more thoughts on "Last Man", redux!

[xparrot]

...I swear, I'll stop going on about this. Um. Soon. For now, an addendum to my previous post - I take back half of what I said in that. I just realized it's even McSheppier than I thought. (and yes, I know I'm giving this far more thought than the actual writers. But hey, they're not OTPers. This is what we live for!)

So I was saying that Rodney didn't get the idea of how to use John to save the galaxy until Jennifer dies. I still stand by that - the idea's insane, and he needed something to push him over the edge.

Here's the thing, though - his idea hinges on saving John. Except...it doesn't have to be John.

As far as I follow it, Rodney's 25-year science project was based on finding a way to predict solar flare activity such that he could find a flare that would send Sheppard back in time 48,000 years, to that 2-month window where he still could solve things, 'put right what once went wrong.' This isn't easy - he had to put John in stasis for an unspecified period of time (700-1,000 years he was estimating) to wait for the right flare.

Except that if Rodney figured out the flares that exactly - wouldn't it have been easier to find another one to send himself back? Or some newbie scientist or strapping young Marine he could persuade into it? He could have put himself/someone else into cold storage and waited (if necessary) several thousand years for the right flare to come around, and only be going back a fraction of the time.

Instead, Rodney puts everything on getting to Sheppard - on taking the risk that Atlantis would still be there after almost fifty millennia, on the risk that Sheppard would survive the trip - because John's loss was the first thing that went wrong, and if Rodney's going to fix something, he's going to fix it all.

Comments

[lukita.livejournal.com]

*shields eyes from spoilers* Ha ha, who am I kidding? I really should rethink my idea to actually watch the series at my snail pace instead of watching two seasons at once. :p

[(Anonymous)]

Huh. Interesting. I admit I agreed with your first post totally on the idea that Rodney had only not attempted to rescue John before Jennifer's death because he was absolutely convinced it was impossible, and with no support on or away from Atlantis, with Zelenka unavailable (and doubtless also despairing) and Sam dead and John gone, gone, gone, he had no one to either convince him it wasn't impossible, or to help him make it a reality. I've said elsewhere that I thought his insistence to Woolsey that John wasn't dead was the same kind of denial that kept him from saying farewell to Carson--Rodney's an astrophysicist; he knows what generally happens to solar systems after nearly fifty thousand years. I'm sure in his heart of hearts he figured John was dead, really and truly, he just would take longer to die than anyone else anywhere.

So he tried to go on, and it kind of worked, and then the universe fucks him over yet one more time when Jennifer--whom I don't doubt he loved, but it was a love borne of shared experience and pain and grief and the fact that no one else could understand him, or her (I'm leaving out Evan Lorne here, because I'm sure that Rodney blamed Evan, even subconsciously, for losing both Teyla and John and starting the slide), that well--succumbs to Michael as well.

And then he just loses it, and spends the rest of his life in miserable, obsessive loneliness, on the off-chance he can fix it all in another universe. Wow.

The place where I wasn't with you was that as far as I could tell, it could have been anyone 48 thousand years in the future, basically anyone who could come back with information, because that was what Rodney was counting on--no John making the difference, but his information. As far as I could tell, Rodney was never talking about how John would change everything, but the knowledge he had of where to find Teyla would. John was part of the equation, but his rescue wasn't a priority.

Except--you're right. If it was just a question of time travel, there was no reason to wait that long, or to go so far in the future (especially as a similar flare seemed to happen every 700 years or so). Rodney could definitely have sent himself back, if he couldn't find a volunteer, and Teyla would have been saved anyway. And he could have even received all the stunned accolades in person.

But he chose instead to program a simulacrum of himself and wait in a dying city until the sun nearly burned out to make sure it was John who got back. Which is, in the reality of things, a huge waste of time and effort, isn't it? Talk about going out of your way.

Well, thank you very, very much. Both for your original post and this addition. I liked the episode from the outset, but was feeling weird about it the more reviews I'd read. Now you've helped me get back to McKay/Sheppard friendship at least, if nothing more. And my goodness, if it's not enough to last until the end of time. Awesome. :)

Leah

[trobadora]

Yes! And in addition to that, it's not so much about saving Sheppard as it is about getting Sheppard to save everyone. Such is his faith. :-)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

*tempt tempt teeeeempt* It is totally worth blitzing the show to get to this ep *nods seriously*

[darsynia.livejournal.com]

Wow, I hadn't thought of that. Because, yeah, Rodney figures out when John gets there and throws himself wholly and completely into the idea of saving John--which leaves the whacked out version of life that diverged when John disappeared as 'canon' for 48,000 YEARS. That goes way beyond 'I've gotta fix this' and into the realm of exactly as you said 'I'm going to fix this right, RIGHT when it went wrong, or not at all.'

I think this is all the more powerful when viewed through the lens of SG-1's Moebius, where at the end of it, they're all 'well, it looks like it probably all turned out the same' and shrug off little differences. Rodney is nothing if not thorough. It also strikes me that this is, as you said, a John thing, because sure, he wants to save them all and that's one of the reasons that he makes sure that it's John he saves, leaving the horrible future to stay as it is for tens of thousands of years after he himself has died--but, seriously, there's Janus's time travel device schematics somewhere, maybe? Or the fact that he'd made it at all, meaning it's possible to make it, as well as the idea of the solar flares--there are all sorts of immediate solutions that Rodney being the genius he is had to have thought of.

And, you know, I was thinking after I wrote that last bit, that saving John is sort of like Rodney's big fuck you to the SGC and that whole universe for accepting its own fate. Because, it's hard not to get the sense that they've lost their moral compass, and Sam of all people should have been one to recognize the signs of something that had to be fixed, but her scenes had just as much if not more despair in them (her goodbye to Rodney, the look on her face when she realized he didn't see it as a goodbye) as anything else. Something broke our guys, because Stargate heroes don't tend to give up that easily. That makes me feel like the scene with Lorne was more than just allowing us to see Lorne's life in the World of OMFG Doom, more than the implication that Pegasus was pretty much lost and the Milky Way was headed in that direction. There was a fatalism, a sense of holding on by one's fingernails, and Lorne gets it, General though he is, and probably the most well-adjusted out of the whole expedition.

I hope this makes sense...

[starry-diadem.livejournal.com]

Marry me.

I have been wondering if people watched the same episode as I did, because it's almost painfully clear that Rodney-Jennifer happened because they are two people who have lost everything, who have lived extraordinary lives in an extraordinary place, and there is - almost literally - no-one else alive to share that with. They are people set apart. It makes total sense that they cling to each other and, as you say, whether they would have made it as a couple is a moot point given J's death. I am complete agreement with your analysis of Rodney's epiphany, as J dies, that he can change the whole timeline and that burns through him until he succeeds.

My only quibble with it, as a season ender, is that I'd have preferred it to end with John falling out of the pod, with Holo-Rodney exhorting him on and him crawling to the Gateroom and falling into the wormhole. CUT! The dramatic tension would have been infinitely higher and within the episode we would have had a single story. The final few minutes felt like the start of the next epsiode, not the end of this one.

Thank you for sharing.

Edited to roll eyes at my spelling. 'epsiode' indeed! Sorry

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Rodney's an astrophysicist; he knows what generally happens to solar systems after nearly fifty thousand years.

Hee - well, if he were an astrophysicist in our universe, he'd have known that stars tend to take on the order of a billion years to heat up and go red giant. But SG physics work a wee bit different from ours, soooo... ^^ (I nitpick 'cuz I love; really I have only fond amusement for SG's "science" fiction!)

The place where I wasn't with you was that as far as I could tell, it could have been anyone 48 thousand years in the future, basically anyone who could come back with information,

Yes, I could see how this could be read differently - to me, Rodney was relying on John to be more than a tape-deck; John was almost a talisman in his mind, if he could get John back then everything would be solved. If it was only sending back information that mattered - there had to be an easier way! Some way to bend a gate to squirt a datastream back to himself, or something...! But instead, it's John he has to save - out of his way indeed!

And glad to bring back the McSheppiness, friendship or other! I loved the ep myself - and to the end of time, indeed! ^_^

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I know! They're all about counting on one another - John counts on Rodney getting him anything he needs or anywhere he needs to be, and Rodney counts on John to save the day with what Rodney provides him with!

more thoughts on "Last Man", redux!

[maxinemayer.livejournal.com]

Oh, man, the more you say, the better I like it!
Love you, max

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I know! This didn't occur to me until someone else was pointing out that Rodney was really just using John like a tape-player, to bring information back - which wasn't how I saw it, but they said that it could have been anyone, if a random Marine had been sent forward Rodney would have used him. But then I was like, hey wait a minute, why didn't Rodney use someone else...! Or just found a way to send a message back to himself, not even a person. But. Yes. John's loss was when it all went wrong, and it was save John or bust - even if that meant his plan might not succeed at all.

I think this is all the more powerful when viewed through the lens of SG-1's Moebius, where at the end of it, they're all 'well, it looks like it probably all turned out the same' and shrug off little differences.

Yes! Well, obviously saving John is a rather bigger difference than O'Neill's pond having fish. But the contrast is there, definitely (a lot of SGA runs counter to SG-1, I've noticed - "Miller's Crossing" is the big one. SG-1 got used to reluctantly letting one another make sacrifices - but John will not allow any of his team to do so. Rodney only got away with it this time because John was 48,000 years too late to save him from himself!)

And, you know, I was thinking after I wrote that last bit, that saving John is sort of like Rodney's big fuck you to the SGC and that whole universe for accepting its own fate.

That's the one thing about the ep that plays a bit false to me, that the SGC would just roll over like that. Though I suppose SG-1 had lost Sam, and if something happened to the others...and with Sheppard and most of his team gone and Rodney broken, yes, Atlantis would have to fold to the IOA. And then Rodney makes it right anyway, because if there's just one member of an SG team remaining, they will save the universe - that's just what they do! And Lorne knows this, and lets Rodney do it.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

It seems a whole bunch of us were in a parallel universe, watching the *good* version of the ep! I really liked the Rodney/Keller we got in the ep, to be honest; something about that kind of isolated relationship that probably wouldn't have worked out (I don't know if either of them could have ever really gotten over Atlantis and Pegasus) gets to me.

And I had the exact same problem with you in regards to the end - I prefer to pretend it ended with John getting frozen, though I very much enjoy your version! (my other quibble was what became of Zelenka? I felt sorry for him, all left out!)

Re: more thoughts on "Last Man", redux!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

^_^ I'm glad you do! The more I think about the ep, the more I enjoy it - it's one of my very favorites!

[shinigrace.livejournal.com]

Must watch episode MORE! I've decided I'm just going to stop it when John gets frozen. But yay gateworld gave us confirmation that it's starting in the summer! Our suffering will be shorter. I'm all about more commentaries from you on this ep!

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

I love and agree with everything you've said here (and there, and everywhere *g*). It was such a McSheppy episode in the best way possible, and you do a great job showing exactly how and why.

[trystings.livejournal.com]

Here's the thing, though - his idea hinges on saving John. Except...it doesn't have to be John.

But in Rodney's mind in does. From his point of view everything goes wrong after Sheppard ends up in the future; it's like Sheppard's absence leaves a hole in the timeline and the whole thing starts to unravel. I don't think Rodney should go back in his timeline, he's already in his past and it will only make things more complicated, same goes for the Marine. The only one who isn't 'there' anymore, but should have been, is Sheppard and the only way to reverse everything that went wrong, including Rodney's doomed relationship, is to get Sheppard back.

I also have a question, maybe someone here can tell me if I missed some vital detail. Sheppard needs to stay in stasis for 700-1000 years until the right solar flare comes along. Rodney discovers (fairly late btw) that the system's sun will go red giant in 500 years killing Sheppard once he exits stasis, so he fixes the solar panels to give Sheppard an "extra hundred years or so". As far as I can tell, that adds up to 600 years and the shields would have failed by the time Sheppard exits; did I miss something?

[arby-m.livejournal.com]

did I miss something?

Nope! I noticed the exact same thing - and me and numbers/math are bitter enemies. I think Rodney even says something like, "We'll have to hope for the best" or "it's the best we can do".

It's not like predicting solar flares and doing time travel are the most exact of sciences, so they could have been off either way and as long as the movement was closer together, it wouldn't matter.

Edited because I'm a Virgo I must fix minor infelicities that no one else would notice.

[dovil.livejournal.com]

*nods and points* Exactly!

[sweeneybird.livejournal.com]

I'm with you - the Rodney/Jennifer thing was two sad lonely people clinging to each other. I think they loved each other, but neither of them had any passion - hell, that kiss didn't even include upper body contact! And walking arm in arm down the sidewalk - wouldn't you hold hands? I like your theory and am willing to subscribe to your newsletter. =^D

[dovil.livejournal.com]

I thought another thing that was important that was shown in the episode is the fact that he essentially pushes away his sister, his obsession is so great to the detriment of everything. He really does gamble away all his future happiness on the slight possibility of getting back the status quo - he gives up his future in order to get back the past. That's really putting the martyr into martyrdom, because why throw yourself on the grenade once when you can keep on doing it for 25 years.

Okay, I might be getting a bit overly dramatic now, but still, huge!

[solar-cat.livejournal.com]

YES. To this, and to your original post on the topic. I'm SO glad that there are other people out there who are reading this episode the same way I was!! As much as I do like Rodney/Jennifer much better than Rodney/Katie, the relationship wasn't about that. They were all they had left, and they were clinging to each other. In comparison to... well, I mean. Rodney invented a new kind of math to get John back. When, as you pointed out, they could have used the SG-1 solar flare thing to send somebody back with the information, probably fairly easily. Or at least a message - "under no circumstances...", anyone? So, YES. I'm in total agreement that this was one of the McSheppiest episodes in possibly the most McSheppy season yet. *is in her happy place*

(Though, yeah, the ending felt really tacked-on. It would have been better to leave us wondering if he gets back, not if everyone lives. Since they're going to. They can't kill off the entire main cast. Kind of a boring cliffhanger, really though a part of me worries for Lorne. :\ )

[arby-m.livejournal.com]

Dude, I am so with you 200% on this interpretation. I thought the episode was really way shippier than TPTB had the faintest inkling of, and as usual they attempted to gloss over the deeper emotional implications of their storyline with a faint het coating - "look, Rodney got a girl! she may have actually slept with him!"

*drinks the McShep kool-aid*

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

The ep gets better upon rewatching - though I totally agree that stopping it with John in cold storage is the best way to go, and really wish the writers had had the will and insight to do it thusly themselves. Oh well! At least we don't have that long to wait...

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

(--"and everywhere" indeed! - my last 5 posts were all about "Last Man." Obsessed, much? But I loved the ep so! ^^;) I'm just glad all my ravings came out passingly sensical!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

But in Rodney's mind in does. From his point of view everything goes wrong after Sheppard ends up in the future; it's like Sheppard's absence leaves a hole in the timeline and the whole thing starts to unravel.

Yup! But that's the thing, it's Sheppard's loss that is key. Rodney's not just using Sheppard because he's conveniently placed - Rodney talked to old!Weir personally, he knows there would be no paradox in meeting himself. Or he could have just sent a message back, even. But Rodney apparently decides that it's not worth fixing the whole universe if he can't save Sheppard, too.

As far as I can tell, that adds up to 600 years and the shields would have failed by the time Sheppard exits; did I miss something?

No, I wondered about this myself...as far as I can tell, since the "700 years" was only an estimate, they must have just gotten lucky...

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I know - Rodney/Jennifer was very sweet but not really romantic to me. Certainly not enough that Rodney would sacrifice his whole life just to save her, when his entire team wasn't worthy of such consideration. I don't believe that, but I don't think the ep was asking for us to believe that...Jennifer was just one more loved one lost, and it's the weight of all of them that makes him do it.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

That's really putting the martyr into martyrdom, because why throw yourself on the grenade once when you can keep on doing it for 25 years.

Yes yes yes! Really, I don't think you can make it overly dramatic, what Rodney did - it's incredible! And yes - it's the way he pushes aside Jeannie that convinces me that even if Jennifer had lived, Rodney eventually would have abandoned her for his idea.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I actually liked Rodney/Jennifer as presented in the episode - but I liked it because it wasn't romantic, to me, because it was tragic and hopeless and sad, even before she was dying. I have a hard time seeing it really working out in the end even if she'd lived.

The ending of the ep also ticks me off a bit because - what was up with Rodney not knowing about the solar flare? What the heck was he doing to look for John in those 12 days? The writers easily could've had it that they knew about the flare but hadn't yet been able to calculate where it had actually sent John, I don't know why they went the make-Rodney-look-dumb route when the rest of the ep was all about establishing how crazy-brilliant he really is.

As for the very end -

though a part of me worries for Lorne.

Ack! Do not say such things! *whimpers and covers eyes. Looorne~!*

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I don't know if they were entirely oblivious - well, I doubt they intended it to be read quite this, mmm, *romantically* (like we could take such total self-sacrifice otherwise?), but even Mallozzi admitted that Rodney wasn't doing it all for Keller, that Keller was just the final straw. (okay, I'm also in the camp that Rodney kissing people is a good thing, even if those people are sadly Not-John...! But he looks so lovely, all the scenes with Keller...ya just need to take some photoshop to them, and then...)

ps. your icon = HEEE XDDDD

[trystings.livejournal.com]

But Rodney apparently decides that it's not worth fixing the whole universe if he can't save Sheppard, too.

We're in total agreement! :) I can barely wrap my brain around the fact that Rodney succeeded in changing a 48,000 year timeline and alter the universe to get Sheppard back. And I loved how Sheppard acknowledged that very thing, as soon as he got back. 'Rodney, you're a genius!' It shows you how shaken up Sheppard was - he usually jokes to avoid feeding Rodney's ego.

Oh, the McSheppiness of it all! :)

[velocitygrass.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much for your posts. I've been thinking along similar lines, but this last one didn't quite click until now. I did have the feeling that it meant something that for Rodney it all began with John's disappearance.

In fact it was Teyla's death which triggered Michael's rise and everything else. If it were just about Jennifer, he could have sent a note back in time, warning about the disease. Or as you said, he could have sent back anyone and it would have been far less risky, but in his mind it had to be John because that's what started it and because he has faith that John will fix it.

You are so right about John's willingness not to save a whole galaxy (not to mention to die), if it meant that Rodney could stay happy. And he says it so matter of factly.

I also noticed that Rodney didn't seem all that bothered about possibly never being with Jennifer in that alternate timeline. I don't doubt that he felt a lot for her (btw he did have a picture of her on his desk, at least in the first flashback after her death), but ultimately they were only together for a short amount of time and what brought them together was the shared pain and isolation. For Jennifer the time that they had (on Atlantis and together) was worth it and she has no regrets. Rodney on the other hand.... He's so emphatic about his regrets and as a shipper I can't help but think that John is right there on top of the list.

And yes, the idea was crazy. I'm sure that it was discussed at length with all scientists at the SGC. Neither they nor their allies nor the Asgard technology that they now have access to seemed to be able to do it. There was no reason for Rodney to think that he could do it. He had to invent the tools to start his calculations. And he seemed surprised when he actually did it. It was insane and thank you very much for putting getting the idea into context with what he said earlier: "I thought I was gonna lose my mind." Because that's really it.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I keep thinking about the ep, and it keeps getting McSheppier, the more I think about it. But this is the biggest thing for me, that it didn't have to be John - except to Rodney it did, that he couldn't have it any other way.

I agree that Jennifer definitely meant something to Rodney (I missed the photo on his desk, good catch! Though it's on his 'job desk', it looks like to me, not the table where he's working on the Idea, but presumably where he keeps his professorial stuff?) But the way he tells her of his regrets, and that he has none at all about potentially losing their relationship...that's obviously not his priority.

I loved the "I thought I was going to lose my mind," because his expression then, his mania when talking to Jennifer - it's so clear that he did. And fortunately for our timeline, he never got it back...!

I totally saw it your way

[belladonnaf66.livejournal.com]

I mean, really-he's nattering away about changing ~everything~ on Keller's deathbed. I mean, duh, she's a doctor too, not stupid. Rodney wanted to save John, that she would be accidentally saved as well was just a coincidence.

I think it was the shippiest John and Rodney episode ever...seriously.

Re: I totally saw it your way

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yup, it's the deathbed scene that really got to me. Rodney's not a man losing his One True Love; that's a man on a mission. He's not really seeing Keller at all then, he's just seeing the possibilities, that it'll be sweeping away his life with her doesn't bother him in the slightest. But that he can save John - that matters!

It's about the McSheppiest we've ever seen Rodney, I totally agree. (and way up there with John, too, wanting Rodney's happiness above all else - oh, boys!)

Re: I totally saw it your way

[belladonnaf66.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah! Paraphrasing John below...

"Why are you changing things? You got the girl!"

Slashiest to the max, baby.

[skaredykat.livejournal.com]

I agree that this episode is much more McShep than McKeller, not just in subtext but in actual text. Yet from what I gather from the Stargate franchise's handling of time-travel and -splits, The Last Man seems even McSheppier than previously posited here.

Yes, based on other instances of Stargate canon it should have been much easier and faster for Rodney to figure out the solar flare options and A) either send a marine/anyone -- or even just a note through the gate (SG-1 2010 & 2001) -- to stop the bad events after John's disappearance from happening, or B) to spend a mere few extra years figuring out a slightly more complex solar flare option that would let Rodney send someone or a message back to sometime before the day John disappeared to say "no gate travel for Sheppard on x date" -- and thus prevent John from disappearing to the far future.

But... in The Last Man, despite these different, easier (because previously done in canon) ways that exist for him to create timelines where the bad stuff wouldn't happen, Rodney chooses a much more difficult, time-consuming method. One where the only true difference he can make -- which won't even benefit himself or anyone else in his timeline, just John -- is that he ensures his original John in the original timeline won't have to die a lonely death in far future sandy!Atlantis. Super McSheppy.

Scenario A of Rodney just sending someone or a note back with the knowledge to prevent the bad things that happened after John's disappearance from happening shouldn't have been that hard. But John would still die alone in the far future.

Scenario B of Rodney sending a note through the gate to further in the past that said "no gate travel on X date for Sheppard!" to create a timeline where John would avoid getting stuck on sandy!Atlantis to begin with should also have fairly easy. Based on SG-1 Threads vs Moebius and SGA Before I Sleep (and mad_maudlin's great exploration/explanation of SG timelines/time-travel in Triptych (http://community.livejournal.com/sga_flashfic/561173.html)), the timeline would split so message-recipient!Rodney gets a world where the bad stuff doesn't happen and he keeps his John. However, not only is message-sending original!Rodney still stuck in the timeline where bad stuff happened, but original-lost!John would still die in far-future Atlantis. Not good enough for Rodney.

Rodney actually goes with Scenario C -- forget subtext, it's the canon we see – and chooses the never previously done hologram option. He spends the rest of his life figuring out how to save not just a John in a new timeline Rodney would have created at the moment he sent a message back, but instead figures out how to save his own original!John and make sure no John is left to die on far-future sandy!Atlantis. Even though he knows he (original!Rodney) himself still will never benefit from any of the changes, only new-timeline!Rodney will. The only benefit to himself, original!Rodney, over scenario B is the hope/knowledge that in his own timeline, 50,000 years on, his original!John will not die alone in Atlantis, as the new timeline will be split off when original!John travels back (leaving no John behind) instead of when Rodney sends a message back through the gate.

Even more epic McShep, it looks like...