Yeah, the second Sue I define, I was expanding the definition past the norm, because I think it's generally used as a criticism - referring to that kind of character, but done poorly. But "done poorly" can be awfully subjective, such that I think most of those chars probably could and have been called such. Bella in Twilight, for example, is as far as I can tell a classic Mary Sue by many a definition (but that doesn't stop those books from selling like hotcakes.) And Rodney is only a Marty Stu in the hands of certain writers who maybe like him/identify with him too much (countered by other writers who don't like him at all. Though again, my subjective interpretation here!)
The thing that's off about calling a lot of canon FCs Mary Sues is that they're not inserts because they're being written by men (who maybe do want to be inside them, but, uh, not in the same way...!) Though I think the principle stands because there's a perception with some of these characters that they're not being treated as real people, so much as the beloveds of the writers, given all the breaks and Can Do No Wrong. (I honestly adore Sam Carter but at the same time I understand why she gets the 'Sue label, and would have a hard time arguing it's undeserved. Doesn't stop me from loving her, though; one person's Sue is another one's heroine...)
--Which maybe it where we'd want fandom to move to? "Yes, I agree she's a Sue - so what?"
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winterfish
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Date: 2010-04-21 07:59 am (UTC)The thing that's off about calling a lot of canon FCs Mary Sues is that they're not inserts because they're being written by men (who maybe do want to be inside them, but, uh, not in the same way...!) Though I think the principle stands because there's a perception with some of these characters that they're not being treated as real people, so much as the beloveds of the writers, given all the breaks and Can Do No Wrong. (I honestly adore Sam Carter but at the same time I understand why she gets the 'Sue label, and would have a hard time arguing it's undeserved. Doesn't stop me from loving her, though; one person's Sue is another one's heroine...)
--Which maybe it where we'd want fandom to move to? "Yes, I agree she's a Sue - so what?"