-villain trope itself is inherently sexist.

(I also do feel, as was discussed in comments above, that taking this trope at face-value is a very simplistic, naive way of relating to fiction. But I am hesitant to judge such surface-level engagement as actually wrong, or harmful. That's a terribly complicated issue, though.)

[green-grrl.livejournal.com]

This has been on my mind a lot recently, because I just had a ficathon assignment to write an oft-bashed female interloper in a non-bashing way. And I'm getting a lot of comments from slashers saying, "Wow! You didn't bash her." Alrighty then!

It's not that I haven't enjoyed reading a bashing fic or two myself, on occasion. But I've realized that for me it's a way to exorcise anger at TPTB for the way they take a character and completely fail to develop a coherent, relatable characterization for him/her. I loved early seasons Sam on SG-1. Then she suddenly had a huge crush on her commanding officer, and persisted in it, off and on, over the next six years. I was already pissed that Sam promoted young, hesitant, self-doubting Keller to Chief Medical Officer on a war-time outpost, and the left-field love affair with Rodney was the last straw. Lana Lang was never anything but a Mary Sue. I don't mind a bashing fic that reads like extreme sarcasm directed at the writers by emphasizing their poor motivations and adding just as much OOC as the writers tend to from episode to episode. It's more like it's pointing out the misogyny (I hope unconscious) of TPTB in not writing fully rounded, motivated women characters. "If this is the character you're putting on the screen, well, I'm going to take her to the extreme."

On the other hand, I've also read vicious misogyny that makes me cringe for my sex.

And I have no desire to read bashing of characters in a triangle who are actually great characters. I adore Gwen on Merlin, even though I ship Arthur/Merlin (and Gwen/Morgana *koff*). I don't think the writers are doing a great job of really developing motivations behind Arthur/Gwen and Gwen/Lancelot (oh, TV, when will you do it right?!) but Gwen herself is a lovely character and I can only feel sympathetic to her. I also loved Xena/Gabrielle, but I also loved both Joxer and Ares, even though they were "threats." They were still awesome characters!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

But I've realized that for me it's a way to exorcise anger at TPTB for the way they take a character and completely fail to develop a coherent, relatable characterization for him/her.

YES. This. It's not meant to be hurting the character, or even fans of the character; it's a form of critique. (I wrote a post on this a while back - I don't totally agree with all of it now, but, yeah, I think it's often accurate.)

On the other hand, I've also read vicious misogyny that makes me cringe for my sex.

Sadly, yes, this is true, too. And sometimes the line's not entirely clear, if it's not readily apparent how self-aware the author is, if what they're saying is meant sincerely or sarcastically.

And I have no desire to read bashing of characters in a triangle who are actually great characters. I adore Gwen on Merlin, even though I ship Arthur/Merlin (and Gwen/Morgana *koff*). I don't think the writers are doing a great job of really developing motivations behind Arthur/Gwen and Gwen/Lancelot (oh, TV, when will you do it right?!) but Gwen herself is a lovely character and I can only feel sympathetic to her.

Ditto! You transcribe my brain. I *want* to like Gwen/Arthur, but so far they ain't doing so great convincing me of it. --Though actually I ship Gwen/Morgana harder than Arthur/Merlin. Gaaah, they are so sweet! *hastily uploads Gwen/Morgana icon just for this comment*

[patk.livejournal.com]

This is ... very enlightening. Never viewed the topic from this viewpoint. That's really something to think about. Thank you. :-)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Glad it made some sort of sense! I don't think it's always what's going on, but it's a factor...

[meredith44]

This was interesting, and I'm going to have to think more on it.

My first reaction is that while I can understand it, I don't like it, mostly because of how it carries over into fandom at large. On a more personal note, the trope tends to turn me off of slash stories I might otherwise read and enjoy as it is so pervasive in a lot of my fandoms. My "problem" is that I tend to like the majority of female characters, if not necessarily for what they are, but for the potential of what they might be. I cannot even tell you the number of times that I've tried to read a slash story and the female character(s) was/were bashed, and that just pulls me right out of it.

For example, Without a Trace. I liked Samantha, but quite a few of my friends were very into the Martin/Danny pairing, so I wanted to give it a shot. I cannot tell you the number of stories that I tried to read that bashed Samantha. (She was the canonical love interest of Martin for about a season.) I didn't make it through a single one of the stories.

I think it is because I started my slash reading with Sawyer/Jack on Lost, where perhaps the writers were more mature? Regardless of why, even if they didn't particularly care for Kate (the canonical love interest of both Jack and Sawyer), they mostly managed to get Jack and Sawyer together without any character bashing. (Yes, there were exceptions, but they were definitely the exceptions in what I read.) Actually, come to think about it, I saw as much Jack bashing in Sawyer/Kate stories and Sawyer bashing in Jack/Kate stories. Pretty much every example was from a less mature writer.

To me, this trope just seems like lazy, simplistic writing. That wouldn't bother me so much, as I know that there is an audience for all types of stories and I could just chalk it up to not being my cup of tea, except for two things. One is that it does tend to be a woman character bashed for a male/male pairing to happen. Two is that the anti-female attitude tends to migrate from the fiction and into the fandom.

Put these two together, and it starts to look like misogyny. I don't know if you are in the Supernatural fandom at all, but the hatred of pretty much all female characters by the fandom is pretty prevalent. So much so that the actor who plays one of the main male supporting characters commented in a mainstream interview that the reason fans liked him was because he wasn't female. I'm also seeing it start in the NCIS fandom. Since about midway through last season Ziva has been hinted at as a possible love interest for Tony. It has sparked major backlash, not only of the potential pairing, but also of the female character.

I'd be okay (I think) with this writing/trope, if it just didn't seem so misogynistic in the fandoms I am a part of and/or if it didn't carry over into general fandom.

Hopefully that made sense. (Here from metafandom, btw.)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

When it comes to not wanting to read this trope, I completely understand - as I said, I don't like to read it myself; I prefer a more complex reading of relationships. And I sympathize with the frustration on a personal level of not getting much fic of the sort you want to read. (I like slash, but I'm more often than not a gen fan, and finding good gen is well-nigh impossible in some fandoms!)

And I do agree that character bashing is a simplistic form of writing (the only exceptions I know of are when it's done for comedic effect, depending on how it's done; satire can run the gamut from trite to sophisticated.)

One is that it does tend to be a woman character bashed for a male/male pairing to happen. Two is that the anti-female attitude tends to migrate from the fiction and into the fandom.

These are both good points, which I'm going to fail to properly address here, because I think the answers are very complex - in a nutshell, I think that preference for slash at the expense of female characters, and female character hate in general, *can* be misogynistic, but there are other factors at work, including things I find anti-misogynistic (e.g. fans reject female characters because the characters themselves are misogynistic portrayals).

But I understand your points, and I wish character bashing would lose the misogynist overtones, too.

(ahh, metafandom! That explains why I got up to so many comments this morning... ^^)

[topaz-eyes.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom...

I think you are right here, that the (largely female) character bashing is done out of need to see her as the villain, the obstacle to true love, because m/m slash is a genre of romance.

If you are a fan of the bashed character, you may be frustrated with such OOC portrayals

My problem with char bashing in OTP stories is, to get the trope to work, one or both of the slashed characters often end up OOC too. The "heroine" of the slash pair usually has to be altered to become the polar opposite of the villainess. Sometimes this means the "hero" is warped too to compensate. So, IMO, there's a double-bashing going on, even though the slash "heroine" bashing is entirely unintentional.

but it will do no good to argue with a bashing fan.

ITA. :-)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

My problem with char bashing in OTP stories is, to get the trope to work, one or both of the slashed characters often end up OOC too. The "heroine" of the slash pair usually has to be altered to become the polar opposite of the villainess. Sometimes this means the "hero" is warped too to compensate. So, IMO, there's a double-bashing going on, even though the slash "heroine" bashing is entirely unintentional.

I don't know if all OOC counts as bashing - it depends on your perspective - but yes, forcing characters into tropes in general tends to cause some degree or other of OOC. I'm just not convinced that OOC in itself is any great sin in fanfic - I prefer IC myself, but most of the time I'm a "live and let live" fan, at least when it comes to fanfic...(which isn't to say I don't point & laugh at badfic - but I try to keep it private, when I do, because I don't feel that badfic authors have done anything wrong such that they need to be stopped or punished for it...)

[djin7.livejournal.com]

IAWTP.

All stories tend to have a villain or a villainous situation to forward the plot, and the easy way out is to make it the so-called 'female interloper'.

In Harry Potter fandom, of course, it's Ginny Weasley, who ends up being Harry's wife in canon, though before now, best friend Hermione Granger was often the victim of said bashing (And to a smaller degree, best friend Ron in the same role, oddly enough).

In SGA there seems to be a huge hate (for anyone who slashes Rodney) for Jennifer Keller, and to a smaller degree - Katy Brown, Sam Carter or Rodney's sister, Jeannie.

I don't personally enjoy [extreme] bashing, though as a slasher, I do prefer the women out of the way - to that end, I've seen many ways it can be done without making [any of the] women shallow, evil, or weak. It can take time and work, and I often wonder if it's laziness moreso than actual dislike of a character that makes a writer choose make an easy villain out of a potential rival for said slash character's affections. Writing is hard work, and this cuts corners. IMHO.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I often wonder if it's laziness moreso than actual dislike of a character that makes a writer choose make an easy villain out of a potential rival for said slash character's affections. Writing is hard work, and this cuts corners.

Yup, I agree that it probably is laziness in many cases - the fan-writer needs the interloper character out of the way - or simply needs a plot for their story - and this is an easy trope to employ. It's not a sophisticated tactic, and can be a sloppy one, but I don't know that it's so fundamentally bad that it needs to be banished entirely...

[valeria-15.livejournal.com]

But the Cinderella Stepsisters example isn't really a good one: they're ugly inside AND outside.

If the fictional character in canon is a bad person, treating others quite badly then the writers are writing it IC.

Besides, fans that bash certain characters only do it out of frustration; like the real world you have teenagers (as an example) that hate other kids, so their frustration would be channelled by getting 'even.' Yes, it does sound quite childish...but it's a process of growing up and learning to mature out of that.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

But the Cinderella Stepsisters example isn't really a good one: they're ugly inside AND outside.

Eheh - I admit here I wasn't thinking so much of the actual fairy tale, but the Ever After movie, which I rather adore, blatantly cliche romance though it may be.

Besides, fans that bash certain characters only do it out of frustration; like the real world you have teenagers (as an example) that hate other kids, so their frustration would be channelled by getting 'even.' Yes, it does sound quite childish...but it's a process of growing up and learning to mature out of that.

And yes, I think character bashing is largely a more immature activity - but while individual fans will grow up and hopefully grow out of it, there are always going to be new, younger fans coming in - so fandom itself is never going to entirely outgrow the practice. So we might as well seek to understand it, so we can hopefully channel it to less harmful or less misogynistic directions.

[thelana.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure whether the idea that it's just a trope like any other because it serves a particular need/is emotionally satisfying to some really works for me.

It seems to me that it should at the very least stand on the same level as MarySues or self inserts. After all, they too serve a particular human need and can be emotionally satisfying (at the very least to the author). At same time, despite being a trope (no shortage of books where it could be argued that a main character is a canon Sue or self insert) it is still generally looked down upon and considered bad writing.

At the worst, for example if you want to bring in the feministic aspects it could be put on one level with things that are emotional needs but that are still wrong. For example, one could argue that it is an emotional need and emotionally satisfying for some people to have a very simplistic world view, which for example is governed by racist stereotypes. That doesn't mean that writing a story that satisfies this need for a simplistic world like that would be ok.

Same for people who have a need for "rape victim is healed by magic penis" stories. It might be emotionally satifying for some, but it generally is considered to at least be controversial for a reason.

I'm really not a huge feminist or fluent in feminist theory, but I thought the basic idea with those "system of historical opression" kind of things is that
(1) you might think that you are immune to their influence (meaning you think you are choosing to make the female character evil just because you need somebody to fill that trope or be an antagonis) but you actually are subconciously reacting to misgynistic tropes that many centuries old no matter how sure you are that you aren't doing that
(2) even if you actually are one of the people who manages to have a motivation that has nothing to do with that long history of misogyny it doesn't mean that it will still create a misogynic effect on whover reads it

For example, let's say you want to cast Ronon as the wifebeating husband stereotype who abuses and rapes Shep to McKay can save him (or ask for a story where Ronon is a slave to McKay) you might not mean it in a racist way but it will still create a picture with icky connotations whether you mean to or not.

Generally, the reason I personally don't particular like this trope is because I agree whoever said a few posts up that the cause/effect sequence is the other way around. Not "I need a villain so I cast this female character for it" but rather "I hate this female character and hence get emotional satisfaction from casting her as a villain". Now personally, I find the worst kind of writing is where "the strings are showing"; meaning fic where the author's personal agenda bleeds into the story in a way that is really obvious. Namely where it *doesn't* feel "wow, this story really needs a slimy antagonist and this character is perfect for it" but where it feels like the antagonist was shoehorned in to satisfy the hate of the author and it NOT feeling like something that is just natural to the story.

Why is it different from when situations are tweaked or even twisted around into deep OOCness to justify one author's adoration and love for the characters? I don't know. I guess because ultimately love is a more appealing emotion than hate. And seeing somebody love wank all over characters is more appealing than seeing somebody hate wank all over a story. Besides, if you love something, at least in theory it should mean that you want to serve these characters and do them justice. That's not the case if you are writing out of hate, meaning it doesn't make for a very pleasant reading experience. Yes, chances are that many/most people are familiar with at least some form of cheap revenge fantasy. But maybe it's a good thing to grow out of that. While there might be other tropes about true love or childhood or good winning out that might be just as simplistic but are more worth preserving.

Basically, there are things that are taboo for the wrong reasons, but there are also tropes that maybe get a bad rep for good reason, whether for "good writing" reasons, political or emotional/philosophical reasons.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

It seems to me that it should at the very least stand on the same level as MarySues or self inserts. After all, they too serve a particular human need and can be emotionally satisfying (at the very least to the author). At same time, despite being a trope (no shortage of books where it could be argued that a main character is a canon Sue or self insert) it is still generally looked down upon and considered bad writing.

I would put this trope at the same level of Mary Sues and self-inserts, yes. I don't see a fundamental problem with Mary Sues; I don't like to read them, and they're a simplistic, unsophisticated form of writing, so they're "bad" insofar as they're less complex or well-thought-out. OTOH, the basic purpose of erotica is also simplistic and unsophisticated, and I don't feel that PWPs are that terrible a thing.

If you appreciate complex writing, if you read for intellectual rather than emotional reasons, then none of these tropes are going to work for you, which is fine; it's when one starts to make a judgment call on those who do like them that I get antsy.

(1) you might think that you are immune to their influence (meaning you think you are choosing to make the female character evil just because you need somebody to fill that trope or be an antagonis) but you actually are subconciously reacting to misgynistic tropes that many centuries old no matter how sure you are that you aren't doing that
(2) even if you actually are one of the people who manages to have a motivation that has nothing to do with that long history of misogyny it doesn't mean that it will still create a misogynic effect on whover reads it

The first point here is one that I have a whole lot of thoughts to get into at another time (I'm less convinced than many people that misogyny is rampant in fandom; I think it does exist, and it is *a* factor in why female chars are less popular, but I'm not sure it's the key factor.)

The second point is more pertinent, and one that does have to be considered - I think it gets conflated with the first point so often that I haven't confronted it directly. Will have to think on it.

Basically, there are things that are taboo for the wrong reasons, but there are also tropes that maybe get a bad rep for good reason, whether for "good writing" reasons, political or emotional/philosophical reasons.

This is very reasonable. However, if a trope is ultimately negative and should be stricken from the record, then I'm more interested then ever in *why* people like it, what emotional satisfaction it's providing. If the ultimate satisfaction is in the reinforcement of misogynistic tendencies, then uprooting those tendencies will cancel out the desire for the trope, and should be the goal.

On the other hand, if the satisfaction is from another, less objectionable source, then the easiest solution might be to suggest alternate tropes that also satisfy it.

Yes, chances are that many/most people are familiar with at least some form of cheap revenge fantasy. But maybe it's a good thing to grow out of that. While there might be other tropes about true love or childhood or good winning out that might be just as simplistic but are more worth preserving.

I have to mention here - I am not positive, but I believe that a large amount of char bashing in fanfic is by younger, less mature authors. Teens tend to hate more passionately than adults; I think it's part of being a teenager. So it's indeed a case of needing to grow out of it on an individual level - but since there are always new, younger fans joining fandom, and bringing their passion with them, fandom itself can never entirely "grow out of it."

[pin-drop.livejournal.com]

Thank you for posting this. I agree with everything you said, and it helped me to articulate something in my own mind about villains and how I feel about them. I vastly prefer stories with admirable villains, people whose choices I find despicable/misguided, but who have the charisma and the brains to make me like them in spite of myself.

Do you ever find that your favourite character is the one who's been deliberately vilified in the text, the one you're not "supposed" to like? (This question has as much relevance to characters who are vilified in slash and femslash as it has to characters who are vilified in canon.)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Do you ever find that your favourite character is the one who's been deliberately vilified in the text, the one you're not "supposed" to like? (This question has as much relevance to characters who are vilified in slash and femslash as it has to characters who are vilified in canon.)

This is very often true - there was a fair bit of discussion on this topic on this post of mine from last year. And yes, I think it is relevant - characters vilified in text are often loved by fans, and characters who are supposed to be loved in canon sometimes can push fans to the other extreme.

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

This is very interesting. I find this trope massively annoying, but also think it's very difficult to create a credible third wheel in a romance. In films, they're either such tools they make their betrothed look bad for falling for them in the first place (like that guy in Three Men and a Little Lady), or so good they outshine the hero/ine (you mentioned Richard White; I happen to think Norrington from PotC also falls in this category). I have the highest respect for people who manage the balance - Road to Avonlea did it admirably, I think.

So in addition to the deliberate antagonists, I think there are also instances of character bashing where the character becomes villainous because the writer REALLY REALLY wants to show that the pairing of choice are Meant For Each Other, and is afraid that this won't be possible if the other potential love interest isn't a heinous bitch/bastard. (And it's definitely not just done in slash fic, or just with female characters. I remember reading X-men fic from different perspectives vilifying everyone in the Logan/Jean/Scott triangle.)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes, these are all good points - it's not just that this trope is simplistic writing; it's that writing against this trope, casting everyone sympathetically while still making a convincing case for your preferred pairing, can be very difficult writing. So it's not surprising many fanficcers, lacking the experience or simply the time or energy to depict more complex relationships, call upon less sophisticated but emotionally satisfying tropes.

[terabient]

(here from metafandom)

Interesting read, it has given me a lot to think about on a slow afternoon. :)

I agree that when it comes to character-bashing in fic the author doesn't *always* hate the character in question, and that it's likely the author is thinking in terms of tropes/plot devices instead of IC character interaction.

I *do* think that in a lot of fics that involve a 'relationship villain' the author is expressing a frustration about certain kind of relationship dynamic, and may be trying to position their (usually) non-canon relationship as superior.

The Xena/Gabrielle/Joxer triangle has been mentioned - as someone who was a part of the online fandom when the show first aired, I know that nearly all the Xena/Gabrielle shippers hated Joxer/Gabrielle because J/G was a traditional heterosexual romance that threatened a non-traditional lesbian romance. There were other characters who acted in the role of relationship villain in Xena, but nearly all of them were female as well; they did not represent a loss or replacement of a lesbian relationship with a heterosexual one. And notably, Joxer-bashing became less prevalent in the later seasons, when it was clear that Joxer/Gabrielle would never become canon.

As for fandom, in a lot of fics that include character-bashing, there are often scenes where a character will reflect on a potential relationship with the 'villain', and usually express distaste over the way it might play out - 'I don't want to be tied down in a marriage!' or something similar, depending on the type of relationships involved.

I sometimes wonder if this is why so much m/m slash written by females (especially younger women and teens) ends up sounding so misogynistic - the authors don't hate women, but perhaps they find traditional m/f romances frustrating and take out that frustration by character-bashing.

Naturally this doesn't work for all character-bashing fic but I do think this mindset is behind some of them.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I sometimes wonder if this is why so much m/m slash written by females (especially younger women and teens) ends up sounding so misogynistic - the authors don't hate women, but perhaps they find traditional m/f romances frustrating and take out that frustration by character-bashing.

Thank you! I entirely agree with this; it's a thought I've often had, but I've struggled before with putting it into words, and you express it very succinctly.

Slash is so prevalent in many areas of fanfic that I think it's easy to forget that it's not mainstream, that the relationships shown in slash are non-traditional, and fans may consequently be more defensive about them.

I think a similar case can be made for a lot of female character hate - fans (especially younger, more emotionally volatile fan) say they hate a character, when really what they are hating is that the character to them is not a convincing or flattering depiction of a woman, and they are rejecting the misogynistic portrayal. That their rejection may be expressed in seemingly misogynistic ways is a sad irony...

(Man, I really need to see Xena. It's the only English-speaking sf-fantasy genre show I know of that has more female-female relationships than male-male relationships, at least from what I've heard?)