on The Last Jedi

[xparrot]

So, went to the new Star Wars last night!

I loved The Force Awakens, in this passionate nostalgic made-me-feel-like-I-was-ten-again way. This one -- I am not quite sure how I felt about it. It wasn't a bad movie. But I'm not convinced it was a good one? And as a Star Wars fan, it left me disappointed.

(Though less than I might have been, because, even more than The Force Awakens, it isn't "really" Star Wars to me. Or, it's Star Wars, but it's an AU, the way the new Star Trek movies are an AU. It's an interesting story, but it's not the one true future I accept for the original trilogy.)

There is a lot to recommend it. It had some absolutely stunning shots, both action sequences (the opening space battle and the climactic fight on the salt flats were both incredible) and other (Luke at the end silhouetted against the double suns was maybe cliche but so beautifully so -- as soon as you saw that shot, you knew it was going to be his last, just as it was his introduction.)

The story had some interesting twists and turns, and, especially with the the shadow of Rogue One, managed some actual tension that was surprisingly effective given that this is the second of a trilogy. I knew that the heroes should survive, and yet there were a couple moments that I was genuinely in doubt.

There were some cheer-worthy moments (my audience especially responded to Leia saving herself with the Force and Luke after the dust clears from Kylo's attack) and some laugh-out-loud bits (Luke tossing away the lightsaber especially is awesome). The fuzzy puffins (Porgs?) were adorable -- I really loved how they mixed in so much puppets and practical effects with the CGI, it gave everything a more solid, grounded feel.

And Carrie Fisher was heartbreaking but also amazing, and that Leia and Luke did get a goodbye was wonderful.

But the story also had a lot of hiccups. And thematically it was this uncomfortable mix of things I love and things I hate.

Story-wise, there were pacing issues overall -- this is the longest Star Wars film to date, and it felt it (it felt even longer than it was, and not in a good way). In particular the whole sequence on the Las Vegas planet was really drawn out and weirdly positioned; it took away from the urgency of the Resistance's situation that Finn and co. could take the time to go off on a casino adventure.

And the casino sequence was meant to be important thematically, considering it comes back to it in the end. It's trying to cast the Star Wars resistance as not just the fight against facism but also class war, the decadent one-percents versus the noble proletariat; but it managed to be both hamhanded about that and yet not convincing? (Or maybe that's because I've been getting back into One Piece, which tackles a similar theme in a similarly fantastical setting, except in ways that are viscerally stomach-turning and undeniable. In TLJ, the only abuse of power we actually witness on the casino world are the kids getting whipped by the (non-human) stablemaster; it's worker on worker, while the high-rollers in the casino display decadence but not really evil? We're shown that some of their wealth comes from immoral sources, but that sets up the premise that some wealth is or could be moral, it's where your money comes from that matters. Which, well, Star Wars is a fantasy, when one of your main characters is a princess, you're going to have trouble with your class warfare analogies. But this movie didn't manage to navigate it particularly well.)

There were also some issues of logic, that I'm not sure whether were due to poorly done exposition or just no explanation (Poe's mutiny was either due to him being incredibly stupid or incredibly bad leadership, and I'm not quite sure which it was? Was the failure there that he didn't understand a pretty simple and logical plan, or that the admiral failed to explain her plan for some reason but just expected it to be followed? Which, uh, if you're the leader of a group of rebels, you can't really expect blind loyalty?) Also a few weirdly played red herrings (I'm not sure why the audience was kept in suspense about how the First Order was tracking the Resistance fleet -- it set up expectations for a big reveal, a traitor or Finn having a tracker or something; and then it was just technobabble?)

Then, maybe my biggest problem with the story -- Finn was my favorite character in TFA. He's sweet and heroic and I adore John Boyega (especially in First Order officer costume, wowza). But Finn was ultimately useless in this movie. Not pointless -- he and Rose carried through some of the themes. But he had no impact on the story whatsoever; if you took him out of the movie, the main plot would play out exactly the same. The whole casino sequence and sneaking onto the First Order ship accomplished nothing, in the end. It was basically just an extended team-building exercise for Finn and Rose, which was cute and all, but also frustrating? I like my heroes to count for something.

(The only impact they might've had on the story was negative -- by bringing in that hacker, they might've gotten the Resistance fleet attacked? Except that was one of those logical leaps that I couldn't follow. How did Benicio del Toro's hacker know about the Resistance's escape plan? He couldn't have heard it from Finn and Rey, because they didn't know the plan themselves? Unless they did and I missed it?)

Then there was the main storyline, Rey and Luke and Kylo Ren's story. Which is where my feelings are most mixed.

It was definitely the strongest story of the movie, not plagued by the logical inconsistencies and pacing issues of the rest of it. It developed well and took the characters down complicated and compelling paths.

That being said, Rey's path could've been more complicated. There is this strange feeling throughout that Rey just isn't especially tempted by the dark side -- not even because she's that good or pure a person, but because the dark side has nothing that really interests her? When Kylo Ren makes his pitch for her to join him at the end -- what is he really offering her? She doesn't seem to enjoy using her Force abilities; they more scare her. She apparently always knew in her heart who her parents really were; that question was just a red herring. She has friends and people who care about her in the Resistance, and she knows it, while as she just saw Kylo kill his own master, so she knows the belonging and family she yearns for won't be found there. It feels like the dark side isn't really that tempting -- which makes Kylo come across that much more unsympathetic, because it's not that Rey is so strong that she can resist the darkness, but that Kylo just likes being evil.

The whole thrust of Kylo Ren's story bothers me. It's not even that I like the character, or care about him that much (at least for himself). But the main theme of it I find troubling. Ultimately, it comes down to this: While a major theme of the original trilogy is about seeing the good in anyone, about (cheesy as it may be) the power of love and compassion, the theme of this trilogy so far seems to be the opposite. Good people are good (even if they make mistakes) and bad people are bad. Finn is a good person, so stormtrooper brainwashing doesn't have any effect on him (while all those other stormtroopers are bad people so can be killed without compunction). While as conversely, reaching out to Kylo Ren does no good; he will always choose the Dark Side.

There is still one more movie, so this could still change; Kylo might have a bigger part to play in the end. But as it stands with this movie, Luke's great mistake wasn't that in a moment of weakness, he contemplated killing his own student. His mistake is that he didn't follow through. Han Solo died pointlessly, just making things worse; the galaxy would've been better off if he'd put a blaster bolt through his son's chest when he had the chance.

Rose says at the end that the way to win will be for them not to destroy what they hate but to save what they love. But everyone who loved Kylo Ren failed to save him. So the adjunct lesson becomes, save what you love -- but you better only love the right things. Loving the wrong person, the bad person who doesn't deserve it, is pointless and just fucks over the entire galaxy.

And it's all the worse because Kylo Ren isn't some random villain. This is Leia and Han's son. I grew up with Han and Leia; in that special fan way, they're like family to me. So Kylo by extension is, too -- and it's not just that he shares their blood; they and Luke and Chewie raised him. But that counts for nothing. If Kylo had been kidnapped by Snoke and raised by him, that would be one thing. But as it stands, either Leia and Han and the others are the worst parents ever; or that the dark side is just that powerful -- or they're just that weak -- that they're helpless against it.

Which is my fundamental issue with the whole movie, as a Star Wars fan. Leia and Luke and Han were my childhood heroes. And the whole point of this movie seemed to be, not just that their struggle continues, but that they were never really heroes at all. Good guys, sure; but in all their lives, they accomplished nothing that actually mattered. Defeating the Empire was pointless; in just a couple decades it rises again, as strong as ever. Their love and friendship couldn't survive the rigors that followed. They couldn't raise a child strong enough not to go full-on supervillain. They built nothing good that lasted, either personally or in the universe.

And I don't think that was accidental; I think it was meant to be a major theme, that your heroes aren't so hot after all, that you should question your past idols, that maybe everything should be torn down to restart anew. But it's not the story I wanted. Not for a universe I've loved for this long, for characters so close to my heart.

But then, as a fan, I've been through this plenty of times before. There's still one more movie; and if that one continues to bring these theme forward, well, it is what it is. I'll always have the original trilogy (and Timothy Zahn's corner of the extended universe). And the ten-year-old fangirl inside of me, who loved The Force Awakens so for being everything she dreamed -- I don't ever have to tell her that this movie happened at all.

Comments

[sheron]

While a major theme of the original trilogy is about seeing the good in anyone, about (cheesy as it may be) the power of love and compassion, the theme of this trilogy so far seems to be the opposite. Good people are good (even if they make mistakes) and bad people are bad. Finn is a good person, so stormtrooper brainwashing doesn't have any effect on him (while all those other stormtroopers are bad people so can be killed without compunction). While as conversely, reaching out to Kylo Ren does no good; he will always choose the Dark Side.

and
And I don't think that was accidental; I think it was meant to be a major theme, that your heroes aren't so hot after all, that you should question your past idols, that maybe everything should be torn down to restart anew

UGH.

On the one hand I really love the "question everything" motif (the obvious real world implications aside), but on the other hand, I really dislike the grim-darking of this sort of story into "nobody is really a hero".

:\

(I haven't seen the film yet, I"m happy to be spoiled for it though.)

[xparrot]

Yeah, that's one of those YMMV things -- I've seen reviews now praising the movie because it does overturn everything, it makes you question everything. It's so mature, modern, relevant, whatever. (and massive spoilers to follow, but so's this whole post, so...!)

For me -- I like my heroes being flawed, having struggles. But to me this movie went out of its way to make the original trilogy heroes...not dark, exactly. It doesn't present them as evil, or even as terrible people -- just useless. Their fight was ultimately futile. It's just so sad, that even if the new heroes manage to rise up, the only legacy Leia and Han and Luke actually left their galaxy was a shattered republic and a wannabe Sith lord. And it sort of makes it difficult to cheer for these new heroes; there's this sense of, what's the point? If they're likely to go on to see everything they love destroyed in their lifetimes, too...

At the same time, the movie isn't that grim-dark? There's a lot of humor (to varying degrees of success; but then that's pretty Star Wars!). And while a ton of people die, it's mostly not anyone you know well enough to care about. Except for Luke, but, well, Jedi, it's doubtful we've seen the last of him. And it's got a lot of lip-service about hope and whatever. Just, if you love the original movies, this one feels kind of like it's going, 'well, time to get over those, move on and join the new order already!'

[sheron]

Yeah, it's almost nihilistic, which is depressing. It's kind of why I noped out in the first movie, because it just felt like this shouldn't be Leia and Han's legacy.

[xparrot]

I had less trouble with it in TFA -- in part because the movie was so fast-paced it didn't give you time to contemplate it; but also because it still ended with a sense of hope -- that maybe Han's death would have some impact, and Luke and Leia were still there to carry on the fight. But this movie took the effort to ensure that any chance of a legacy for them was ground to dust.

It's hard to say it's not Star Wars, when the prequel movies are Star Wars too? And taken as a whole I think the movies are going to be the Rise and Fall and End of the Skywalker line, which is suitably epic. But yeah...it's not the story I want.

[sholio]

We just got back from it! I really enjoyed the movie, as a movie. I had a lot of fun and enjoyed the new characters, and the movie had some pretty cool moments. In particular it did some nice fakeouts, e.g. the entire maguffin-hunt-plus-heist turning out to be not The Big Victory but a total misdirect for the actual day-saving plan, or surprise!Force hologram Luke.

But I didn't feel invested, and I think your post points to some of the reasons why. I didn't come out of it wanting to write fic or pursue more stories of those characters, or with any particular desire to watch the movie again. If anything, I came out of it wanting to write my own original stories -- I felt inspired, but not to explore this world, instead to go ahead and create my own versions that take the tropes and themes and set-bits from the movie that I loved, and repurposed them for stories in which I control the ending.

I also felt like this movie confirmed for me that the new movies aren't my future Star Wars headcanon. They're fun as AUs (very pretty AUs!), but AUs is what they are to me.

... also Orion and I agreed the casino-destroying scene was completely LOTWUT. XD It's pretty much just destruction for the sake of destruction; it doesn't change anything, doesn't improve anybody's lives, just destroyed a lot of property and threatened and maybe hurt people who were not individually at fault. It's "teenage shoplifting to stick it to the Man" level activism. (Though I did really enjoy the twist that we thought they were going to another seedy bar like the SW universe is full of, and then we ended up basically in Space Monaco.)

[xparrot]

Yeah, I think I'd have enjoyed it a lot more if I'd been able to think of it the whole time as an Star Wars AU, rather than "the real story". Like, I can appreciate what they were going for? And it is fun to see how it took all the tropes/plotlines from Empire Strikes Back and subverted them. And I can see how you could find the ideas inspiring!

But as it stands, I had a hard time really emotionally connecting with the movie -- I came out of TFA loving the new characters, but after this one I feel like I love Rey and Finn and Poe a little less? And I'm not sure how much of that is how they were in this movie, and how much is that the movie itself bothered me enough about other things that it just left me cold on them too?

(and I do blame the casino scene for a good chunk of that, to be honest -- the movie's pace comes to such a screeching halt there that I started thinking about other things during it! One of the reasons TFA worked for me is that it goes so quickly you get swept up without having a chance to contemplate the plot holes and whatnot. I feel like I was enjoying the movie well enough until that sequence, but then that gave me time to mull, to my eventual dissatisfaction...)

[i_am_zan]

I saw it the other day with the family.

I kind of loved it a lot. I had accepted a long time ago (no pun intended) with the advent of the prequels that any films coming out of the Star Wars Universe will never be quite the same as my beloved 'A New Hope' ... and choose to dwell on the things I love about the film.

One thing about TLJ I will say is that I fell in love with Luke Skywalker/Mark Hamill all over again. I too was delightfully surprised with him chucking that lightsaber over his shoulder. He is still the hero I thought him to be and still learning from his master. (Although I loved the Yoda/Luke scenes - I always will. On the one hand film-wise I thought 'No! Why?', on the other hand I also though 'Yes THIS!' - but like you said - something that could have happened in an AU fanfic.) ... and I like that Luke is still being Luke. I thought the arrogance and hubris he spoke of was one of those things that teachers do go through, so it was with Qui Gon, as it was with Obiwan. He is only human. I loved his end scene too. And I guess it opens up the avenue that Luke is gonna haunt Kylo for killing his buddy Han forever!!! ^_^

I was momentarily disappointed that there was no great Cthulhu scene in that underwater cave. Though perhaps that would have been too predictable.

I do agree about the pacing being somewhat jarred by the casino scene. Although it does make me wonder about Benicio del Toro's role in the next film. His role here was left too open to leave one thinking is it just 'that' for him in the grand scheme of things. But it could be just that - as you say - a red herring.

There are things that I am not entirely fond of in the film, and I agree that Finn did not have too much to do, and had hoped that he would be given more to do other than appear, as if lost and clueless.

Laura Dern's fantastically, beautiful purple/lavender aesthetics does not survive into the next film.

That 'furry dice' thing bothered me a little. (ok a lot actually for all the connotations I have with it - which is probably just me being me)

Captain Phasma having the end such as she did - one thinks of all the great side characters that were given unsatisfactory endings. Boba Fett, Darth Maul.

I was sad that Scottish actor Brian Vernel, who was the smuggler Bala-Tik did not re-appear again in some guise - as an agent of the First Order perhaps. This is just me having a thing for the Scots. Those accents man. Although I am glad to see Scotland well represented in the films, and I'm not just talking about Ewan MacGregor and his uncle Denis Lawson

Also I do love the new creatures that we were introduced to. Those crystal foxes were like some kind of amazing Legendary Pokemon, and the Porgs were cute - but why they would set up home on a ship with a predator makes no sense to me. They just need to show me fruit and veg like the Star Wars version of bananas then maybe I'd accept it. No one goes veggie overnight. Well at least not a carnivore like Chewie anyways. Plus spit roasted - it did look like it might have tasted ok, good even. And I was hoping for the Cthulhoid monster from the sea - but maybe in the next one eh? ^_^

I loved all the Luke scenes, the Leia scenes - even the cheesy majestic one of our beloved Princess floating through the debris and fighting the effects of the vacuum of a space death (real or imagined) with the force. Every scene with Leia in had me in tears. Yes really I was in tears intermittently throughout the film. I guess being so invested in the characters you love does that to you, plus the poignant thought always at the back of my mind that Carrie Fisher is no longer with us.

I think that there is a lot to love about the film - for me, and a few things that would jar it for me. It has a very different feel and take from TFA. Indeed a different feel and take from the prequels, and definitely from the originals. As you say, comparing them with what happened to the Star Trek storyline in the new films. (that as an aside - if you watched ST: Discovery, I would love to hear your views on that too ^_^)

And, and you were ten as well when you watched Star Wars? Really? I don't believe it.

Ok digressing there. Going back to TLJ ... characters that are slowly growing on me - Hux and yes, I have to admit it ... Kylo too. ^_^

All in all the Star Wars films are still doing what they always do, create friendly debate and banter over what fans love and hate about them.

Lengthwise - personally I didn't have a problem with it, though my son thought it long - but I had put it down to age. He is 15 and sitting down for a long period of time (unless it is Skyrim, Overwatch, Portal or some such) isn't his thing. We purposely kept the children and the children's friend between the two of us, because my hubby cannot sit through such a movie - the first time anyway- next to each other. He thinks I emote too much ahahahaha! I don't blame him really.) My girl was next to me and she held my hand through the film.

It was a great film for me and I may just go see it again. *HUGS* I love your review because I can understand that there will be things that not everyone will love about it and I like to see others' points of view. Because like I said sometimes I get too invested and don't see the other side, and I think it's nice to have someone point out things I might have missed otherwise.

A couple of other films I'm looking forward to but with a lot of trepidation because of how much a part of my childhood the books are the 'Wrinkle in Time' books, and although newer, 'Ready Player One' - Ernest Cline.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend, and uhmm oops long comment is long ...

[xparrot]

Awww, hee -- I'm glad you enjoyed the movie so (and glad my ranting didn't detract from that enjoyment!)

Don't have much to add, but the Porgs -- I think they just realized that Chewie wouldn't eat them? They're likely predators themselves (fish-eaters, anyway?) so they probably like that he eats meat otherwise, as they can get the scraps. And hey, my cats sleep with me even though I'm not a vegetarian!

Those crystal frost foxes were gorgeous, too.

And everything with Leia/Carrie Fisher was heartbreaking (I think that's one of the things that made this movie seem even darker to me, because I knew this was the end of Leia's story, too, even though she doesn't die in it?) At least she got a goodbye with Luke.

Well, I did watch Star Wars when I was ten, but that wasn't in the theater. I didn't see any of the original trilogy in the theater, and while I did see them when I was younger, I was around nine or ten when I really got into them, as far as I recall.

I haven't seen ST: Discovery yet, am kind of nervous about it. And A Wrinkle in Time -- oh yeah, those books were a big part of my childhood as well. I hadn't seen the full trailer for that movie until now, and...I'm not sure what I think. That's a hell of a book to adapt, but it looks interesting, anyway. (At least in the preview, the girl playing Meg looks very Meg-like, but there wasn't enough of Charles Wallace to get a sense of him...)

[naye]

Ahhh, I guess I'm not really seeing Kylo Ren as Leia and Han's son but as Anakin's grandson? And he is doing VERY WELL at being a total tool making poor choices. Nature or nurture, you can't lead an angsty teen to good decision? Also we don't know how old he was when Luke took him to train - if Luke followed old Jedi tradition and started with basically toddlers NO WONDER he's all "JEDIS ARE MADE OF FAIL" because uh. Yes they kind of are? Or rather - their ways of taking very young kids away from their parents and raising them in weird non-attachment, feeling-fearing ways... didn't end very well last time and if that's what Luke based his teachings on then. Whoops.

Plus he's a good villain; I enjoy cheering for people trying to kill him. He's certainly more fun than Snoke who was a wet blanket from the uncanny valley.

But I'm curious to see what IX will do with the story. What it will do with the themes from the original trilogy and the ones explored in VIII. I think my final enjoyment of this new trilogy will all hinge on how they follow through on everything here. (I have a tired suspicion that they will follow through with Straight Romance Is Pasted On Yay because that's definiteyl where they seem to be heading with that particular thing. Sigh. I almost prefer accidental twincest to 'straight leads of opposite genders must be paired off'...)

[xparrot]

Yeah, for me, saying Kylo Ren is like Anakin just makes it worse -- one of the things I love most about the original trilogy is that defeating Vader doesn't mean killing him bloodily (however much he might deserve it) but showing mercy and love and saving him from his own darkness.

While as this movie, and Kylo Ren's story, seems to be saying, no, you're naive for believing that; some people are just evil assholes and all they are good for is dying. Good people can still reach out to them, because that's what good people do; but it's ultimately futile and stupid. Those who do bad things and make bad choices are unworthy of sympathy, and it ultimately doesn't matter whether they arose from trauma and abuse, because bad is bad and the only way to deal with it is to kill bad people.

Or maybe that's not where the story is going? I don't really want Kylo Ren redeemed; he's past that point. But I have a hard time taking unreserved satisfaction in his defeat, when he's the only legacy Leia and Han have left. If they had other children, or if they'd built a republic that lasted more than a couple decades, I'd be more okay with it. But as it stands, Leia and Han should never have had children, they fucked over the whole galaxy by doing so, and that's...sad, to me?

I guess for me, Kylo Ren falls into this uncanny valley of villains. There are some villains I love to hate, that I want to see defeated (Doflamingo, HOLY SHIT I want him dead). Then there are villains I feel sorry for, that I want to see redeemed (even if they don't deserve it) (Loki!) Kylo Ren should be more the love-to-hate type -- but he has that personal connection. His death would make some of my favorite characters of all time sad, because he's their son/nephew, and that makes me sad. Leia and Han and Luke didn't deserve this.

(Ideally, at this point, I'd like Kylo Ren not to be personally redeemed but to serve some greater purpose -- like Gollum in LotR, who doesn't choose good, but who is still instrumental to the Ring's destruction. Saving Gollum was the right choice for Frodo to make. And I want Luke not killing Kylo Ren to have been the right choice to make, too -- I want the story to prove that showing mercy and compassion (deserved or not) is the right thing to do.)

So yeah, a lot of how I feel depends on how IX carries through or not with these themes. (and I admit, some of my feeling is this suspicion that it's not going to do a great job of it?)

Also, re: the romance, while I'm pretty neutral on any of the options (I mildly ship Finn/Rey, but I really don't know if Rey is even going to survive the next movie as-is; she feels like she's heading toward apotheosis) -- yeah, it's likely to be straight, but unless things change drastically, it's going to be interracial. And that is, sadly, still a pretty big step for Hollywood.

[i_am_zan]

Sneaking in because I couldn't stay away - I'm with you on Loki! Ahahahaha! ^_^

I'm also with you on the romance stuff here pretty neutral but (perhaps a slight hope for the Poe/Finn ship)

... and I seriously hope they don't, absolutely DO NOT give us a Kylo/Rey thing because that really would just be a sad way for things to go.