the land of S

[xparrot]

Firstly, there was Supernatural 2x20 breaking our hearts. Oh, Dean. You're a pathetic alcoholic prom-date-stealing asshole in your dream world, but that's okay, because your mom is alive and your brother is happy. Also, it's saying something for this show that though Dean has been my favorite from the beginning, I was twitching from the lack of Sammy. It's both or nothing, with these boys...

And when everyone is advancing on Dean at the end, Jessica stands alone, while Dean's random girlfriend is just behind Sammy - Dean met Jessica only once but she's still that important to him, because she's that important to Sam. ...Even if that meant, darn it, he was hugging her instead of Sam. You are playing with us, show. This hug we're all on tenterhooks for better be worth it.



Then, Smallville 6x20, which should have come with a surgeon general's warning, because everyone was smokin'. Literally, in some cases. Lex in particular. Wowza. (I cannot stand the smell of cigarettes. Fortunately, on TV, I don't have to smell them. And anything that gets MR's hands near MR's mouth is a force of good in the name of the sexy.) And Clark in glasses is fantastic and gorgeous. And Lana is evil! And Lex is wearing a hat! And is with Lois! (yays for Lexis, and for Lois period! Have missed her!) (And then Lex is...dead. Oh, Lex. Even in random dream sequences you're still a pathetic loser who gets out-eviled by everyone around you. Sigh. In my mind, naturally, noir!Lex&Clark are running a sting operation together and Lex's death was faked...)

The non-noir portions weren't nearly as fun, mainly because Lana didn't actually get shot by Clark and die. Pity, that. gnine is also frothing at the about-face of Chloe saying that Lex couldn't have hurt Lana because he luuuurves her, when in "Progeny" two episodes before she was agreeing when Clark said Lex would throw Lana to the wolves. Not to mention the discrepancy about Lana's terrible "loveless marriage" in which apparently even Chloe believes that Lex does love her, so the love is only lacking on Lana's part. Dear Show, I am so baffled. I thought we're supposed to hate Lex for playing evil baby-faking mindgames. So why are you making us feel sorry for him for being in love with a woman who is plotting against him, for the love of another man? Whose side are we supposed to be on? Throw us a bone, please! --Konfused in Kansas

Has anyone noticed that Lionel's evilosity is inversely proportional to the length of his hair? His mane was remarkably tame here, when he's supposedly going good (I am confused as to how Lionel could possibly be seen as 'good' by any definition, but that's a matter to be taken up with the spoilers). In 4th season, he gets his head shaved and goes totally good for a time, then as it grows back, so does the darkness in his heart. So what does this say about Lex, hmm?

Comments

[naye]

'Evilocity', hee! I love it. XD

And SPN! With the brother-love! Or actually - the LACK of love from his little brother tearing Dean apart, because it's what he LIVES for, and then he still had it, and everything was good, but even before he figured out what was going on he was still going to sacrifice it all for the greater good, because Dean is our Big Damn Hero.

OMG SHOW! <33333333 SO much with the love. So much.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I love how willing Dean is to plunge a knife into his own chest! Boy is quite, quite mad. I mean, yeah, it was necessary, but still (I thought for a moment that the djinn might've taken Sam's form in the vision, necessitating Dean stabbitying Sammy. In retrospect it's good it didn't, because while Dean can stab himself, no sweat, I don't know if he could've stuck Sammy...)

And yes, Dean being all heroic! Choosing the good of the world over his own good...and then at the end Sam says it's worth it and Dean doesn't answer and oh ooh oooooh! This show! the angst! the we-need-each-other-just-to-keep-it-together brother-love! eeee! <3333

Just hope the finale doesn't truck us as bad as the last one...

I haven't seen SV ep 20 yet...

[(Anonymous)]

... because I work the evening shift, so I'll probably catch it on Space, Saturday. A Film Noir episode sounds good.

But on the matter of who is truly Evil. I've ranted about this before on your LJ. (Glad you don't mind.) Is there anything, anything at all Evil that Lex has done, that the other characters on SV haven't done? The Good Characters, I mean? The ones who don't get called Evil for what they do?

I don't know if the SV writers want us to be confused, or if they want us to connect the dots and realize that no one on the show is truly Evil (excepting Lionel, of course), or if they really don't care one way or the other, and just push the reset button every other episode for fun.

BTW, in Nemesis, when Chloe said Lex should die for what he did to Chloe's mom, what did she mean? Anyone know? Was she blaming Lex for her mom's illness? For her mom trying to make her murder Lex? For the fact that the experimental drug didn't work permanently? What????

Re: I haven't seen SV ep 20 yet...

[jakrar.livejournal.com]

Is there anything, anything at all Evil that Lex has done, that the other characters on SV haven't done? The Good Characters, I mean? The ones who don't get called Evil for what they do?

Offhand, I can't think of anything. Lex has killed -- both deliberately in order to save lives (Nixon), and unintentionally in the midst of what I see as temporary psychotic breakdowns (Duncan, certainly, and possibly Lana's crooked doctor, as well) -- but Clark has also killed, both intentionally and unintentionally, as have other SV 'good guys.'

And Lex has captured and studied mutants, but Oliver Queen had Lex kidnapped and actually got him tortured and nearly burned alive (and Lana with him), which is far worse than anything we've seen Lex and his people do to anyone, and clearly Queen felt no guilt about it at all. Actually, I have a theory that Queen had earlier set up cameras in the building where Lex was to be held, and taped/watched Lex being tortured and never bothered to intervene, though -- for form's sake -- he later mildly rebuked the surviving minion for ignoring his official orders. (Plausible deniability, as Lionel would say.) In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Queen plays those tapes when he wants to get himself off.... (Could be interesting if Clark someday caught him at that.)

Re: I haven't seen SV ep 20 yet...

[(Anonymous)]

God! What troubles me about this -- and I do feel obliged to explain why it troubles me, because SV is 'just a TV show' -- is that SV seems to be saying that it's okay to do 'bad things' if you're one of the Good Guys.

Woops!

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

'Anonymous' was Me, not signed in. Sorry!

Re: Woops!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

The film noir was fun.

Actually, spoilers indicate that the writers might now want us to think Lionel has gone good! Will have to see how that turns out because, um, yeah. No. Flippin'. Way. No good man turns so completely on his own son...

BTW, in Nemesis, when Chloe said Lex should die for what he did to Chloe's mom, what did she mean? Anyone know? Was she blaming Lex for her mom's illness? For her mom trying to make her murder Lex? For the fact that the experimental drug didn't work permanently?

This is an excellent question, I've been trying to figure it out myself! Moira was the greater evil in "Progeny"...Lex might've done a few not-so-nice things, but he was quite the lesser. Of course Moira is insane...(I have this mental image that Moira comes out of the coma years from now, sanity restores, and goes and thanks Lex for not letting her wreak havok before...)

[bagheera-san.livejournal.com]

Oh, Lex. Even in random dream sequences you're still a pathetic loser who gets out-eviled by everyone around you.

:D The show is just incapable of making Lex anything other than fate's punching bag. Even random people like Jimmy see him as the poor victim.

Konfused in Kansas

I'm joining that club. Lex-Lana-Lionel plot has me going 'bzuh?!'

Lionel is like one of those wizards who store their magical energy in their hair.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I'm joining that club. Lex-Lana-Lionel plot has me going 'bzuh?!'

Oh good, glad it's just me so totally baffled. The Lexana in general is confusing but this...suuuuure. Whatever, show.

Lionel is like one of those wizards who store their magical energy in their hair.

Lionel is Samson! Lana will prove her evilness by sneaking into his bedroom and shaving him as bald as his son!

And this explains Lex's loserhood. Poor powerless Lex. No wonder Lionel was so upset with him after the meteor shower...

[romanyg.livejournal.com]

Yes, there were a lot of cigarettes, but only MR, JG and AA inhaled. It's not smoking if you don't inhale. Or something. *g*

I don't know if this was another case of Lex getting out-eviled or foreshadowing for Lionel and Lana's collaboration. And the Luthor that Clark has the final showdown with might be Lana. I'm probably overthinking it.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

The problem I have with cigarettes is that however much I dislike them in real life, after a steady diet of Japanese drama and such, when on my TV screen they shortcircuit my brain, right past reason and go directly to "HOT"...! (I just hope none of them smoke regularly, that would make me sad.)

I wish I trusted SV enough to accept any possible foreshadowing. The show can deliver (especially visual resonance) but it's so very hit-or-miss. Clark having a showdown with Lana would be pretty nifty, though...shame they didn't take the short route there from the beginning of the season, rather than this circuitous Lana-as-martyr - no, she's evil, too! - no, she's a tragic victim - route.

[jakrar.livejournal.com]

my mind, naturally, noir!Lex&Clark are running a sting operation together and Lex's death was faked...

You should definitely write this! *looks hopeful and gives you puppy eyes*

Also, did you notice that, even though Clark ostensibly went down into the tunnels in "Nemesis" to save Lex's life, and even though Lex absolutely saved Clark's life down there, Clark has clearly never bothered to warn Lex that Lana was willing to let her 'beloved' husband die down there rather than give the police the tunnel schematics? I have no doubt at all that if it had been Lex who was demonstrably willing to let someone die like that, both Clark and Chloe would have warned the intended victim and maybe even alerted the police...but since Lana was the one committing passive attempted murder, and since Lex was the intended victim, apparently that's perfectly fine with our intrepid heroes.... *snarls at supposed 'good guys'*

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Admittedly, Clark didn't know that Lana was out to see Lex die until after it was all over, and then...he would have to call Lex up, tell him about Lana, and after their dramatic clasp after the caves...awk-ward!

I have no idea if our heroes would've given anyone warning! They suck at taking pre-emptive action, or else they would have bothered to make it clear to Lana that she was 'marrying a monster' rather than just an asshole they didn't personally like anymore. If they really thought Lex was as dangerous as they talk like he is, they should've just kidnapped Lana before the wedding, gotten her away from him, with the assumption that he either had something over her or was brainwashing her into marriage.

And tell the police? Really now! When has that ever been an option in this show? What a silly idea, getting the actual, legal authorities onto the problem! (Have I mentioned our latest theory, that Lex actually has government support? There was that random observer in "Progeny".. Heck, if I want to go total apologist I could argue that 33.1 is him trying to keep a lid on the government's demands as best he can - "No, we don't need to capture all the mutants, I can tag them - yes, it's under control, I swear, you don't need to take more drastic action...")

[jakrar.livejournal.com]

Admittedly, Clark didn't know that Lana was out to see Lex die until after it was all over

Yes, Clark would have had to contact Lex after Chloe laid it all out for him, but I have no doubt he would have done so if Lana had been the one in danger from Lex, even if he and Lana weren't supposed to be on speaking terms at the time. Interesting, what double standards the 'heroes' on this show seem to have.

What a silly idea, getting the actual, legal authorities onto the problem!

Ah, yes -- I must have lost my head for a moment. Calling the police when suspecting someone of a crime is hardly a Smallville-type thing to do.

Have I mentioned our latest theory, that Lex actually has government support?

Well, Lex is dealing with that senator on the tape, and it does seem very likely, given past events, that the government would be interested in creating super-soldiers. Also, it sounded to me like the soldier we saw them working on at the end of "Nemesis" had been officially assigned to work with Luthorcorp (and may even have volunteered for that assignment, regardless of all Chloe and Clark's yammering about Lex experimenting on 'unwilling victims').

Heck, if I want to go total apologist I could argue that 33.1 is him trying to keep a lid on the government's demands as best he can - "No, we don't need to capture all the mutants, I can tag them - yes, it's under control, I swear, you don't need to take more drastic action..."

Ooooh -- this would make for a great story! Suppose Clark uses his supersenses to eavesdrop on just such a conversation.... *nudges you*

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

it sounded to me like the soldier we saw them working on at the end of "Nemesis" had been officially assigned to work with Luthorcorp

Yeah, considering Lex apparently plucked him from the battlefield, one figures he had to have had some military approval...

this would make for a great story! Suppose Clark uses his supersenses to eavesdrop on just such a conversation....

So many fic ideas, so little time!! eep! Though I've got something in mind for this, depending on how the finale works out (you'll enjoy it, it'll have Green Arrow - no, trust me, you'll enjoy it! ^_^)

[jakrar.livejournal.com]

So many fic ideas, so little time!! eep! Though I've got something in mind for this, depending on how the finale works out (you'll enjoy it, it'll have Green Arrow - no, trust me, you'll enjoy it! ^_^)

Green Arrow, huh? *eyes you narrowly* We'll see....

Green Arrow?

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

"I've got something in mind for this...it'll have Green Arrow - no, trust me, you'll enjoy it!"

Hmmm. Maybe if Lex breaks Green Arrow into many tiny little Green Tacks and dumps them in the middle of Smallville's main street to puncture everyone's tires.

[tasabian.livejournal.com]

I am completely confused by the Lexana about-face as well. Perhaps this came about because the writers of this ep. (Souders/Peterson) are notorious Lana-pimps? She can do NO wrong in their episodes; everyone must love her and state it repeatedly. Whereas, "Progeny" was written by Genevieve Sparling, who in addition to the "thrown to the lions" line, also allowed the emergency room doctor to imply that Lana was a gold-digger.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Ahhh I really need to track the writers of this show! I wasn't paying as close attention as I usually do, and I have this feeling that a lot of the show would make more sense if I followed what faction the various writers are in (I have this vague grand unifying theory of SV's writing, that the staff is divided among itself and that ongoing war between various character supporters explains the intensely erratic nature of the show...!)

[lukita.livejournal.com]

Lana has been nailing herself to that cross forever. First it's her smushed parents, then it's her dead boyfriend, her aunt 'abandoned' her in Smallville, Clark won't tell her the truth or something and now she's doing all these evil things for lurve? Lana is such a professional bitch.

MR is hot, so is TW but well... LEX. I think I can stare at screen captures of him all day.

Maybe SV is trying for something edgy with the whole, Lex is not really a villain thing since the good guys are doing the exact same thing anyway. Poor loser Lex, just when he thinks marrying a younger, more innocent woman wouldn't be dangerous, Lana wants him dead as well.

Dood, with the whole Clark shooting Lana (in the back no less =D) does that mean Clark would break out from her mutant powers? Poor Lex seems to be deep in her gripe if the hospital scene is anything to go by.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Lana is such a professional bitch.

See, if the show would just acknowledge this, and let her live up to her bitchiness potential, I might actually enjoy the char...

Maybe SV is trying for something edgy with the whole, Lex is not really a villain thing since the good guys are doing the exact same thing anyway.

Heh! I think half of us are wondering if this is what's going on, at by this point. It isn't really making sense otherwise. Though I'm chary to give TPTB that much credit...

And I was so hoping Clark's shooting of Lana was symbolic of him breaking free. Or at least symbolic that Jimmy wants him to break free (since Jimmy Olsen is about Superman's biggest supporter, one could take that as acknowledgment that Clark needs to relinquish Lana to become the hero. ...Or one could take it as such, if one had any faith in TPTB, which one does not, as stated above. Siiigh...)

Let's see if I'm logged in this time...

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

... Oh, yeah. There we go. :-)))

"Though I'm chary to give TPTB that much credit..."

Me, too. Because the show isn't otherwise so complex.

TV shows, movies, books and so forth, usually state their ethical allegiances via their lead characters. Lex is a major character, but SV isn't The Lex Luthor Show, alas, the Good Guys (Irony. Sarcasm.) have him vastly outnumbered, and as I've noted before, no one ever questions their assumptions about him. All this leads me to believe that most, if not all, of the SV writers share these characters' assumptions.

[sholio]

Heh. I've gotten so used to the 20-episode seasons on most of the other shows I've been watching lately that I thought SPN 2x20 WAS the season finale. And I was all freaked out that it didn't end on a cliffhanger and that meant the show wasn't coming back for another season .... for about five minutes, until the Internet saved me from my angst. ;)

Oh, Dean.

... says it all, really. Ouchity. Poor Dean, choosing the world over his own happiness even before he knows it's a dream. Although, you know, once he did figure it out, it didn't seem like THAT difficult a choice ... because fake happiness is still fake, and I can't see Dean being able to accept that, especially knowing that Real!Sam is going to still be out there in the real world, facing demons by himself. But still, ouch.

... you know, I've actually died in dreams before. It wasn't the most pleasant experience, but it didn't wake me up. Good thing I'm not Dean...

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Eeep! No, the finale is to come (and I am scared...) and as far as I know the show is looking good for renewal, unless CW scraps its whole lineup. I'm crossing all my fingers and toes, SPN is one of those shows that the 3rd season might be its best!

"Oh, Dean!" is the capsule description of the entire show, really! And yeah, I sort of wish the alternate reality had been real, to make his choice more profound, but still. There's something to the fact that he actually considered it, that it was a difficult choice, that, well, his real life does suck that badly...even if he does have Sammy, and would never abandon him, no matter how difficult it is. Oh, poor put-upon heroes...

[sholio]

unless CW scraps its whole lineup. I'm crossing all my fingers and toes

ACK! Don't even suggest it! *whines*

I know absolutely nothing about the finale -- spoiler-free is my middle name, at least for this show -- but I'm expecting a doozie.

In other news, naye says that you all are finally going to watch SGA this summer ... *hopeful puppy eyes*

[utopiantrunks.livejournal.com]

Gah... I know. The ending left me unsatisfied. I *wanted* Dean to say something to the effect of "I knew the real you was still out here and needed me," but he didn't give me anything like it. "I wanted to stay"... and leave Sam all alone?! What!? *sulk* And there really needed to be a hug outside of the dream, goddamnit, after Dean had to go through the sheer lousiness of seeing a Sam who didn't want anything to do with him, and was happy without him... MU!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Inside the dream, outside the dream - there needs to be a hug SOMEWHERE! They are totally playing with us. Both of them need a hug so badly...all this verbal profession of love and loyalty is all very well but the physical expression has to happen sometime! come on, now! geeze!

[fiercynn.livejournal.com]

On Lionel's hair: I remember listening to some cast commentary or interview where someone asked MR if they thought Lionel used the length of his hair to show his power over Lex. I don't quite remember what MR said, though, but it could make sense! I did always feel that Lionel's shaved head in S4 was supposed to indicate a loss of power and a similarity to Lex's situation, though he wasn't actually that similar to Lex.

God, how I love the shows! I was just feeling last week that SPN hadn't had enough personal angst for the boys in recent time - and then there was this week. I adored the Dean and Jessica moment, even though I was a bit disgruntled that even in the fantasy world, Jessica wasn't allowed to know how cool Dean is, and thought he was just as much a jerk as real!Jessica probably did.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I do think Lionel's hair is sort of flaunting over Lex. Or overcompensating. Or something. (interesting that while Lionel's declawed when his head is shaved, being in jail - the shaving itself is a moment of power for him, what with everything going to hell just as he orchestrates it. That's a great scene, at any rate...)

SPN has a good balance of angst and not-angst - just when you're feeling its lack, the boys are put through pain again. Again. Heh. The show is so very, very fanfic...

[littlehollyleaf.livejournal.com]

In my mind, naturally, noir!Lex&Clark are running a sting operation together and Lex's death was faked...

OMG, there needs to be fanfic about this! Lois should also be involved somehow, because such a better triangle than Lexana. God. Feel like ditching the rest of your life and devoting yourself to fulfilling this fantasy in writing for me? *puppy dog eyes (as learnt from Clark)*

And the show really does seem all about playing with your perceptions of characters until you don't know which way is up doesn't it? Characterisation be dammed! It's all a ploy to crush my heart slowly. I mean, I was lost in the Luthor politics way back when the most complex issue was Lucas... things just haven't got any easier for me... is Lex evil? is he misguided? never will we get a straight answer. Which is why I quite liked that Lex was, surprisingly, a complete innocent in Jimmy's imaginings. Easier to grasp.

I'd noticed the hair style to evil ratio with Lionel too, didn't think to make a connection to Lex's baldness though. Fun :)

[littlehollyleaf.livejournal.com]

ah, reading previous comments I see someone else has already bugged you for fanfic. Also with puppy dog eyes no less. I wasn't trying to be a copy cat I swear! I guess I'm just unoriginal :p

Just shows how much faith we all have in your writing abilities though right? :)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

*laughs* I think I could be locked in an empty room for a month and still wouldn't have time to write all the SV fic ideas I've got! This show is too dang inspiring! (at any rate I need to write more SV Lois, in a triangle or whatever, I'm very fond of her...)

It's all a ploy to crush my heart slowly. I mean, I was lost in the Luthor politics way back when the most complex issue was Lucas

(What the heck happened to Lucas, anyway? He'd be a great minion for Lex, they should totally bring him back.) But, yeah, SV baffles me. I've never seen a show that is so, well, unclear about what it really wants you to think. Does it honestly expect us to blindly believe the heroes are good, even when they're doing things for the wrong reasons and the villain's doing them for the right ones? Very odd! Lex as hapless patsy in Jimmy's vision does fit his general position in the show, though...as wrong as that is for Lex Luthor.

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

"*laughs* I think I could be locked in an empty room for a month and still wouldn't have time to write all the SV fic ideas I've got! This show is too dang inspiring!"

And I think maybe this has something to do with that very baffling lack of clarity in the writing. You can come up with so many scenarios, so many explanations for why the characters do the things they do. In one way it's infuriating. In another its inspiring. And maybe also, it's very close to Real Life, because we usually don't know what's going on in other people's heads, or if they are good or bad inside.

It's just frustrating to watch all this on TV. And why doesn't at least one character in Clark's circle ever ask what right they have to judge Lex? And I've been reading message boards about the show, and so on, and we seem to be about the only viewers who notice all this. Are we the ones who didn't get the memo explaining it all, or what?

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I think in a way we are the only ones to not get the memo. At least on other posts I've seen about the show, a lot of people come at it from a "regular TV viewer's" perspective. That is, the stars are pretty, the action is cool, and they don't really care about in-depth analysis. They're content to have Lex cast as bad guy by music/lighting/etc and the good guys conversely cast as good and they don't consider the moral dilemmas, because the show never raises them openly and thus gives no impetus to think about them. Unless you're obsessed like us, seeking order where there's none!

The exception to this are the Lex anti-apologists, who do intense and in-depth readings of the show, but still come out with Lex as the villain. They're working with an expanded set of rules - many of them are comic book fans, so they got the same memo that every char in the show apparently has: they know Lex Luthor is a villain, and understand how his manipulative villainy works. So from the very beginning, they've been watching the show focused on every possibly evil thing Lex does, and have put together a different but still valid intepretation...

A good show wouldn't be giving so much disparate data that either intepretation (Lex as victim or Lex as villain) is viable - or if it did, it would do it deliberately, raising the question with the audience through the mouthpiece of one of the chars, in effect asking the audience to choose sides. (The new Battlestar Galactica is all about shades of gray, constantly making you reconsider who is the hero.) SV is just...I dunno. I think they tell whatever story they feel like telling at the time, dropping chars into slots without any thought to whether they're suited for those slots from past development...

But I totally agree, that murky uncaring attitude of the writers is what makes SV so frustrating and yet so inspiring. I've always thought that the best series for fanning aren't the best shows, but the shows with the most potential that is going unrealized...

You've just described me to a T...

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

"Unless you're obsessed like us, seeking order where there's none!" :-)))

I tend to analyze the sociological and psychological implications of the commercials I watch.

"...the Lex anti-apologists...still come out with Lex as the villain...focused on every possibly evil thing Lex does...."

Based on the comic book canon, this interpretation is correct. But SV has mangled comic book canon at every turn. And what the anti-Lex crowd also fails to notice, is what we've been ranting about -- the things the Good Guys have been doing. They keep missing that, or making excuses for it.

"A good show wouldn't be giving so much disparate data (Re:Lex)...or if it did, it would do it deliberately...in effect asking the audience to choose sides."

Exactly, exactly. Take 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer'. It had its comic book aspects, but was much more intelligent than SV. It raised so many issues about good and evil, and shades of gray. They have college level courses in the show already, and a whole library of books is available. I somehow doubt they'll be doing that over SV. And if SV were just a comic book sort of show, I wouldn't care. But it has aspirations to be more, that's the thing. It pretends to be more, but isn't. Wasted potential, yes.

Re: You've just described me to a T...

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I tend to analyze the sociological and psychological implications of the commercials I watch.

Hee! I entirely understand the impulse - I will psychoanalyze comic cartoon chars, given half a chance.

Actually many of the anti-apologists are very pro-Lex - they just like to see him as the villain. And I very much enjoy villains myself, but as you said, SV has messed with comic canon so much that I can't quite enjoy SV's Lex as the bad guy. Not when he's so personally miserable being evil!

Yeah, if SV was just trying to be a comic book (or a soap opera), that would be fine. But sometimes it seems like it's trying to go beyond that - like going to such lengths to establish Lex as a human being, only to forget that now that they're actually making him the villain. (I find it terribly ironic that the cartoon Justice League is more mature and consistent in its themes and storytelling than SV...!)

Re: You've just described me to a T...

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

Lex is miserable being evil. Which is interesting, because most evil people wouldn't characterize themselves as evil. They see themselves as being in the right. So, if Lex is miserable, it seems to me he sees what he's doing as wrong. So, why is he doing these things? Because he feels he must? And that brings us back to the possible interpretation that he thinks he's saving the world against an Evil Alien Invasion.:-)))

In which case he isn't truly evil. So, we win! :-)))

[lukita.livejournal.com]

the Lex anti-apologists, who do intense and in-depth readings of the show, but still come out with Lex as the villain [...] many of them are comic book fans, so they got the same memo that every char in the show apparently has

*Laughs* I think those guys are going "Doesn't these Lex-apologists chicks get the memo that Lex Luthor is a villain?"

Yes, yes we got the memo, it was one of the things that got me to watch Smallville in the first place. The biggest problem I have with this memo is that SV seems to be using it as a crutch for bad writing. They indulge in their Lana fanscination while the plot suffers from shakey characterizations and dropped storylines. The Spiderman movies doesn't have this problem and they have to get the story across in two hours, so why should SV?

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

"...I think those guys are going "Doesn't these Lex-apologists chicks get the memo that Lex Luthor is a villain?"

Hee. Yeah, I got that memo. In fact, I probably got it long before most of the current anti-Lex crowd were born. I read comic books when I was a little girl, and Superman was my favourite character, and I knew all about Lex Luthor being his Nemesis.

Then SV came along, and Lex Luthor isn't supposed to be a villain at the beginning. Okay. So, I watch the pilot, and I see a young guy, early 20s, not doing anything evil, struggling against his abusive father, trying to get by with lots of money and no love. And Clark Kent befriends him. Lex sees the possibility of a better life for himself, with a good friend at his side (leaving aside all Slashy aspects here, difficult as this may be).

But at the same time, I saw characters like Jonathan Kent, who are supposed to be good, acting like bigots, trying to get Clark to drop his friendship with Lex. Pete Ross hates him because Lionel bought the creamed corn factory from his family -- when Lex was a little kid. Lex Luthor hadn't done anything to hurt Pete, but Pete hates him.

And yes, their bigotry doesn't justify Lex's future 'evil'. But even less does Lex's future evil justify their bigotry. But I can see that's where the show is going. I can see Clark bowing to the wisdom of his bigotted friends, and saying that yes, he shouldn't have tried to be friends with Lex in the first place. And I don't like that way of thinking.

I don't like the concept of someone being doomed to evil. I don't like the concept that people are justified in being bigotted against you because of your family name. It's still bigotry, even if it isn't racial. So, I think it's worse than merely bad writing. It's bad ethics, or bad philosophy.

SV tried to show how someone could turn to evil, but if they're saying that the other characters on SV had a hand in this, they're not doing much to make that clear to the characters themselves. Did Pete Ross ever learn that his bigotry was wrong, I wonder?

Ack! This is turning into another long rant. :-)))

[lukita.livejournal.com]

Well I don't like bigotry either, but I understand it (sorta). There's a grandchild (I think he's at least fifty now) who was yelled at when he was a kid because his grandpa was a traitor, and there are two families who won't marry into each other's families because they fought on opposite sides of a war oh... a thousand years ago. So I understand what SV was doing with the scary Luthor name, it's just a very Asian way of thinking.

Except SV is using this bigotry as launching pad for Lex is doomed to evil campaign. It's horrible writing. I'll understand one or two characters being bigots because SV actually put a lot of emphases on the big bad Luthor name, but it doesn't justify everyone doing it. It's lazy writing, letting the audience fills in the blank because they already know so and so is going to happen. It also doesn't explain some other things, like the fact that these characters are wrong, but the audience wouldn't question it because then the audience would be wrong. SV is getting away with it because everyone knows Lex Luthor is evil. This is getting psychological...

Oh course as bigots goes, Jonathan doesn't seems to think Clark might not fall far from the tree either, especially with all the shit Red!Clark gets up to, but that's another rant entirely.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

In SV, Lex's biggest problem seems to be that every single person except for him has read the comic books. They know the ending already and so don't bother to play along with his 'good guy act'...

Actually one of the major problems with SV is that breakdown of the fourth wall; many of the chars seem to watch the show. Often what they do makes a degree of sense to the audience because of what we know of a situation, but makes less sense for the chars themselves. Such as now, Chloe and Clark's distrustful attitude toward Lexana would make more sense if they knew about the faux-baby. Or back in "Mortal", Clark violently jumps to the conclusion that Lex is behind everything with little evidence; the audience has more reason to be suspicious, but Clark shouldn't be. Very sloppy writing indeed.

[lukita.livejournal.com]

I'm still boggling about the fake!baby, shouldn't the first person to actually see the baby be our favourite stalker? Isn't he at least a little curious about Lana's baby? Especially when she's marrying Lex because of it.

"Hey Lana, you're not actually preggers, don't marry Lex."

Angst solved.

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

"Except SV is using this bigotry as launching pad for Lex is doomed to evil campaign. It's horrible writing."

Yes, yes, yes. That's what I was trying to say, in my own roundabout way. :-)))

Here's an analysis I came up with, for what SV seems to be saying with the whole Lex situation. This is just my own take on the matter, and I may well be wrong, but...

There are some people in the world who are born to be Evil, and they can't escape their Destiny. Even though they have good impulses as well, their Evil impulses will inevitably take over. They don't want this to happen, but it will. Good people know an Evil person when they see him/her, and warning signals go off. But maybe some truly innocent person, an Alien perhaps, might not know how to decipher the Evil Human Signals and need to be warned. Whatever a Good Person does, is good. Whatever an Evil Person does is Evil. Even if they do the same things.

I find this to be a frighteningly dangerous philosophy. It reminds me of certain religious beliefs about people who are destined to go to Heaven or Hell no matter what they do in life, and so one is justified in hating him or her, in advance.

I really don't know if the SV writers intended to say things like this. Probably not. Most people wouldn't analyze the show this way, either. They'd just say, 'Oh, Lex is Evil. Get over it.' But it justifies the belief that Good People can do no wrong. Like '24'. Jack Bauer can torture people, and it doesn't make him evil because he's good.

And thanks for bringing up the Red Clark matter. If Lex is to blame for what his father did, why shouldn't Clark be to blame for what his family or his entire race did to Earth. By sending Clark to Earth, Jor-El caused a great deal of damage. Where does all this end?

[lukita.livejournal.com]

Yes! Analyzing SV is scary business.

truly innocent person, an Alien perhaps, might not know how to decipher the Evil Human Signals and need to be warned

But then I have to say to the innocent alien. Dood, you've been living with humans for how long? Please don't tell me everything you believe in about humanity changes because you found out you're not one.

certain religious beliefs about people who are destined to go to Heaven or Hell no matter what they do in life

Oh I remember reading about that in... Grade 7, I think, we did religions studies then since there's no way you'll get me to read a religious book otherwise. The first thing that popped into my mind was, "I thought the whole heaven and hell thing in the afterlife is a form of group control".

Jack Bauer can torture people, and it doesn't make him evil because he's good Yesh, scary.

Red Clark matter

Oh I think I can rant all day about that one. As cool as seing Clark goes bad, at the end of the day, Clark himself admits that's what he wants to do, the red!K just lets him not care about the consequences. And I don't think I can say this enough, Jor-el is a manipulator even after he's dead, no one can be more evil than that.