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xparrot(Have yet to see 3x12, am waiting for ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
gnine to wake up to watch it together! WAH!)
I think I need to stay out of Who-fandom, or at least stick to the fringes. As far as fic goes, I am back to fan square one - I can only read (the as-ever non-existent) gen. I've tried several smart, well-written stories and every time there's a hint of the Doctor paired with anyone I twitch. (Never mind that these hints happen in the show itself; somehow I can gloss over them easier when not in the Doctor's head.) And for the rest of the fandom, putting aside the Who's Your Doctor? question (the Tenth, but really they're all the Doctor so I love all of them, in theory anyway, having not seen any in action before the Eighth) I am quite bi-Companionual, or pan-Companionual, in that I don't have a preferred Companion (well. Jack. Is in his own category. But then that's Jack.)
The thing is, Rose and Martha are different people, their relationship with the Doctor is totally different, and I very much enjoy both chars and both relationships.
First off, I don't see either of them as actually having a romantic (or at least sexual) relationship with the Doctor, though both of them have points they'd like to. I do think that Rose was much closer to the Doctor from earlier on, but that makes Martha's relationship with him intriguing because there's more room for it to evolve.
Rose is special. It's not that she's totally unique in the universe - or perhaps I should say it's not that she wasn't unique; travel with the Doctor leaves its mark on anyone. But when he first brought her along there's a million other girls like her in the world, more or less. And some of them might have become what she becomes, and they didn't get the chance thanks only to luck. It's what makes her easy to identify with; she's the everyman, the could-have-been-me. Rose doesn't get chosen by the Doctor because she's special; she becomes special because she is chosen by him.
But once she's chosen - she is special. She is important, and she's exactly what the Doctor needed at that time. Shattered by the Time War and what he saw and did, alone in a way even he has never been before - the Doctor needed a companion badly, even though he resists that complication in his life. Once Rose gets involved, he can't help himself; he has to have her along, seduces her into the TARDIS (in his Doctor-ly way...Nine can be so very manipulative! Leaving to give her that taste of unforgettable regret, and perfectly timing the "Did I mention it also travels in time?") and shows her things too amazing for her to walk away.
And Rose returns it, Rose gives herself to the adventure whole-heartedly. Rose gives herself to the Doctor whole-heartedly.
She can do so because of who she is; because she's only nineteen, and that's perfect, old enough to be striking out on her own in the universe, but young enough to not yet be jaded, to still be thrilled by all she sees. She's old enough to have started getting bored with the constancy of everyday life, to want more; but young enough still believe in "forever".
And the Tenth Doctor, a step removed from the Time War by his regeneration but still recovering, allows himself to give into the fantasy for a little while. Allows himself to believe in her promised forever, even though he knows it's impossible, and it heals him. The Ninth Doctor's pain is raw; he's so damaged and haunted that there's shadows in his most cheerful moments, and his manic joy in danger has a self-destructive element. The Tenth Doctor seems to enjoy himself more genuinely (which isn't to say he doesn't still bear that darkness. Ten can be scary in a way Nine could not, because Nine always suffered such guilt, and Ten doesn't always...) And Rose is no small part of his rediscovered joie de vivre.
But then he loses her. Forever ends.
Then he gets Martha. You have to feel for Martha. She's well aware of the physical dangers, but she doesn't know what she's getting into emotionally. The Doctor needs companionship; he cannot be alone. (Oh boy, can he not be. The Ninth Doctor probably would have gotten himself killed eventually, going it alone; the Tenth, though...I'd worry less about Ten and more about the rest of the universe...) But at the same time he doesn't want a Companion now. Losing Rose hurt, not the abstract, unfathomable tragedy of losing all his people; but a close, real, personal heartbreak, and he doesn't want to get close enough to anyone to have to suffer that again.
This, Martha can grasp; it's a trial of a rebound relationship. What is more difficult for her to understand is what Rose really was to the Doctor; at first she naturally assumes Rose is an ex-girlfriend, and it takes her a bit of experience with the Doctor to understand it doesn't work like that with him. She still has misperceptions about Rose that are only just now getting cleared up, the main one being the circumstances of Rose's departure. From what the Doctor says (about Rose being alive and with her family and such), I think Martha concludes that either Rose left him, or it was a mutual break-up that the Doctor later regretted (and isn't that just like a bloke, to be pining for the one that got away, even if he let her go!) Small wonder she vaguely resents Rose, for getting all this attention and causing the Doctor so much hurt. It's probably not until "Utopia", when she hears him explaining it to Jack, that Martha could understand that it wasn't a choice, and that Rose might have been just as hurt by it.
Martha will still probably be somewhat jealous of Rose, and with reason; the Doctor clearly loved her, and while the Doctor does care for Martha, it's just as clearly not the same. But then, it's not the same for Martha, either. She's a different person than Rose, in a different place in her life. Rose had no direction, nothing she really wanted to do with herself; the Doctor gave her direction, more incredible than she ever dreamed. While as Martha has a career, and one she intends to get back to for all the wonders she's seen, a life she's still planning to live.
To Martha, her time in the TARDIS is a wonderful, insane vacation from real life. As scary and dangerous as it can be, I think in some ways it's not real to her. Especially because she is a doctor-in-training; she's a questioner by nature (probably asked "why" three times as much as the average four-year-old, growing up, pity her parents!) with an analytical, rational mind; and the sheer unreason of the Doctor's life is blowing her mind, a bit. There's got to be a corner of her mind where she's wondering if she's just gone completely round the bend, snapped from med-student stress. It's a holiday, it's a game, and the Doctor is the tour guide and Dungeon Master. She trusts him absolutely, because it's his game and he's a nice guy, one who wouldn't hurt her, so he won't allow her to be hurt. And she crushes on him because he's cute and he's smart and he's funny and he's in charge; and if she's the heroine then he's the hero, so it's only natural. I don't think she quite thinks of the Doctor as a real person, not exactly. She's far more aware of his alien-ness than Rose was. Rose had moments that she realized the Doctor acted alien, but she always thought of him as a man, a seeming human being first ("The aliens...they're so alien. You look at them, and they're...alien." But the Doctor isn't, not to her.) While as the first day Martha met the Doctor, she learned he had two hearts. From the beginning she's been entirely aware that he's not human. She crushes on his human appearance, but I think is always concious that it is just an appearance. His alien nature amazes and impresses her, but I think she was sort of serious when she joked about only going for humans. And she knows the Doctor isn't one.
Which is why those moments he is humanized - or alienized, or mortalized - those moments he shows himself vulnerable, that he isn't just an alien enigma but a living, emotional being - those moments scare Martha. In "42," seeing him so hurt and afraid shook her hard. I think for a lot of reasons, not the least of which because that's when it's not a game or a holiday; it's real, the danger is real, and what's at stake is real, and that's frightening. And also perhaps because she gets closer to the Doctor then; Martha finds herself caring about not just the human he seems to be, but the person he really is, alien as that person may be.
And that should be terrifying. This isn't to say that Martha is prejudiced against aliens. But the Doctor isn't just inhuman. He's incredibly powerful, so amazingly different and wonderful and terrible. Loving someone like that...is terrifying. It's loving a demi-god, loving the sun; it's overwhelming, and you can get burned.
Rose never thought of it like that. But Rose didn't think too deeply about relationships; she's very emotional, preferred to feel her way rather than think it through. Martha is a more analytical person, the type who walks into a relationship with her eyes open. That she walked into the TARDIS with the Doctor - I think that was a moment of rebellion for her, a moment she decided to be crazy. Cutting loose for once, like running away to party the weekend before finals. But when she's made to realize it's more than that - how much more it is - that scares Martha, understandably. In "Family of Blood" she tells John Smith how much the Doctor means to her - and then tries to shrug it off afterwards, not only because she's embarrassed, but because she doesn't want to think about it. She might be focusing on her crush on the Doctor because thinking about the truth - that she's not falling in love with him, with all the giddy fun excitement of new romance; but is instead starting to love him, completely crazy and dangerous as that can be - is a bit much for her to handle. Especially when on vacation!
I am so very curious where their relationship is going to progress (*crosses fingers and lights candles, please please PLEASE let both Martha and Ten be back next season. Ten especially. If we lose David Tennant, I will bawl.*) I wonder if Martha's 'on holiday' attitude, already being fractured, might be shattered by the finale. This is the first time she's really faced a genuine danger to her own world, her own time (the Lazarus experiment was a fluke aberration, and so small scale she could shrug it off.) It might change her perspective, bring her beyond the point of no return, the point where she can't just go back to her old life and pick up right where she left off. Oh, she could still go back to school, and I'd like to see her become a real doctor - but looking to a higher cause, aware of what's out there and doing something about it. The 21st Century is when everything changes...
I'd also really like to see Martha get over her crush, to move past the unrequited love and into full friendship with the Doctor. Platonic male/female friendship is so rare on TV, and so very precious for being so rare. (Either way, though, they better keep up the hugging. It makes me happy, every time!)
Martha is never going to have with the Doctor what he had with Rose. I doubt Martha will ever promise him forever. She's too aware of the impossibility. Partly because she thinks things through more, but partly it's just life experience. Rose never really had to say good-bye in her life. Her father died before she could remember; otherwise, she always had her mother, always had Mickey, always had other friends. Even when she goes off with the Doctor, she isn't leaving her old life; she can still return to it, and does. Rose was cheating, in a way; growing up is about leaving home, about leaving people behind as you become your own person. But Rose was living in the same place she had grown up, was around the same people she had grown up with. Even after going to all those amazing places and meeting so many new people, she didn't choose between that new life and her old one; she could come back whenever she wanted, never had to deal with change, never had to leave anyone behind, until the walls of the universes came down between her and the Doctor. Until that moment, she could believe in things lasting forever because everything she knew had, for all her life.
Martha's only a few years older than Rose, but she's got more experience growing up. She went off to university, graduated and moved onto medical school; she left her family home and lives in her own place. She understands about change, about going ahead and moving on, about transience. Also, studying to be a doctor, she'd have experience with death and dying that Rose didn't have until she met the Doctor; Martha already knew that life can be short, and that all life ends. (Which must make the Doctor all the more disturbingly inhuman to her...) But at the same time, Martha would know that good-bye doesn't have to be forever, either; that you can move on but still stay in touch. And that the experiences and relationships you have, transient though they might be, are still absolutely important. And Martha is going to be as changed as Rose, by the end, most likely; one can't travel with the Doctor and not be.
For his part, I think the Doctor needs Martha's caring friendship now as much as he needed Rose's impossible promises then. His relationship with Martha might not become as intense as that with Rose, but could be as deep, and he needs that, needs to be close, and have people close to him. Needs to not be alone. The problem with Rose's promise is that it couldn't last; it was always a lie. Martha's friendship can be truer. What he had with Rose was special; what he has with Martha is less special, is something he could more easily have with other people - but that's so important for him, because humans don't last forever, and he'll need to find other people, someday.
Yet every friendship is different; Martha Jones isn't quite like anyone else in the world, either, and the Doctor knows and values that. And Martha has self-confidence enough that she doesn't need the Doctor's singular love to validate herself ("I make us sound like stray dogs...maybe we are," and she sounds more understanding than resentful.) Someday the Doctor may travel with others, but right now he's traveling with her, and she's going to enjoy that for all it's worth.
--She's awake! Off to watch~!
gnine to wake up to watch it together! WAH!)I think I need to stay out of Who-fandom, or at least stick to the fringes. As far as fic goes, I am back to fan square one - I can only read (the as-ever non-existent) gen. I've tried several smart, well-written stories and every time there's a hint of the Doctor paired with anyone I twitch. (Never mind that these hints happen in the show itself; somehow I can gloss over them easier when not in the Doctor's head.) And for the rest of the fandom, putting aside the Who's Your Doctor? question (the Tenth, but really they're all the Doctor so I love all of them, in theory anyway, having not seen any in action before the Eighth) I am quite bi-Companionual, or pan-Companionual, in that I don't have a preferred Companion (well. Jack. Is in his own category. But then that's Jack.)
The thing is, Rose and Martha are different people, their relationship with the Doctor is totally different, and I very much enjoy both chars and both relationships.
First off, I don't see either of them as actually having a romantic (or at least sexual) relationship with the Doctor, though both of them have points they'd like to. I do think that Rose was much closer to the Doctor from earlier on, but that makes Martha's relationship with him intriguing because there's more room for it to evolve.
Rose is special. It's not that she's totally unique in the universe - or perhaps I should say it's not that she wasn't unique; travel with the Doctor leaves its mark on anyone. But when he first brought her along there's a million other girls like her in the world, more or less. And some of them might have become what she becomes, and they didn't get the chance thanks only to luck. It's what makes her easy to identify with; she's the everyman, the could-have-been-me. Rose doesn't get chosen by the Doctor because she's special; she becomes special because she is chosen by him.
But once she's chosen - she is special. She is important, and she's exactly what the Doctor needed at that time. Shattered by the Time War and what he saw and did, alone in a way even he has never been before - the Doctor needed a companion badly, even though he resists that complication in his life. Once Rose gets involved, he can't help himself; he has to have her along, seduces her into the TARDIS (in his Doctor-ly way...Nine can be so very manipulative! Leaving to give her that taste of unforgettable regret, and perfectly timing the "Did I mention it also travels in time?") and shows her things too amazing for her to walk away.
And Rose returns it, Rose gives herself to the adventure whole-heartedly. Rose gives herself to the Doctor whole-heartedly.
She can do so because of who she is; because she's only nineteen, and that's perfect, old enough to be striking out on her own in the universe, but young enough to not yet be jaded, to still be thrilled by all she sees. She's old enough to have started getting bored with the constancy of everyday life, to want more; but young enough still believe in "forever".
And the Tenth Doctor, a step removed from the Time War by his regeneration but still recovering, allows himself to give into the fantasy for a little while. Allows himself to believe in her promised forever, even though he knows it's impossible, and it heals him. The Ninth Doctor's pain is raw; he's so damaged and haunted that there's shadows in his most cheerful moments, and his manic joy in danger has a self-destructive element. The Tenth Doctor seems to enjoy himself more genuinely (which isn't to say he doesn't still bear that darkness. Ten can be scary in a way Nine could not, because Nine always suffered such guilt, and Ten doesn't always...) And Rose is no small part of his rediscovered joie de vivre.
But then he loses her. Forever ends.
Then he gets Martha. You have to feel for Martha. She's well aware of the physical dangers, but she doesn't know what she's getting into emotionally. The Doctor needs companionship; he cannot be alone. (Oh boy, can he not be. The Ninth Doctor probably would have gotten himself killed eventually, going it alone; the Tenth, though...I'd worry less about Ten and more about the rest of the universe...) But at the same time he doesn't want a Companion now. Losing Rose hurt, not the abstract, unfathomable tragedy of losing all his people; but a close, real, personal heartbreak, and he doesn't want to get close enough to anyone to have to suffer that again.
This, Martha can grasp; it's a trial of a rebound relationship. What is more difficult for her to understand is what Rose really was to the Doctor; at first she naturally assumes Rose is an ex-girlfriend, and it takes her a bit of experience with the Doctor to understand it doesn't work like that with him. She still has misperceptions about Rose that are only just now getting cleared up, the main one being the circumstances of Rose's departure. From what the Doctor says (about Rose being alive and with her family and such), I think Martha concludes that either Rose left him, or it was a mutual break-up that the Doctor later regretted (and isn't that just like a bloke, to be pining for the one that got away, even if he let her go!) Small wonder she vaguely resents Rose, for getting all this attention and causing the Doctor so much hurt. It's probably not until "Utopia", when she hears him explaining it to Jack, that Martha could understand that it wasn't a choice, and that Rose might have been just as hurt by it.
Martha will still probably be somewhat jealous of Rose, and with reason; the Doctor clearly loved her, and while the Doctor does care for Martha, it's just as clearly not the same. But then, it's not the same for Martha, either. She's a different person than Rose, in a different place in her life. Rose had no direction, nothing she really wanted to do with herself; the Doctor gave her direction, more incredible than she ever dreamed. While as Martha has a career, and one she intends to get back to for all the wonders she's seen, a life she's still planning to live.
To Martha, her time in the TARDIS is a wonderful, insane vacation from real life. As scary and dangerous as it can be, I think in some ways it's not real to her. Especially because she is a doctor-in-training; she's a questioner by nature (probably asked "why" three times as much as the average four-year-old, growing up, pity her parents!) with an analytical, rational mind; and the sheer unreason of the Doctor's life is blowing her mind, a bit. There's got to be a corner of her mind where she's wondering if she's just gone completely round the bend, snapped from med-student stress. It's a holiday, it's a game, and the Doctor is the tour guide and Dungeon Master. She trusts him absolutely, because it's his game and he's a nice guy, one who wouldn't hurt her, so he won't allow her to be hurt. And she crushes on him because he's cute and he's smart and he's funny and he's in charge; and if she's the heroine then he's the hero, so it's only natural. I don't think she quite thinks of the Doctor as a real person, not exactly. She's far more aware of his alien-ness than Rose was. Rose had moments that she realized the Doctor acted alien, but she always thought of him as a man, a seeming human being first ("The aliens...they're so alien. You look at them, and they're...alien." But the Doctor isn't, not to her.) While as the first day Martha met the Doctor, she learned he had two hearts. From the beginning she's been entirely aware that he's not human. She crushes on his human appearance, but I think is always concious that it is just an appearance. His alien nature amazes and impresses her, but I think she was sort of serious when she joked about only going for humans. And she knows the Doctor isn't one.
Which is why those moments he is humanized - or alienized, or mortalized - those moments he shows himself vulnerable, that he isn't just an alien enigma but a living, emotional being - those moments scare Martha. In "42," seeing him so hurt and afraid shook her hard. I think for a lot of reasons, not the least of which because that's when it's not a game or a holiday; it's real, the danger is real, and what's at stake is real, and that's frightening. And also perhaps because she gets closer to the Doctor then; Martha finds herself caring about not just the human he seems to be, but the person he really is, alien as that person may be.
And that should be terrifying. This isn't to say that Martha is prejudiced against aliens. But the Doctor isn't just inhuman. He's incredibly powerful, so amazingly different and wonderful and terrible. Loving someone like that...is terrifying. It's loving a demi-god, loving the sun; it's overwhelming, and you can get burned.
Rose never thought of it like that. But Rose didn't think too deeply about relationships; she's very emotional, preferred to feel her way rather than think it through. Martha is a more analytical person, the type who walks into a relationship with her eyes open. That she walked into the TARDIS with the Doctor - I think that was a moment of rebellion for her, a moment she decided to be crazy. Cutting loose for once, like running away to party the weekend before finals. But when she's made to realize it's more than that - how much more it is - that scares Martha, understandably. In "Family of Blood" she tells John Smith how much the Doctor means to her - and then tries to shrug it off afterwards, not only because she's embarrassed, but because she doesn't want to think about it. She might be focusing on her crush on the Doctor because thinking about the truth - that she's not falling in love with him, with all the giddy fun excitement of new romance; but is instead starting to love him, completely crazy and dangerous as that can be - is a bit much for her to handle. Especially when on vacation!
I am so very curious where their relationship is going to progress (*crosses fingers and lights candles, please please PLEASE let both Martha and Ten be back next season. Ten especially. If we lose David Tennant, I will bawl.*) I wonder if Martha's 'on holiday' attitude, already being fractured, might be shattered by the finale. This is the first time she's really faced a genuine danger to her own world, her own time (the Lazarus experiment was a fluke aberration, and so small scale she could shrug it off.) It might change her perspective, bring her beyond the point of no return, the point where she can't just go back to her old life and pick up right where she left off. Oh, she could still go back to school, and I'd like to see her become a real doctor - but looking to a higher cause, aware of what's out there and doing something about it. The 21st Century is when everything changes...
I'd also really like to see Martha get over her crush, to move past the unrequited love and into full friendship with the Doctor. Platonic male/female friendship is so rare on TV, and so very precious for being so rare. (Either way, though, they better keep up the hugging. It makes me happy, every time!)
Martha is never going to have with the Doctor what he had with Rose. I doubt Martha will ever promise him forever. She's too aware of the impossibility. Partly because she thinks things through more, but partly it's just life experience. Rose never really had to say good-bye in her life. Her father died before she could remember; otherwise, she always had her mother, always had Mickey, always had other friends. Even when she goes off with the Doctor, she isn't leaving her old life; she can still return to it, and does. Rose was cheating, in a way; growing up is about leaving home, about leaving people behind as you become your own person. But Rose was living in the same place she had grown up, was around the same people she had grown up with. Even after going to all those amazing places and meeting so many new people, she didn't choose between that new life and her old one; she could come back whenever she wanted, never had to deal with change, never had to leave anyone behind, until the walls of the universes came down between her and the Doctor. Until that moment, she could believe in things lasting forever because everything she knew had, for all her life.
Martha's only a few years older than Rose, but she's got more experience growing up. She went off to university, graduated and moved onto medical school; she left her family home and lives in her own place. She understands about change, about going ahead and moving on, about transience. Also, studying to be a doctor, she'd have experience with death and dying that Rose didn't have until she met the Doctor; Martha already knew that life can be short, and that all life ends. (Which must make the Doctor all the more disturbingly inhuman to her...) But at the same time, Martha would know that good-bye doesn't have to be forever, either; that you can move on but still stay in touch. And that the experiences and relationships you have, transient though they might be, are still absolutely important. And Martha is going to be as changed as Rose, by the end, most likely; one can't travel with the Doctor and not be.
For his part, I think the Doctor needs Martha's caring friendship now as much as he needed Rose's impossible promises then. His relationship with Martha might not become as intense as that with Rose, but could be as deep, and he needs that, needs to be close, and have people close to him. Needs to not be alone. The problem with Rose's promise is that it couldn't last; it was always a lie. Martha's friendship can be truer. What he had with Rose was special; what he has with Martha is less special, is something he could more easily have with other people - but that's so important for him, because humans don't last forever, and he'll need to find other people, someday.
Yet every friendship is different; Martha Jones isn't quite like anyone else in the world, either, and the Doctor knows and values that. And Martha has self-confidence enough that she doesn't need the Doctor's singular love to validate herself ("I make us sound like stray dogs...maybe we are," and she sounds more understanding than resentful.) Someday the Doctor may travel with others, but right now he's traveling with her, and she's going to enjoy that for all it's worth.
--She's awake! Off to watch~!
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no subject
Date: 2007-06-24 08:08 am (UTC)I look forward to seeing your reaction to 3x12.
no subject
Date: 2007-06-24 12:46 pm (UTC)I posted, but my reactions to 3x12 are for the large part unprintable, because they consisted primarily of squeaks and flailing and pounding on the floor howling with hysterical cackling. (...we actually had to pause it a couple of times...) I have lost absolutely all objectivity about this show do to the squee factor ^^;;;
Am covering mine eyes...
Date: 2007-06-24 08:43 am (UTC)But yes, the Doctor is the Doctor, and it's so silly to compare them and say this one or that one is better. I've seen most of them, and love them all.
And comparing Companions? I mean, people are people, and people who need people...
Sorry. It's late. I've been watching Mulholland Drive on DVD and I'm incoherent. Where was I? Oh, yes. Staying on the fringes of fandom is best, no matter what the fandom. Right? Or is my point, imagine the Doctor in a David Lynch movie? Either or both.
Re: Am covering mine eyes...
Date: 2007-06-24 12:50 pm (UTC)The Companions vary more, but all the ones in the new series are great, as far as I'm concerned.
Yep, fandom fringes are more relaxing! Dr. Who by David Lynch, though. UM. I'm picturing Agent Cooper in the TARDIS. Oh dear. He would get along scary well with the Doctor, actually...
Re: Am covering mine eyes...
Date: 2007-06-24 09:22 pm (UTC)That's what's so fantastic about this show. The Doctor is always the Doctor, no matter who plays him, or how. The character is so primal, so overwhelming, and he just takes over in some inexplicable way. It's amazing.
I've sort of recovered from my Mulholland Drive-induced psychosis. Last night, the juxtaposition of MD with DW was a bit much. Okay now, I think.
But Coop and the Doctor. The Doctor and Coop.
"Diane. I'm travelling in space and time in this weird blue box with a lunatic. Don't know yet if he makes damn good coffee."
Blue box. The key to Mulholland Drive. Omigod! :-)))
Re: Am covering mine eyes...
Date: 2007-06-25 04:45 am (UTC)But Coop in the TARDIS...ahhh! ...the thing is, I wrote one dark TP fic, but always had an inkling to write a Cooper-gets-fixed story, and I'm sure the Doctor could find a way to get BOB out of him, he is the Doctor and...nooo NOT thinking about this...!
Re: Am covering mine eyes...
Date: 2007-06-25 06:12 am (UTC)Coop in the Tardis. I'd love to see that, and I wonder if he'd drive the Doctor to murder, or if they'd become bosom companions. Probably the latter. They do think alike, both jumping to brilliant conclusions at a moment's notice. I just know the Doctor would find a way to drive BOB away, and then they'd go off and hunt other manifestations of BOB together. Perfect. :-)))
no subject
Date: 2007-06-24 02:03 pm (UTC)So many New fans degenerate into babble about Dr/Rose, which I do understand if that's all they know, even if I don't agree, but I think by doing that they miss out on a lot of what the show is about. It's not about an alien being in love with a human, or even a human being in love with an alien, all the characters are more complex than that.
So, yay for you! And yay that I get to read your cool essays about my fav show now, as well as SV! *grins*
(oh, and I believe Tennant is contracted for at least one more season, so there's no need to worry about him not returning. Tom Baker (Doc #4) spent a whole 7 years in the role, I'd be happy if DT did the same, yes)
no subject
Date: 2007-06-24 07:08 pm (UTC)Then, too, I'm not nearly as interested in romance as I am in other sorts of relationships, and I love the way the Doctor loves so completely, and yet not really romantically, the way his loneliness and need for companionship is both less and more than that...
Er, yes...I do tend to go on about things I'm into ^^; And I'm very into DW, at least for now! I do hope Tennant comes back...from what I know, he's not been officially contracted, but we'd probably know by now if we were losing him. And oh, I hope he matches Tom Baker's record! (heh, I have yet to see the old series, but I now know all 10 Doctors by actor name and on sight, thanks to the Confidentials!)
no subject
Date: 2007-06-24 02:31 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-24 07:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-24 08:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-24 02:52 pm (UTC)I wrote Doctor Who gen....
BACK IN 1981.
And as in my early 20s, I was nowhere near being the writer you were in your early 20s (that you are barely out of!), even if I could find my novella I wouldn't inflict it on you. Or the world. Or even myself again.
no subject
Date: 2007-06-24 07:16 pm (UTC)Though the old series...fic'ing for it would probably be quite different. The Doctor has changed, I think...not just his actor, but his new history has had some impact (don't know how much you know about the new series, but he's now the last of the Time Lords...or second-to-last, as it turns out...but yes, the aaaaaangst potential has been, I suspect, amped up for the 21st century...!)
WARNING SOUND OF DRUMS SPOILERS IN THIS COMMENT!!!!
Date: 2007-06-24 10:49 pm (UTC)BTW, as regards last ep, is it me or was the Doctor's parting example comment, 'I know what it's like... it's like being in love with someone who doesn't even know your'er there.' (or words to that effect) a little bit... vicious. Like he's snipign at her. Which I find very interesting.
As regards the Doctor I do find it facinating, and I wouldn't be suprised if they played with this again in the future, that everyone seems to fall in love with him, one way or another. It's like... to know him is to love him. Even his enemeis (The Master) get that way. And that's often not a good thing at all. Not for anyone!
It's really good to read views like this, BTW. Sometimes in Fandom I feel like there are these massive schisms. Between those who think the doctor is entirely asexual, and those who think he's a ravin' love maniac (well, not that bad but...) and then those who think it's Doctor and Rose 4 eva and those who think it's obviously Martha, who is just SOOO cool. Of course, this is by no means all the fandom and for the most part it's quite a nice place but it does feel very scismish like this sometimes. Which is hard because, like you, I love both Martha and Rose on their own merits (I prefer Martha as a character, but I think Rose was obviously the one more meant for the Doctor on a romantic level.) and because I think the Doctor HAS a sex drive but I think it's very low. So yeah, a nice balenced, and interesting view is really well loved.
And God, I so love you for saying that you're not a big fan of Romance. Because you are so RIGHT, it's all in the character interaction, man! Which is why I am ADORING teh current Doctor/Master stuff. There's just so much to work from there... old eneimes, last of their kind, love/hate relationship... wow... hehehe.
Ok, I'll stop squeeing now and try and leave with my dignity intact. :D
Re: WARNING SOUND OF DRUMS SPOILERS IN THIS COMMENT!!!!
Date: 2007-06-25 04:56 am (UTC)The "it's like fancying someone who doesn't know you exist" line, yessss...that seemed awfully perceptive and a bit cruel for the Doctor. It could have been just coincidence but...I wondered if it were sniping, or more the Doctor making an observation of a sort, not realizing how terribly mean it is (he does tend to do that...) But then, I did adore Jack's "You too, huh." All sympathy because he's in the same boat...
Of course everyone falls in love with the Doctor, how could you not? ^_^ But really, I think they do a good job with making the char appealing like that. He's got such a force of personality, and such compassion and cleverness, and he saves people...small wonder they fall.
...I may be a little biased, being quite thoroughly under the Doctor's spell myself ^^;
I haven't really touched the fandom, and it's partly because everywhere I go I seem to see people choosing sides on pairings or Doctors or whatever...maybe I've just been in the wrong places! But then I'm also not that interested in fic and such, and that's what usually drives me into a fandom proper.
(Regarding the Doctor's sex drive,
Yup, romance is pretty low on the scale of relationships that fascinate me. Friendship, family, and nemeses are much higher, and DW pushes those buttons nicely!
Re: WARNING SOUND OF DRUMS SPOILERS IN THIS COMMENT!!!!
Date: 2007-06-25 12:37 pm (UTC)But that amazing charaisma is also a bit dangerous too, isn't it? Because, like RTD says, he is a great guy who helps the universe and wants to make people be the best they can be, sure. But eh also sends people to their deaths. Not intentionally, but he does it. I mean, if he'd never met Jack would he have died on the Space station, fighting those Dasleks? (OK, he came back again, but that's not the point.) If he hadn't met Martha would she have got into half the trouble she ended up in? One could argue yes or no or all sorts of things, but it's true that whilst the Doctor does save lives he does leave a trail of death and destruction behind him. And his views of what is right is not always... well... right. OK, nine times out of ten they are, but part of his problem is (as again has been noted before) he doesn't always stick around to clear up the mess. The Space Station in series one is prime example but, as I'm sure others have pointed out, so is this entire Saxon fiasco.
If the Doctor hadn't removed Hariette Jones from power would Saxon have been able to get in? And wasn't that the least bit cruel, him doing that? I mean you might not agree with her decision to kill the Xorax (or whatever they were called) but she had a good point. Humanity can't always depend on the Doctor being around. Humanity can't always depend on him being the one to repell/warn off any alien invaders. They've got to stand up for themselves, to make their own decisions, to enter the universe their way. At the end of the day, if you think of it one way, if the Doctor continues to pull stunts like this then what, really, is the difference between him and the Master? The only one is that the Doctor is one pulling the strings from behind the scenes. Benevelently, maybe, but it's still a sort of dictatorship.
I see where you are coming from as regards the sex drive thing and that makes a lot of sense. I'd also add, though, that I think the Doctor (and perhaps time lords in general) are a much more... cereberal race than the humans. I think he generally is more interested in the emotional and mental pay offs of a relationship than he is in the physical. For whatever reason. Or that's my take, anyway.
The Doctor is such a facinating character! I could talk about him all day! And the best thing is, if it carries on as it is, the Master is going to turn into just as an interesting character!
Re: WARNING SOUND OF DRUMS SPOILERS IN THIS COMMENT!!!!
Date: 2007-06-25 03:39 pm (UTC)"The Doctor is worth the monsters." That's what it comes down to, does it balance...and the show doesn't really tell you, it doesn't force you to accept that, but then the Doctor is so amazing and wonderful that one can't help but think the universe is a better place for him...!
Taking down Harriet Jones...that was a tough call. I don't think the Doctor is setting up a dictatorship; I don't think he thinks that he is humanity's chosen protector and humans can't protect themselves without his permission. It's rather, the extent we humans go to, how we choose to do it. Harriet Jones crossed the line and put herself on the opposite side as the Doctor. Because he's not just humanity's protector; he'll protect anyone who needs it. And if the aliens need protecting from humans...
There's not a good or an evil in that. It's hard to even say if there's a right or a wrong. The Doctor can be wrong. And yet he does have the hubris to call himself a moral authority anyway. Which, well...the Time Lords are pretty close to being gods, are raised to it; it's pretty ingrained in him. The two things, I think, that separate him from the Master are, one, his motives - he genuinely does want to help, wants to maintain order (at least to the point of keeping the universe from imploding or somesuch!); and two, his ability to forgive. Because the Doctor is compassionate, and merciful, and will even consider the possibility that the Dalek might change, will even give them a second chance.
But he is still dangerous. I don't blame Torchwood for having protocols against him (and TW in the show is an antagonist, but never presented as evil...)
...yes, he's fascinating, I can go on about him for quite a while myself! ^_^
(in lighter debate, the sex drive question - one thing that amuses me about Ten is that while the sexual seems pretty low-priority to him, the platonic physical is important - he loves hugging and hand-holding and that kind of closeness, which just tickles me!)
Re: WARNING SOUND OF DRUMS SPOILERS IN THIS COMMENT!!!!
Date: 2007-06-25 04:40 pm (UTC)It's a complex idea and not terribly coherent. And I do still think that in general the Doctor is wise enough and gentel enuogh to make sure this never happens but still...
If you are interested in more of my thoughts on Ten then here's a post detailing some stuff. ignore the bitst after the spoiler warning, it's pretty much all defunct now anyway.
http://yma2.livejournal.com/109998.html#cutid1
Oh, and if you click on my most recent entry there's a Yu-Gi-Oh/Doctor Who crossover fic which I wrote on request. Not one of my best works but you might be interested. ::shrug::
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Date: 2007-06-26 10:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2007-06-27 05:18 am (UTC)and there is plenty left for you to write! :P For one, the fic is just not going to happen in any great amount (it's too Type A-fandom for me, and I feel hopelessly inadequate trying to capture the awesomeness that is the Doctor...) and besides you've got great perspective on the chars and the fandom and I want to read 'em! Whenever you have time from the thesis ^_^
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Date: 2007-06-27 02:03 pm (UTC)Eh. I'm not angsting on you or anything, I'm just saying - I miss you. And I miss having you around to fan with... Last year spoiled me. Made me realize how awesome it is to be able to meet up for supper and karaoke and get stuck on a bridge discussing character motivations and possible background scenarios, and not have to squeeze it all into a few short days.
Anyway! You realize our icons only have a couple of caps that are of the same frames, don't you? This show is SO GOOD at the hugs! ♥ (Even Evil does it! Jack just needs to hug his team more, that's what's missing from Torchwood... see, they didn't mind it at all when he finally did it!)
Anti-anyone in this fandom makes me feel vaguely hurt and insulted, and quite disgusted. So I'm so glad you wrote this, because I think it's all positive and true!
It's not the matter of taking time from the thesis - right now it's that I literally cannot get Doctor Who out of my head. I can't. I try, and - no. So. I babble (wow, did I go on about The Sound of Drums!) and squee and carry on in a general fangirly manner. And try not to think about the no more episodes after next week, because it's - I can't just switch off the fanning, and even if I do, I want to be able to switch it back on for next season!