on negativity in fandom
Nov. 17th, 2019 04:29 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
xparrotI was writing this whole long rambling post about responsibility, and apologizing for and trying to minimize accidental harm, but then it changed tangents and I think what I most want to say is this:
In fandom, please be careful about how negative you are, and how you are negative.
This relates to anything from offering unsolicited crit on a fic (or heck, solicited crit) to hating on a part of canon, or to being an anti, or to discussing your dislike of a popular fic trope.
I'm not saying this for reasons of courtesy and manners, though I think that counts for something. But it's really for a much more selfish reason: Negativity can make people disengage, and that's overall detrimental to fandom. Which I selfishly care about, as a fan.
Spoilers: fandom is a really fucking emotional thing for most people. Our interests and obsessions are a pretty core part of our identities, and we wouldn't be devoting time and energy to them if we weren't mentally and emotionally engaged. Hearing that someone hates something you love can hurt, even when there is no hurt intended. That's even before we get into the question of fanfic and fanart and vids and other fan creations, and how personal one's art is to most artists. Especially for amateur artists, who aren't getting paid and so the only impetus to share our creations is for emotional validation.
There have been more than a few fic writers who have quit writing because of crit -- because getting crit is really hard even for many professional writers, and people writing for fun may not have the emotional energy to deal with it, or just don't want to, and so they stop, or stop sharing their work publicly. But it's not just direct crit that can do this. If you're writing a trope you love, or a pairing you love, and then you see people talking about how much they dislike that trope or how gross that pairing is, it can make you hesitate to keep writing, or at least hesitate to share your work, knowing you might be inviting crit. Or even just thinking that no one is going to want to read it. (Then, some of us are the opposite and such things inspire us to keep going out of pure spite; but even for me that's something I have to work myself into and it takes its own emotional toll.)
And this hurts, not just the writer, but the fandom as a whole, because someone quitting writing means less fic in the fandom for the rest of us. And even if it's not fic that you like personally, that you'd be happy not to see any more of -- someone else surely would like it, and want more, and do you want to spoil their fun, too?
Likewise, talking about disliking canon can stop discussion, because it can be hard to contradict someone -- especially someone with whom you share a fandom, so there can be that sense of comradery, being in the same community. So if you see a fan friend talking about how X canon thing sucks, rather than argue back that you love that thing, it can be easier to not rock the boat, to not say anything -- but then not feeling comfortable to talk about what you love in a fandom can drain your interest in it, and with it the fandom; and then you drift away, and the fandom shrinks.
To be clear, I'm not saying don't be negative. For one thing, sometimes it's important to do so. Calling out things like racism or toxic behavior can be seen as negative but can also be really crucial for the overall health and safety of a community and the members in it. Pointing out that a fic isn't sufficiently tagged can be a type of criticism (and can hurt a writer) but may help many other fans who could be impacted.
For two, complaining about what we dislike as well as what we like is a big part of fanning for a lot of us -- for me definitely; I enjoy a good hard critical analysis, and I'll be honest, sometimes I take guiltily gleeful pleasure in shredding something I didn't like. And sometimes, too, it feels great to talk about and find out I'm not alone in hating X thing. But I try -- have been trying harder -- to limit how I do it. When I criticize canon, I try to tag/mark it for negativity and squee-harshing, so people who don't want to see it can avoid it. When I criticize fanworks (either a specific fic I don't like, or a trope/ship/etc) I try to ensure it's not personal, and/or to keep it in more private locked channels that won't get back to the writer(s), because that's really all about me and what I like; it's not another fan's fault that I have my preferences, and the last thing I want to do is get in the way of the fun of someone else who is enjoying the fandom as much as I am, if in a different way.
I'm far from great at this -- I've hurt friends on more than one occasion without meaning to because I got too into a fannish debate and didn't realize the feelings I was provoking. I have no doubt that I've discouraged other fans from fanning on and writing things they enjoy, and I'm sorry for that. But I'm trying, and will keep trying -- I've been trying harder especially lately because my current fandom is quite small; just about all of us non-lurkers in it have interacted with each other to some extent, so it makes any interactions more personal than they would be in a larger fandom in which many people don't know each other. I'm not perfect but I'm doing my best. And hopefully my fandoms will be a more encouraging place for it.
tl;dr: make squee, not war?
ETA: this post's original subject was "not-so-vague vague-posting" because I was originally inspired to write it by a mess in my current fandom. My original intent morphed in the writing of it, though, to be more about my own changing feelings about how I interact with the fan communities I'm in, for better or for worse, so I've adjusted the subject to match.
In fandom, please be careful about how negative you are, and how you are negative.
This relates to anything from offering unsolicited crit on a fic (or heck, solicited crit) to hating on a part of canon, or to being an anti, or to discussing your dislike of a popular fic trope.
I'm not saying this for reasons of courtesy and manners, though I think that counts for something. But it's really for a much more selfish reason: Negativity can make people disengage, and that's overall detrimental to fandom. Which I selfishly care about, as a fan.
Spoilers: fandom is a really fucking emotional thing for most people. Our interests and obsessions are a pretty core part of our identities, and we wouldn't be devoting time and energy to them if we weren't mentally and emotionally engaged. Hearing that someone hates something you love can hurt, even when there is no hurt intended. That's even before we get into the question of fanfic and fanart and vids and other fan creations, and how personal one's art is to most artists. Especially for amateur artists, who aren't getting paid and so the only impetus to share our creations is for emotional validation.
There have been more than a few fic writers who have quit writing because of crit -- because getting crit is really hard even for many professional writers, and people writing for fun may not have the emotional energy to deal with it, or just don't want to, and so they stop, or stop sharing their work publicly. But it's not just direct crit that can do this. If you're writing a trope you love, or a pairing you love, and then you see people talking about how much they dislike that trope or how gross that pairing is, it can make you hesitate to keep writing, or at least hesitate to share your work, knowing you might be inviting crit. Or even just thinking that no one is going to want to read it. (Then, some of us are the opposite and such things inspire us to keep going out of pure spite; but even for me that's something I have to work myself into and it takes its own emotional toll.)
And this hurts, not just the writer, but the fandom as a whole, because someone quitting writing means less fic in the fandom for the rest of us. And even if it's not fic that you like personally, that you'd be happy not to see any more of -- someone else surely would like it, and want more, and do you want to spoil their fun, too?
Likewise, talking about disliking canon can stop discussion, because it can be hard to contradict someone -- especially someone with whom you share a fandom, so there can be that sense of comradery, being in the same community. So if you see a fan friend talking about how X canon thing sucks, rather than argue back that you love that thing, it can be easier to not rock the boat, to not say anything -- but then not feeling comfortable to talk about what you love in a fandom can drain your interest in it, and with it the fandom; and then you drift away, and the fandom shrinks.
To be clear, I'm not saying don't be negative. For one thing, sometimes it's important to do so. Calling out things like racism or toxic behavior can be seen as negative but can also be really crucial for the overall health and safety of a community and the members in it. Pointing out that a fic isn't sufficiently tagged can be a type of criticism (and can hurt a writer) but may help many other fans who could be impacted.
For two, complaining about what we dislike as well as what we like is a big part of fanning for a lot of us -- for me definitely; I enjoy a good hard critical analysis, and I'll be honest, sometimes I take guiltily gleeful pleasure in shredding something I didn't like. And sometimes, too, it feels great to talk about and find out I'm not alone in hating X thing. But I try -- have been trying harder -- to limit how I do it. When I criticize canon, I try to tag/mark it for negativity and squee-harshing, so people who don't want to see it can avoid it. When I criticize fanworks (either a specific fic I don't like, or a trope/ship/etc) I try to ensure it's not personal, and/or to keep it in more private locked channels that won't get back to the writer(s), because that's really all about me and what I like; it's not another fan's fault that I have my preferences, and the last thing I want to do is get in the way of the fun of someone else who is enjoying the fandom as much as I am, if in a different way.
I'm far from great at this -- I've hurt friends on more than one occasion without meaning to because I got too into a fannish debate and didn't realize the feelings I was provoking. I have no doubt that I've discouraged other fans from fanning on and writing things they enjoy, and I'm sorry for that. But I'm trying, and will keep trying -- I've been trying harder especially lately because my current fandom is quite small; just about all of us non-lurkers in it have interacted with each other to some extent, so it makes any interactions more personal than they would be in a larger fandom in which many people don't know each other. I'm not perfect but I'm doing my best. And hopefully my fandoms will be a more encouraging place for it.
tl;dr: make squee, not war?
ETA: this post's original subject was "not-so-vague vague-posting" because I was originally inspired to write it by a mess in my current fandom. My original intent morphed in the writing of it, though, to be more about my own changing feelings about how I interact with the fan communities I'm in, for better or for worse, so I've adjusted the subject to match.
no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 01:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 01:23 am (UTC)So I like the way you frame this not solely as "be kind" etc. etc. but "be careful about your negativity." That is a very simple thing but powerful too.
I'm trying to be aware of that one both sides of the coin. In NiF there is one character I truly dislike and cannot be convinced is likable or redeemable, but that character is beloved by many, and I've had to just step away and remind myself that justifying my feels is not worth harshing other people's squee. This isn't complicated math, it is easy to just not discuss that character. It's...pretty sad how long it has taken me to learn that lesson, aaaack.
I too have hurt friends and possibly made people shy of writing/drawing/discussing what they love and honestly that breaks my heart. I just hope I'm doing better at not doing that these days.
no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 01:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 01:35 am (UTC)Oh boy yes to this.
I get this a lot with MCU movie canon, especially in adjacent places where there's like this blanket permission to diss stuff with the assumption that everyone must feel the same way and it really screws me up for days. And the thing is it makes me have to put in extra effort to stay in fandom. I'm acutely conscious of this effort I'm having to make because it's atypical of me. It's not like I'm hovering on the edge of "in" or "out" decision, it's more like I have to take a deep breath and bring to mind all the things I love about canon to remember why I'm here. Because for me, once I don't like canon, I move fandoms. I don't stay where I don't like the source material, and so it's so important for me to feel good about it.
I mean, needless to say, chasing creators out of fandom with mean comments is beyond the pale. But I think that happens relatively rarely compared to how often I see people just dismiss certain things as bad because they feel that way, and not realize this isn't a commonly held viewpoint. IMHO anyway.
And also what you said about comradely is so true. The more connected I feel to the people in the fandom the more I creative I feel. The cycle of reader-writer-artist-beta giving each other things is perpetuated on good will after all.
no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 01:41 am (UTC)I'm trying to be aware of that one both sides of the coin.
This, oh yes, this -- positivity can be painful too; people joyfully shipping a NOTP of mine can make me go GRRRRRR but the harshing squee isn't worth it. Though sometimes it can feel pettily good in the short-term, in the long-term I end up feeling like a dick (because I maybe am) so...
(...ahahah now I'm so curious about your disliked NiF character. I love just about everyone in that show so probably don't share it but then the part of me that enjoys wank is all ooooh ^^;)
And yeah, I've hurt people -- I do love a good debate and my friends mostly do too, but sometimes it can get personal without either of us even realizing it until there's real hurt. And you apologize and work through it, but it takes effort and trust needs to be rebuilt.
The fans I don't know that I've discouraged, they're the ones I feel even guiltier about, and I just can hope I'm reducing the damage as much I can!
no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 01:58 am (UTC)Complaining about what we dislike as well as what we like is as big part of fanning for a lot of us -- for me definitely; I enjoy a good hard critical analysis, and I'll be honest, sometimes I take guiltily gleeful pleasure in shredding something I didn't like. And sometimes, too, it feels great to talk about and find out I'm not alone in hating X thing. But I try -- have been trying harder -- to limit how I do it.
I FEEL THIS SO HARD. It is something I've been trying to be much more mindful of lately, too, in particular noticing how affected I am by negativity in my fandoms, and how both of my past big Western-media fandoms (SGA and White Collar) are fandoms that I noped out on largely because of negativity - in WC's case it was also because of being severely burned by the ending, but I think the reason why I didn't stick around anyway and write oodles of fixits was largely because I'd been sidling out of the fandom for the past year or so anyway due to unrelenting negativity from the rest of the fandom on the parts of it that I was most invested in. I mean, in SGA's case, having brought it up above, it definitely wasn't you at all, but it was the whole entire ... just ... inability to even be in the fandom while avoiding wholesale hatred of the show that ended up making the fandom intolerable for me.
And yet it is also a case of being hoisted by my own petard, because I know that I've trash-talked things in the past! I was thinking a little while back about the Grant Ward mess in Agents of SHIELD fandom, and how strongly at the time I came down on the side of "this character is terrible! It is Teaching Bad Things!" but now, holy freck, after several years on Tumblr, seeing what the ad absurdum level of that argument is like, as well as various experiences with falling in love with the hated characters/ships in a canon, I am now very firmly settled on the "love what you love" end of the fandom spectrum. (I mean, I think I always kinda was anyway; it's just that it's become much more firmly entrenched due to seeing just how far it can go when you start judging other people's tastes as Bad and Wrong.)
But at the same time it's just so hard to accommodate the full range of what people want and need in a fandom. Another recent thing: a discussion with a fandom friend about one of her canons, which is a horror show that has been explicitly stated (by the creator) that they are not going to incorporate domestic violence into the various storylines. And we talked about how, on one hand, this is explicitly a selling point for some of the fandom! And that is entirely valid! (I mean, for the record, neither of us actually think this is a bad or wrong decision on the creator's part.) And yet it also shuts the show off from being able to deal with certain angles of horror, of emotional experience, and ... that's also valid, to want to explore those things?
This is the even farther end of Tumblr's ad-absurdum nature of arguing about things, where there are certain schools of thought out there that writing about things that are wrong IRL (from rape and underage, to racism and homophobia) means that you condone them, and even seeing those posts go by on my dash usually makes me hit the ceiling so hard despite the fact that I usually don't write about them anyway. XD But also, I personally know people in fandom who are legit triggered by the flip side of that: soft fluffy *ism-free worlds are what throws them into a negative headspace, and their experience is valid too!
... uh, okay, this has now wandered pretty far afield from your point, but I guess bringing it back around to the topic: I completely agree about keeping things positive as much as possible, and yet, fandom is wide and diverse, and some people need squeeful talk about the best parts of canon, and some people need to vent about the bad parts, and often those are the same people at different times, so ... how do we handle that?! I guess proper cut-tagging and clear labeling is really all you can do. (This isn't even negativity per se, but I try to consistently tag my Iron Fist posts and often cut-tag as much as I can, both here and on Tumblr, because I know there are people who follow me who really hate it on a borderline triggery level, and I want to make it easy for them to avoid it -- if they want to continue engaging with me; I also understand and am fine with people simply unfollowing/blocking me because of it, and that's valid too! But I'm not going to just not talk about it at all -- I kinda did do that for awhile and then I was like, self, this is ridiculous -- because it's my big fandom right now and if the mere existence of it in my space is an issue for people, they are going to have to leave/avoid me. Which I'm totally okay with; I understand that protecting yourself is the most important thing! So I try to walk the line between being super happy and delighted with my canon, which I am, and not really wanting to engage with the bad/problematic bits because that's just not how I do fandom, in general; but also recognizing that for other people, the bad bits are too overwhelming for them to want to be in the same room with the canon, and making sure they have the space to have that, too.)
Anyway ... I guess what it comes down to is that I think "Make squee not war" is a good life strategy and I am going to try to follow it more myself. :D
ETA: Bet you missed these comment-box-breaking comments of mine, huh. XDDD
no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 02:05 am (UTC)I try to remember also that even though I'm in a small fandom, I don't actually know everyone who's reading stuff. People might be poking around, trying to decide whether to join in and how (this was me, several months ago), and I want to either encourage more people to join the merriment or at least not discourage them. Don't really want to ruin the day of any committed lurkers, either, ideally.
no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 02:11 am (UTC)This part really resonated with me. I'm in Game of Thrones fandom and the final season was controversial to say the least. The final arc screwed over my favorite ship which has led to a lot of folks in my corner of fandom being super negative since the finale aired. I agree with a lot of the criticism, but sometimes I get overloaded by the negativity, especially when others start bashing everything that came before the ending...including the scenes that made so many of us shippers in the first place.
I don't know, there's a sense that because the ending sucked for us, everything that came before it is retroactively ruined and there's kind of this shaming thing going on, with BNFs (or today's equivalent of that term) constantly telling the rest of us we were all fools and should've known the showrunners didn't give a fuck about our pairing at such and such a point, blah blah blah.
There's also the fact that the book series isn't finished yet and seems to be pointing in a different (better) direction for our ship so there are lots of folks just trashing the show up one side and down the other and putting all their eggs in the book basket, as if that's the only valid version of the ship. Which again, I don't disagree with exactly. I, too, am hoping the final books will be published and give us a better ending, but at the same time I'm tired of feeling like the book shippers around me are beating up on show-only shippers and kind of making them feel shitty if they still liked stuff from the show. It's all a bummer.
ETA: And it's funny that I used to get upset about nasty ship-wars, but now it's like the call's coming from inside the house. No one can harsh my buzz faster than a shipper who ships the same goddamn ship as me who rants up a storm and does it in such a way that implies I'm stupid for still feeling fondly about the ship.
no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 02:15 am (UTC)That probably sounds like I'm preaching. I'm not. I can't. I've messed up way too often. I've ranted about NOTPs and characters and even fandoms I dislike without thought, and I've hurt friends, and I've assuredly hurt strangers. I used to say, a lot, "I'm just a schmuck with a keyboard, and I have as much power over you as you give me." But, you know, that attitude only goes so far. As does the idea that our journals are our own spaces. That may all be true, but we are still responsible for things we say in public, and unless we're talking behind lock, posting to DW—or AO3 or Tumblr or Twitter—is public. We are still responsible for effect, even if we didn't intend harm. That's something I have to remind myself of frequently. It's something I was very bad at in MCU. It's something I want to do better at in Guardian.
no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 02:31 am (UTC)Fandom is a really fucking emotional thing for most people. Our interests and obsessions are a pretty core part of our identities, and we wouldn't be devoting time and energy to them if we weren't mentally and emotionally engaged. Hearing that someone hates something you love can hurt, even when there is no hurt intended.
It's so fascinating to me how true this is! Criticism of shows and characters, especially the dismissive 'well this just SUCKS' kind, is really hard to handle - it's personal, in a weird sort of way, like someone talking about your family or your pet or your hometown. It feels like a slap in the face even though I understand that 99.9% of the time, it really isn't intended that way - it's just someone expressing their opinions! But it ends up feeling like criticism of you.
no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 02:32 am (UTC)But the kind of negative statements that try to make sweeping, insulting conclusions about the opposition will quickly turn a small fandom space into a place where people feel attacked for subjective preferences. You can't know how grateful I was when you posted your epic novel/drama Guardian fusion, because for the longest time, a really commonly held opinion was that people who fused novel/drama were too dumb to understand that the book and drama are different if they thought those two disparate worlds could be reconciled. And I think that was just the result of a bunch of people who disliked mixing the two canons whose voices drowned out a minority who would have wanted to explore those concepts - not absolute fact.
And I think that's what it comes down to in the end. There's a kind of toxic and public negativity that's almost aimed at driving away content someone doesn't like to see, by making people too self-conscious to respond and by making it seem like opinion A is the only correct opinion. And we should be mindful that we're not doing that, even during venting.
no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 04:10 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 04:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 05:10 am (UTC)Part of the difficulty is that we're talking about different types of commentary when we say "negative" and imo they are not all the same thing.
I don't mind critique when it is part of thoughtful meta, but I wonder if sometimes after a fandom has been having a convo for a while, some meta loses its nuance for shorthand purposes and can become a bit flippant, simplified, scornful, or monolithic, and that's when it can start to hurt feelings. Likewise, once fandom gets to a place where we have the same conversation about something over and over, and some people feel like x and others feel like y, it can start to seem like you're beating a dead horse.
It's also different when you criticize out of love vs. out of derision. If someone in Guardian gently pokes fun at production value, that doesn't really bother me and can usually make me laugh in affection. But if someone not in the fandom dismisses the show for having bad special effects, then I can get defensive.
As you noted above, critiques for misogyny, racism, etc. are important conversations to have even if they make us uncomfortable or unhappy.
I think the type of negativity that bothers me most is around individual fanworks, styles, tropes, etc. This is in a slightly different category to me because it pertains to something that fandom creates and because negativity around it is so often rooted in individual preferences that aren't always rational (and hence not conducive to debate). Again, with exceptions for convos about racism or meta conversations about things like how we can be a safer space for everyone, I really don't GAF about all the things you personally don't like in fanworks or the fics you personally thought weren't that great. All that does is make me feel like if I create or enjoy those things there must be something wrong with me or that if I create things other people won't like them. It leaves me self-conscious rather than energized. Especially where so much of fanfic is just hitting the id (whether people want to own that or not), sometimes it's hard to be more intellectual about it other than "that trope makes me squee" or "that trope makes me cringe."
One of the things I most treasure about fandom is its gift economy, where we are all building this thing together, and also that it's a space for amateurs. You don't have to be GOOD to create in fandom. You're not getting paid. Some people may be "practicing" for professional publication, but a lot of us have absolutely no aspirations for that. We are creating because we enjoy creation for its own sake and we love something about the verse or the characters. We're having fun. As a result, the expectations I have of both myself and others are much more relaxed. It's not about meeting some standard but about contributing. It honestly really bothers me when people approach fanworks from a "consumer" perspective and become evaluative. Read what you enjoy, and don't bother with what you don't enjoy. Before disparaging tropes, styles, genres in public (for example the number of times I have had to listen to people act like SFF is an intellectually or artistically superior genre to romance...), consider if you are enriching the world of what creators might play with or shutting people down.
no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 06:20 am (UTC)Let me just say how much I appreciate this? Because I have Many Strong Feelings about NiF (to the point where reading fic is difficult), and that means that while I love hearing about people's positive experiences with the show negative ones get to me equally hard. If it's something like "too bad they dubbed Jin Dong" that's pretty easy to agree with because it doesn't get to my heart in the same way "I think this character is a bad person" would. Even if maybe one could argue that they are - Fei Liu doesn't really work for a living, he keeps slacking off, what a freeloading brat! - that could probably ruin my day as I tried to think of good counter-examples for reasons of loving him. (*Not actually an opinion I hold or have ever heard!)
So yes, thank you so much, and may you one day find someone else you can dissect this character with so you can get some validation for your read on them in private!
no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 07:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 07:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 07:19 am (UTC)I'm having the opposite problem - I'm finding it challenging to get into a lot of pro fic these days, because great fanfic writers have set the bar of my expectations for how engaging it's going to be, in a place where pro-fic (sometimes self-published but other times not) is more and more often falling flat for me. I have a surprising number of books in my DNF pile whereas past me would have cringed in horror at the thought of not finishing a book, even if I didn't really like it.
Anyway this has nothing to do with the original post but it's 2 am and I'm awake and this is what happens.
no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 08:58 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-11-18 09:30 am (UTC)My default mode and preference is squee, however. I just don't have the energy after RL stuff to engage in too many thinky thoughts. (Even this is a lot!)
This! I know I talk a lot, and do a lot of words sometimes, but gah. Going into the nitty-gritty of thinky thoughts on stuff is hard. I prefer meta that's more generally speculative (what did Zhao Yunlan do before the SID?) rather than trying to settle on One True Interpretation of canon, which...is never going to happen because we all have different nuances of understanding, from language comprehension to cultural background to what we read into character motivations.
I like collecting bits and pieces of headcanon, having them sitting around like bits of shiny in my magpie's nest of a brain, and then sometimes I will arrange one of them into a pleasing part of a fic.
But there's other pieces of headcanon that I feel so strongly about that I will be confused and distressed by seeing disparaged or denied! And even I don't know which of my takes on the show are fluid and which are dealbreakers (for engaging in a fanwork) until they hit me. This makes me rubbish at talking about them, because I hate feeling defensive and overly emotional, and so: avoidance.
I come to fandom to unwind and look at the pretty and roll around in feels, so that's my happy place and what I'm looking for here.
This is where I go fluff up the fluff and sharpen the knives and get ready to roll around with you! Because: yes. This is where I'm happiest.
I don't mind critique when it is part of thoughtful meta, but I wonder if sometimes after a fandom has been having a convo for a while, some meta loses its nuance for shorthand purposes and can become a bit flippant, simplified, scornful, or monolithic, and that's when it can start to hurt feelings.
This is absolutely true, and I think very easy to slip into without realizing? Because it's also a bonding experience - yes, we agree with each other, yes, we're on the same page...but for those who aren't, it's absolutely alienating.
I think the type of negativity that bothers me most is around individual fanworks, styles, tropes, etc.
THIS. This is the key for me, and I think I'd even back a "maybe don't throw these around" even if you want to, even if you think your point is very fair and rational or you feel put-upon by a sudden influx of Thing You Dislike and know that likeminded people can support you through this difficult time.
This, I feel, is why we have DMs and private chats and email.
Look, I have squicks. I have types of stories that do nothing for me that are popular and show up a lot.
In the long run I lose absolutely nothing by keeping my frustration with Fast and Furious fusions to myself and those friends I know won't be hurt by the fact that I want to vent about how many racing scenes I am having to skip because they bore me. (Very important: you do not need to like everything! Nobody is saying having human feelings is banned. But my need to express human feelings does not trump others' right to post what they like without feeling attacked.)
So it goes beyond not making posts complaining about The Thing Fandom Is Doing I Don't Like (standard disclaimer: this is different than dealing with racism, homophobia etc.). It includes being mindful in conversations with people, and in comments on fic.
"Don't like don't read" should be applied alongside the golden rule. NOBODY is going to be happy if I read a fic tagged "racing" and then leave a comment on "I liked the rest of the fic but I'm not into racing. Here are my reasons for disliking racing in fic." THIS IS NOT OKAY. This is when you leave the "I liked" part of the comment and turn to your closest friend to get sympathy that you had to skip through yet another bloody racing scene.
This ALSO applies to "I don't usually read Fast and Furious fusions, but yours was pretty good" type of comments. This is tricky, because I feel it might be okay to let an author know you think they handled a subject you find difficult in a good way. I found it hugely flattering that someone read one of my stories despite one of the tags being a squick of theirs.
But if it's a general slag on the trope - this will make every other writer who is into the trope feel that the comment means that their writing isn't good enough to engage in. It might also make the writer who wrote the trope out of love feel hurt, because a lot of people do only write what they love and being told "I'm not into your ship/trope/interpretation of this character in general" is the same as "I dislike what you love" and. Again. Not cool.
If you're in someone's space and it's full of pictures of Vin Diesel and muscle cars, maybe don't start a monologue on how awful you find The Fast and Furious franchise in general, even if you round off with a "but I like this piece of fanart that you drew of a car driven by Michelle Rodriguez". (Wait no I don't mean maybe don't I mean do not).
Okay this is as much rambling as I'm capable of and in summary I support squee and I love fanning with you Asya and I'm sorry if none of this makes any sense. ^^;
*This example is entirely fictional and more people should write Fast and Furious fusions for the rapt audience that is my wife.
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Date: 2019-11-18 10:53 am (UTC)I've been on both sides of this -- there are some shows (e.g. Smallville) that I came to hate the canon, but I still loved the fandom and the characters and the fic, and basically treating the canon as an OOC AU was the only way I kept loving them. But then there are other shows that I love the canon, and even if it's flawed I don't want to dwell on that; it will make me like it less.
And then there are mixed cases like Guardian that I absolutely love parts of the canon and hate other parts, and I can simultaneously be upset with people who dismiss the show as not worth watching, but at the same time when I call it a trash show it's not just to dismiss it, but a defense mechanism, because the only way I can really enjoy it is to remind myself not to take it too seriously, or it will break my heart. But increasingly I'm trying to keep those thoughts more to myself/to people who agree with me, and not interfere with others' enjoyment.
And yes, fandom is a community thing, very much so. We play off each other so much that it's easy for us to encourage or discourage our fellow fans, whether or not we mean to...
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Date: 2019-11-18 11:08 am (UTC)And also, yeah...SGA and the Keller situation was definitely one of the main things I was thinking about, because that got...tense. And some of it was satisfying but a lot wasn't, and if I could do it again...I don't think my opinion of the canon itself would change much, tbh; but hopefully the way I handled myself in the fandom would. It wasn't just me that soured that fandom, but I definitely didn't help, so.
Really I think cases of dealing with canon get difficult because for a lot of us, being critical of canon, or parts of canon, is crucial to how we fan -- I mentioned it in comment to Sheron above, but I've had fandoms that I hated the canon, and in fact the only reason I could stay in the fandom was by rejecting the canon, by viewing it as basically OOC nonsense.
Also with some canons, yeah, there is a level of bitterness that happens, when you get disillusioned with a show, that there is this impulse to drag others down too. It's weirdly painful to see people enjoying something you used to enjoy too but don't anymore?
Not to mention, as I've talked about before, I actually can really enjoy critical and negative takes on shows, especially the trainwreck pleasure of a show I'm not actually into (I enjoyed the downfall of GoT, I won't lie!) And you were reading my SPN rants. And that's a form of fanning too, and not one I want to give up!
But such negativity can at the same time ruin a fandom for some fans. And so I think it is important to keep it limited such that people who don't want to see it don't have to. Basically, to treat it like we treat other "problematic" content -- put it behind cuts, warn for it. Acknowledge that it can have a negative impact on other fans, and take care with it.
Though there are some platforms that make it easier than others, and Discord especially sounds like it's a nightmare as far as this goes, because there is no way to control the experience...and I don't know what to do about that, because yeah, there isn't one way to fan. But staying aware that what you say can spoil another fan's experience, even if you aren't intending that at all, I think that's important to remember. It shouldn't paralyze you or stop you from talking or expressing yourself, but it's something to keep in mind, too.
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Date: 2019-11-18 11:15 am (UTC)(This isn't to say that some people don't genuinely like or hate things in fandom for those reasons; but I think the reasons are more commonly just good old-fashioned Fanning...)
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Date: 2019-11-18 11:19 am (UTC)Oh, yes, this is really important, there has to be a balance, because if you worry too much about how other people might take what you say, you can end up not daring to speak at all. And honestly, it's so easy to say things that hurt or just annoy people without meaning to.
My original post was more on that side of it, and I think that's important too, to acknowledge that one side of fandom -- especially small fandoms like this -- is that it's really easy to step on toes and ruffle feathers and discourage people without meaning to, and there needs to be both a willingness to apologize and a willingness to forgive if we're all going to get along. But yeah, just sparing some thought to who might read our posts and what might encourage or discourage them, that's a good place to start.
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Date: 2019-11-18 11:27 am (UTC)Oh man, this is so true -- negativity is so much worse when it's coming from fans/a community you know. When it's random strangers it can be easier to dismiss, to ignore, to just say they're wrong; but when it's the people who you used to get along with and now you're out of step and at odds -- it's so jarring, and a lot harder to ignore. Especially when it means there's a lot less squee and a lot more buzz-killing.
I'm sorry the fandom got like that -- I've been around for the ends of shows that didn't go well (and sometimes I was on the more negative side, I admit...) and there is often so much hurt from fans feeling betrayed by canon, that people still enjoying the canon can feel like a betrayal in itself, and that can cause people to get even more negative, trying to convince others to see the show in the same harsh light they do. Which then completely sucks for those who are still enjoying what they can. And having to preface everything positive you say with, "okay, I know a lot sucked, but still..." gets exhausting.
I hope you've found at least a few fans who still ship like you do, and hopefully with time things may pick up again...the worst bitterness tends to fade, older fandoms tend to run on happier nostalgia, in my experience...