more on Vorkosigans

[xparrot]

So I am 100 pages into Memory!

Recent thoughts, in no particular order and with no regard for coherency:

--gnine, I can see why Mirror Dance threw you off; it's not just that it's dark but that it's even more bipolar than most, starting off so funny (Bel <3) and then Taura (<3) both going "O RLY?" when "Miles" shows up without Quinn) but then everything goes to hell...and gets worse...and then gets better? for Mark at least - and there is thought-dead angst! - and Cordelia is made of so much awesome...and then gets much, much worse (the torture uuuuurgh way too much for me)...but then! the end with Miles & Mark as full brothers at last (and Cordelia being all 'I have 2 sons! :D') = SO FREAKING CUTE. So yeah, I liked it, but ow whiplash!

--sholio, so I take it Mark was your favorite? ^_^ Such wonderful character development there. & I can see why upon your first reading you were vaguely resentful of Ivan usurping his fraternal role, so to speak. Fortunately Mark and Ivan are about as different "brothers" as anyone could have, by any possible definition; and Miles himself has more than enough love and loyalty to give, and an eternal need to get more...

--Poor Galeni...I could be wrong but I have a hunch that Gregor (<3) is going to woo your ladylove as his Empress.

--Speaking of romance, Admiral Naismith kirking up the galaxy = heeeeee~ (yes, charisma and brilliance is well-nigh irresistible!)

--Except Admiral Naismith is no more(?), and I feel for you, Miles, I do, but, but...how could you do that to Illyan!?!? ;___; (Illyan who gnine & I totally called as Illya Kuryakin-inspired, even before looking it up and finding that Bujold has copped to it. Hee~.) And Cordelia was just discussing with Aral in Mirror Dance, how Miles needs Naismith to stay sane (by his own special unique definition of "sane". Which is the same one his mother uses, and the rest of the universe is too terrified to disagree!)(Have I mentioned lately how much I adore Cordelia? Because I really adore Cordelia.)

--OH IVAN I LOVE YOU FOREVER. (ice water bath and then moving in, because he may be an obnoxious upperclass twit but when he knows his cousin needs him to be there, he'll be there. Whether Miles wants him to be or not. AWW!)

Okay now must go read more!

Comments

[sholio]

sholio, so I take it Mark was your favorite? ^_^

Yep yep. I figured you'd guess. (MAAAAARK! ♥)

And yeah, that is exactly what happened the first time, although I don't think I was aware of it at the time -- I couldn't warm up to Ivan because I was totally gone for Mark, and his weird enemies/rivals/brothers relationship with Miles. I couldn't seem to handle the idea of Miles having more than one "brother"...

Luckily, I've mellowed considerably over the years, and apparently I have completely lost the need to see my favorite character relationship as the ~specialest~ and ~best~. Actually, I've gone completely the other way -- these days, it's completely incomprehensible to me that I used to be that way, because now I want my favorite characters to have a bunch of different important relationships with other people, and I find it a bit claustrophobic and weird to read something in which the main characters' only important relationship is with each other.

And like you said, Ivan and Mark are so utterly different, and the relationships they have with Miles are so completely different, that I haven't got an ounce of jealousy or resentment towards either one of them, and in fact I find the way that they all three play off each other completely delightful. It's a good thing for Miles that he has them both!

... and aww, man, isn't it neat how Bujold takes the silly sci-fi trope of the "evil clone" and makes a story out of it? All Mark's issues with identity and his shaky concept of self ... I hadn't re-read Mirror Dance in its entirety since I first read it in 1996-ish (it was too much of an emotional roller coaster; I'd re-read parts until I had them memorized, but I couldn't bring myself to re-read the whole book), and so reading it now, I appreciated it all over again. It's simply a very well-written book, I think -- she does a marvelous job of developing the evolution of Mark's entire view of the universe and his place in it. I had never noticed, for example, that Mark's own narrative voice never refers to himself by name until Miles' death scene -- did you notice that? The scene immediately after Miles gets shot is the first time in the whole book that he thinks of himself as "Mark" -- in fact, "Mark" is the very first word that opens the next scene. The book is full of those little touches; there is similar nuance to the process by which he starts thinking of Cordelia, Aral et al in terms of their family relationship to him -- as "mother", "father", etc.

... in fact, I could talk about Mirror Dance for a very long time. (The end! So cute! ♥ ♥ ♥)

I need to read Memory -- I haven't re-read that one yet, and aside from remembering the gist of the basic plot, I don't remember a single other thing about it. Maybe I'll start it tonight ...

[alessandriana.livejournal.com]

--OH IVAN I LOVE YOU FOREVER. (ice water bath and then moving in, because he may be an obnoxious upperclass twit but when he knows his cousin needs him to be there, he'll be there. Whether Miles wants him to be or not. AWW!)

<33333333333

That's gotta be in my top ~three favorite Ivan scenes, barring a couple from A Civil Campaign. (Although with any luck the new Ivan book will add some more to that list!) :D

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

It's a good thing for Miles that he has them both!

Miles needs everyone he can get! (...perhaps more crucially, everyone else needs to spread the Miles around as much as they can. Elena had it right back in Warrior's Apprentice, that if you're not careful he'll swallow you without even meaning to...he's like a sun, great to be in his orbit but you don't want to fall in!)

and aww, man, isn't it neat how Bujold takes the silly sci-fi trope of the "evil clone" and makes a story out of it? All Mark's issues with identity and his shaky concept of self

Yes, that was quite wonderfully done! I especially loved Cordelia laying out the Betan rules of legal relationships for clones, and they all accepting Mark as family, because he is. And the name games, yes - it's interesting how she reflects (mirrors!) that same name-avoidance later, when writing amnesiac Miles (such a relief when the narrative finally uses his name again!) There was a lot of that - like Mark thinking about how Miles isn't a man but a mob, in reference to all of Miles's many acquaintances - and then Mark gets his black gang, dark reflection. Very niftily done. (...can I admit to having to fight pangs of jealousy when reading? Bujold writes what I want to write, how I want to write - only better than I can, waaah!)

And Memory - am about halfway through now, shaping up to be interesting...(though oh no, Illyan!!!! ;___;)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

...So is one of your other favorites perhaps the bit where he's crying in the gazebo in Mirror Dance? Because I rather awwwed at that a lot... ^^

(I'm very looking forward to A Civil Campaign, gnine loved it, said it's hilarious! ^^)

[ah-chan.livejournal.com]

*squee* I love love love Memory - it's my favourite of the series, and one of the books I re-read quite often for comfort. All I can say is - enjoy!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I am now at page 300 or so and Miles has become Imperial Auditor and oh I hope that sticks, because it is the perfect job for him (and I was terrified for Illyan but now it seems like there's evil plotting afoot and with Miles (and faithful donkey Ivan!) on the case, it must be overturned!)(which is to say, yeah, wasn't sure for a while there but right now am loving it! ^^)

[bard2003.livejournal.com]

o it`s sticks all right!
i am so glad to hear that more people read those books! YAY! (i actually loved vorkosigans much better then harry potter and was somewhat disappointed that all of my friends didn`t agree with me.

[mahaliem.livejournal.com]

Memory is by far my favorite Vorkosigan book. I love it so much!

[ah-chan.livejournal.com]

:DDDD In a way, I feel it's quite unfair to compare the Vorkosigan series with Harry Potter - they're doing different things, and aimed at different audiences. (In other words, I agree with you XD.)

[nightwalker.livejournal.com]

... So I really need to read these books, then, huh?

[sholio]

Memory - definitely need to reread it, because I think my myopic focus on a) Mark and b) the space-opera aspects of the series made me judge it harshly the first time; I remember not liking it much. But rereading the books now that I'm older and more mature has been such a fascinating experience, because, while I still like the aspects of them that I did when I was younger, I'm now enjoying a whole bunch of different aspects of them as well! And I think that I would probably get a lot more enjoyment out of the books I found kind of dull the first time around. I'm much more about the ensemble this time around. I don't think I realized how much more of a one character/one relationship fan I used to be as a teenager.

[serrende.livejournal.com]

Another Mark fan here, and Mirror Dance is my favourite of the lot though I re-read A Civil Campaign more often (that and Memory are the double runner-ups for me). Despite the book's darkness I rarely can stop re-reading the whole thing even when I've just intended to look up a passage or dip into a scene temporarily (but I do tend to be skippy in the beginning and during the whole debacle at Bharaputra). But I read the series in the "wrong" order, starting with A Civil Campaign, then Mirror Dance, then a bit haphazardly here and there as the mood took me and I could find new volumes.

Ivan really is good in that book, isn't he? Mirror Dance too, I think, like the scene where Mark found him crying in the Emperor's garden. ETA: Whoops, now that I've read your comments I see you were already pointing it out. I'd forgotten it was in the gazebo. A word I will forever associate with the book To Say Nothing Of The Dog/irrelevant

Another interesting moment, if not as strong and emotional, was when Ivan shows his dislike of Mark (upon the latter's first arrival on Barrayar) and Mark finds it quite welcome.

[serrende.livejournal.com]

Hey, can I just chime in here and say this resonates with me a lot? Not just as a Mark fan, but as someone who also don't much like series where the main character only have one importat relationship - nay, the more the better! (Except for me I think I've always needed big ensembles in the cast, but I was still way more overreactive in younger days about certain Special Relationships concerning My Favourite in various fandoms.)

The name thing is really interesting. I've read Bujold say that in retrospect, she regrets that Brothers in Arms was written from Miles' perspective only, that it would have been stronger if Mark had been a POV character as well, as in Mirror Dance. But I have to wonder how she would do that, when he didn't think of himself as Mark back then...

Memory really is an excellent book, even without Mark. I've found re-reads of it to be quite rewarding.

[sholio]

Except for me I think I've always needed big ensembles in the cast, but I was still way more overreactive in younger days about certain Special Relationships concerning My Favourite in various fandoms.

Hee, actually this describes me to an absolute "T" as well, because I have always loved large ensembles, but also would fixate fannishly on a single individual (or two -- usually a favorite character and a favorite relationship with someone else) in the ensemble. I don't think I realized I was doing it, at least not to the extent that I was doing it, 'til I stopped doing it -- not that I don't still have favorites, but I'm nothing like as focused on them as I used to be, and I much prefer to be fascinated by the whole web of different relationships that develops in an ensemble cast (like the one represented by your icon! *g*).

[sholio]

Oops, also meant to respond to the second part of your comment as well ...!

I've read Bujold say that in retrospect, she regrets that Brothers in Arms was written from Miles' perspective only, that it would have been stronger if Mark had been a POV character as well, as in Mirror Dance. But I have to wonder how she would do that, when he didn't think of himself as Mark back then...

Huh ...! You know, as much as I love Mark, I'm not sure if I would have wanted to get his POV in Brothers in Arms. For one thing, there's the identity issue, like you said, but I also think that it worked quite well to leave Mark and his motivations as a huge enigma that wasn't really unraveled until Mirror Dance. It seems to me that most of what she could've revealed about Mark as a POV character in Brothers in Arms would've been rehashed in the sequel anyway, so saving Mark back as a viewpoint character for the book that is all about him makes plenty of sense to me.

It's nice to know I'm not the only one who thoroughly adores the messed-up little jerk, though. *g*

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

The Vorkosigan books are definitely more my kind of books than Harry Potter - they're so different I can see having a preference for either one, but for me, I'm with Miles ^^

(please don't let me know what happens next, though, even if just to confirm what I say I want to happen! Part of the pleasure for me with these is reading them unspoiled ^^)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

You're the 3rd person on my flist to say this, and most of the way through I can see why! (I don't know what my favorite is yet, but it's definitely up there - I love Miles on Barrayar especially, and all the characters there!)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

That would be a big YESSSSS (really, they've got fabulous chars and comedy and tragedy and h/c and mystery and scifi action - the full package!)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

This series is actually about my favorite kind of cast - a big ensemble, but all focused around a single point. Series with massive sprawling casts and mostly separate interactions and storylines I can enjoy, but often don't find myself falling fannishly in love with (Babylon 5 is the main exception to this I can think of, but its core cast was still smaller and more interconnected than something like, say, Game of Thrones or BSG.) And though I say I'm an OTPer I tend not to like myopic focus. So the main-char-with-boatload-of-friends/family/rivals/enemies model really works for me; a lot of my favorite series these days that I can think of (books or other) follow it (Dresden, Avatar:TLA, One Piece.) For a lot of them, the main character in question won't even be my favorite; but they serve as a...good point of reference? To tie everything together. (Actually for most of these types I don't have a favorite; I love nearly everybody, though there are definitely chars and relationships I get particularly squeeful over ^^)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I am going to be rereading all of this series regularly, I have the impression (...considering I've already gone back and read bits, when I still have much of the series left to read...! ^^;)

--The gazebo was in the garden, so you were still right! (for me, "gazebo" always makes me think of the dread gazebo of D&D legend. It's a ridiculous word regardless! ^^)

Another interesting moment, if not as strong and emotional, was when Ivan shows his dislike of Mark (upon the latter's first arrival on Barrayar) and Mark finds it quite welcome.

I really liked this bit, too!

(There's a lot of chars I love in these books, but I admit some of my favorite stuff is anything with Miles and any of his "brothers" - Ivan, Mark, and Gregor - he's got very different relationships with all of them, but they're all special. And Mark with both Ivan and Gregor is almost as fascinating as Miles with them...)

[alessandriana.livejournal.com]

Oh yes, absolutely. XD I love that scene for how it shows how much Ivan actually cares about his cousin, even if he's only willing to admit it under duress and the influence of alcohol~! And for the tantalizing hints of what they get up to when they're not immersed in Grand Space Adventures (tm). (Man, I would really love a better look at their normal, day-to-day life before Miles ran off to space~ it must have been a fascinating childhood.)

Incidentally, I also like that one for the look at Mark and Ivan's relationship-- it's sort of a mirror (heh) of the scene from Mirror Dance where Mark dumps Ivan into the pumping station, and it shows how much Mark has changed-- he's coming to get Ivan out of the dark, rather than leaving him there. <3 Oh, Mark. I don't know how LMB does it, but I seriously adore ALL of these characters.

[petronia.livejournal.com]

Illyan who gnine & I totally called as Illya Kuryakin-inspired, even before looking it up and finding that Bujold has copped to it

Jeebus, GIANT LIGHTBULB just went off in these here parts. o_O

[serrende.livejournal.com]

I much prefer to be fascinated by the whole web of different relationships that develops in an ensemble cast (like the one represented by your icon! *g*).

:D Yeah, One Piece really is good for that, isn't it? Deep bonds but with different dynamics for each relationship. It's very rewarding to explore, IMO. (And unlike the Vorkosigan saga, the canon source isn't prose and not even originally in English. That frees the imagination for fanworks for me (also, the creator is much more unlikely to come upon one of my fics by accident...)

[sholio]

Hee! Yes! Exactly! Writing fic for prose works (in the same language) is harder in general, IMHO, because I find myself either copying the author's style in a conscious pastiche, or writing in my own style and then feeling like the narrative voice is off. I think that's another thing that makes it a bit uncomfortable for me. (Not that I never do, but it's an odd feeling when I do ...) And knowing that the author is almost certainly never going to come upon what I've written is a definite plus ...

[naye]

Not reading the spoilers, just - agh! I knew there was something I forgot to bring down from the farm...!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hee! One of the best things about seeing MUNCLE was just to be able to recognize the impact it had on fangirls of a certain age...

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Dangit!! Next time? (you've got enough to read anyway, I know, but...!)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Heee, I would love a bit of Miles & Ivan (& Gregor! & Elena!) growing-up-together stories...we get mentions here and there, which are always cute and/or hilarious (and usually bad for Ivan, because kid!Miles was a menace! XD)

I love Mark & Ivan's relationship - as I said below, some of my most favorite stuff in the books is anything with Miles and his "brothers" - Ivan, Mark, and Gregor. (Am really hoping the Ivan book might have a bit of Ivan with Gregor, because that's not something we've gotten yet, except with Miles, and they did grow up together, too...)