SGA 5x09: Tracker

[xparrot]

The squee:

Rodney in black! And thigh holsters and other strapped things and mmmm! He's been looking gorgeous this season, no? And he's gotten much better at shooting Wraith these days. Even when hopping on one foot! Also fixing the device in about two minutes while walking through the woods - work those mad brains, Rodney!

Ronon of course was ho~t, kicking ass and taking Runner names (and possibly phone numbers - dude, Ronon/Runner-2 was the most chemistry I saw in this ep) and catching swords and doing stabbity things! And tracking! And not smacking Rodney when he wouldn't shut up, which, really now, does show considerable patience.

Rodney & Ronon running around together! And saving each other a bit, even if they didn't make a big deal about it! And lying on forest floors side by side!

John being OBVIOUSLY OUTRAGEOUSLY jealous of Rodney doing off-world volunteering on their his day off. They had a playdate and everything! And he goes off all pouting, too.

The not:

I don't dislike Keller, honestly. I quibble with how she's been written, but I still think Jewel Staite is adorable, even if her voice hits occasionally unpleasant pitches. And I was very glad to hear she's been practicing with Ronon, and has learned a bit since "Missing" (not surprised she's better than Rodney - she's younger and more fit, and besides has more motivation - training with Ronon? With the arms and the brilliant grin and all? Not something to pass up!)

I don't dislike her. But I'm just not that interested in her either; she's not quirky or funny or brilliant or ambitious enough to appeal to me, and I still don't understand what the heck she's doing on Atlantis to begin with. So I'm disappointed this ep didn't have 50% less Keller with Runner-2 & Little Orphan Annie, and 50% more of the Rodney & Ronon show, which I've been waiting for for long seasons. Some token Teyla wouldn't have hurt either - where's my team? She could've had a cameo with John. Or mention that she was also helping train Keller, at least.

On relationships:

I still don't like or want romance in my show. Fortunately I didn't really see much of that - so far Rodney/Keller is playing out like Rodney/Katie Brown, not a viable relationship; Rodney's trying to impress her, he's got "intentions", but he doesn't really know her. She's the girl he had a future with in one timeline (according to John - until proven otherwise, I'm assuming John told him about their hook-up in "The Last Man") and Rodney is so convinced that he's a failure at relationships that he clings to any possibility of one. It's kind of sad that he believes he doesn't have a chance unless he makes himself a "kinder, gentler Rodney McKay" and memorizes medical trivia--he courts like a high schooler, and maybe it's supposed to be cute or funny or whatever, but it makes me feel sorry for him, that he doesn't believe he's worthy of love the way he is. Especially when he clearly thinks he's going to lose to Ronon anyway. But I don't want him to 'win', not like this, not by being pathetic. I don't want Keller to go out with him because she feels sorry for the needy man who confessed his love when brain damaged.

...I miss Rodney/Sam. Rodney was a lot of things with Carter, many of them bad, but 'pathetically needy' wasn't one of them.

Ronon's final grin, though? That was totally, "Okay, you really need to get laid, obviously, so I'm gonna go kick Sheppard's ass until he gets on that, while I go sweep Jennifer off her feet."

--Yeah, I'm still on the Ronon/Keller train. Even if Keller doesn't do much for me, it will give us more Ronon - never a bad thing - and it will show us a different side of Ronon - even better! So I'm pleased they didn't rule that out by any means.

And meanwhile, Jennifer herself - when she was talking about that mean guy who's really not, who was she talking about, anyway?

The best part of the ep - the previews for next week, which someone kindly included on this rip. Allow me to be the first to say W00T!!!

Comments

[sp23.livejournal.com]

I agree with you, like, lots. I like Keller just fine, except when she's messing with my OTP. We got rid of Katie Brown, and now the writers bring in Keller and try to make a romance between her and Rodney, and it's just not necessary. I would have enjoyed this episode so much more if it had just been Ronon and Rodney escaping the Wraith or whatever and no Keller/Runner2.0/Little Orphan Annie. So, while there was lots of squee on my flist for this episode, I'm just kind of blah about it. :-(

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

It's not just that she's messing with my OTP, it's also my distaste for romance period (even slash I like better as subtext more often than not, however pretty boy-kissing it!). And then, the 'style' of romance they're playing McKeller - fumbling awkward high school flirting - bores me out of my mind to the point of resentment. I much prefer more mature relationships where the partners admit how they feel and work it out from there.

But no, the messing with my OTP doesn't help one bit.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Well, with Rodney, they're always going to portray any romantic relationship he has with him being a fumbling boob, because that's the way they see him. But since they already did that once with Katie, this is just a redux we really don't need.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I know, but the problem is that he's such a fumbling boob - who apparently didn't learn from the problems he had with Katie, which is frustrating in itself - is that at this point, I cannot picture him being able to handle a real relationship, however much he wants one. I think for Rodney, the only way he could have a real relationship is if he became friends with someone, real friends such that he got to know and understand them and they got to know him, before he went all hopeless. Which is what he has with John (yes, I'm biased here) but it's also what he could have had with Keller - there were several eps last season (even "Trio") that implied they were heading toward a friendship more than flirting, but they've discarded that almost entirely this season in favor of awkward mumbling and love confessions.

...Oh well. I'd rather he crashed & burned with Keller than married her anyway (if he got married, how lonely would John be?!)

[katikat.livejournal.com]

Ronon was so pulling Rodney's leg in that last scene. I mean, Ronon has more crush on John than on Jennifer, IMHO XP

I liked that Jennifer literally kicked ass this time but Rodney's puppy like behavior was cringe-worthy X(

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Heh - I could see it either way, Ronon having real feelings, or Ronon completely messing with Rodney's head. I prefer them to keep it undefined!

But, yeah, you know how I love Rodney, but puppy-crush!Rodney is one of my least favorite sides of the char...

[elandrialore.livejournal.com]

Hee! I forgot about the sword sharing:)

And meanwhile, Jennifer herself - when she was talking about that mean guy who's really not, who was she talking about, anyway?

I initially thought that she was talking about Rodney because they cut straight to Rodney talking, and we all know he's a cactus with a marshmallow center, but someone pointed out to me that she was probably talking about Ronon because she was comparing one Runner to another.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

It sounded more like Ronon to me, especially since Keller hasn't really seen much of Rodney's mean side...she hasn't really seen Ronon's mean side either, but she's seen him gruff, at least?

[calcitrix.livejournal.com]

I think it's weird that the writers are wasting so much valuable screen time with this thing. I know that the ep had already been written and filmed when they announced the cancellation, but even so, 'til now relationships have been mostly off screen or referenced while other, more important things were going on. Not that Keller being kidnapped wasn't a plot, but it was obviously done for the express purpose of the romance--not as a plot by itself with the romance thrown in as an extra (like in Duet, for example).

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Mallozzi actually said that this was going to be the season of romance (I can't recall the exact quote, but it had something about more than they've done before.) Which annoyed me from the first time I heard it, because I don't like romance, I like SG in part because it doesn't have romance, and because SG writers in general royally suck at writing romance.

That being said, the Keller-kidnapping plot could've been played more 'romantically' - since we didn't get much of the boys in general, most of what they did came across more as professional concern for a colleague than desperate need to save their princess; and Keller seemed more interested in the big strong guy she was helping than either of the people who might be coming after her.

[sholio]

I thought it was interesting how I came to this episode looking forward to finally, finally getting some one-on-one Rodney/Ronon interaction, and ended up loving the Keller parts and being pretty lukewarm on the Ronon/Rodney. I think it's official: that Jason Momoa interview has totally torpedoed my interest in watching the two of them together, because now I can't not see Ronon as someone who basically tolerates Rodney because Sheppard likes him, but doesn't think too much of him otherwise. Which is an interesting dynamic all on its own -- there aren't too many people on the show who can spend much time around Rodney without eventually liking him -- but ... not what I originally wanted from their relationship.

I really liked that the episode didn't come down on any particular side in the Ronon/Keller and Rodney/Keller thing, though. It really wasn't played as a soap-opera love triangle, with angsting and anger; actually, there's no particular indication from the episode that Keller is interested in either one of them as something other than a friend. (I do want some explanation as to what *happened* with Ronon and Keller, though, because there were several episodes where he was acting cute around her in early season 4, culminating in the almost-kiss, and then it just -- stopped. I don't need it at the front-and-center of an episode, but I really wish they'd had SOMETHING to explain it -- in my Rodney/Keller fic, I explained it as Ronon not quite being ready for a relationship after Melena, which is what makes the most sense to me, but canon's been worse than vague -- it's been utterly inconsistent.)

when she was talking about that mean guy who's really not, who was she talking about, anyway?

I definitely read that scene as referring to Ronon; the thought that it might be someone else hadn't occurred to me.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

I hadn't read the Momoa interview so I had to look it up. Was it the Gateworld interview from June? If so, then, yeah, in a way I can see what Jason was talking about. I think he likes Rodney okay as a teammate, but I think that Rodney probably likes him more than Ronon likes Rodney simply because Ronon really doesn't have any points of reference when it comes to Rodney. With Sheppard and Teyla, he has the warrior bond, but Rodney is not a warrior.

He did say that they have a "love/hate" relationship, so I think, in his own way, he kind of respects Rodney, he just isn't close to him.

The problem with Jason's interpretation of Ronon's character, though, makes Ronon look very one dimensional and makes him a much less interesting character to me. And, yeah, that cools me on the whole Ronon/Rodney friendship story I've been jonesing for. And this is exactly the reason I hate reading actor interviews. :-(

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

One thing here - the writers don't necessarily agree with Momoa's take:

“In a recent interview Jason Momoa refered to the fact that Ronon and McKay are not friends. I was just wondering is this something the writers planned or is it something which just happened over time?”

Answer: I’m sure Jason was simply referring to “friends” in the traditional sense. While Ronon and McKay aren’t exactly best buddies, that doesn’t mean there isn’t an unvoiced camaraderie and mutual respect there.

So I'm choosing to ignore than interview in favor of a more complicated reading of Ronon - so complicated even his own actor doesn't understand it! XP (Momoa also says he doesn't see the Keller/Ronon chemistry, so yup, I'm ignoring a lot...!)

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's kind of how I feel the character is actually portrayed. As I said above, I do think Ronon respects Rodney - after all, he fought like hell to give Rodney back one day of himself in The Shrine - he just isn't hanging-out-with-him close.

And as far as that goes, it's the same with Teyla. The few scenes we've had with just Rodney & Teyla have been Rodney trying to do something sweet for her or the baby, and doing it in such a clumsy Rodney way, that you gotta just love him that much more. However, Teyla always reacts with cool politeness, not warm amusement. At least that's how I've always seen it. I think she also respects him for his abilities more than likes him for who he is.

And this is why while others can do a beautiful job of writing the team as a cohesive, tight-knit whole, I seem to only have Ronon and Teyla as background characters or minor players in the story, because that's how I see them in the show with regards to the Sheppard/McKay relationship. There's the Sheppard/Ronon/Teyla group, and then there's McKay/Sheppard. But friendship-wise, unlike SG-1, which was a close cohesive group both off-world and on, Rodney is not included in that tight bonding of friendship that the other three enjoy.

And as for what JM said about Ronon's feelings for Keller, I think that was pretty stupid. Obviously the writers see him as being very attracted to her.

But, again, this is why I don't like to read interviews because I like to keep my own interpretation of the characters, and interviews by actors or writers too often clash with what I'm seeing on the screen.

[sholio]

There's the Sheppard/Ronon/Teyla group, and then there's McKay/Sheppard.

I think it's a little more complicated than that, actually. Sheppard's unquestionably the glue that holds the team together. He's got a unique bond with each one of them. Ronon and Teyla, as far as I can tell, went ahead and formed a friendship on their own, aside from simply being co-workers. Rodney, on the other hand, hasn't really gotten to know either of his teammates outside of work. They just don't have all that much in common -- it makes sense that he'd generally prefer to spend his off-duty time with people like Zelenka or Carson (or John) with whom he has some interests in common. And we know from "Last Man" that in Sheppard's absence, there was little team cohesion.

In my schmoopier moments, I generally think of their team-bond as akin to what soldiers or firefighters or other people in intense, life-threatening occupations share with others in their platoon or squad or whatever -- an intense loyalty and willingness to back each other up, despite the fact that many of them might not be all that fond of each other as individuals. I think there's some support for that in canon -- even the teammates who don't get along all that well are willing to rally to the support of one of them in trouble (Ronon and Teyla in "Shrine", Rodney in "Sateda"), but it doesn't really translate to liking each other as people.

(Random side note: I kinda agree with what you said about how Jason comes across in interviews. I love that Jason's invested in his character, but I'm not sure that I like the way that Jason sees his character, and himself -- he comes across as a pretty one-dimensional guy!)

[sp23.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree that the Sheppard/Ronon/Teyla bond actually translates to the three of them together as one unit and as individual pairings, mix and match, with only Sheppard and Rodney together as friends beyond the team. And, of course, the team is a unit that works to save each other and to protect those around them.

I just really wish there was a tighter bond outside the team like SG-1 had. You'd never see Rodney & Ronon, for instance, going out together to watch jello wrestling. *g*

But, since my main focus for both the show and my writing is Rodney, that's why, while I like Teyla and Ronon okay, I'm don't "love" them. On the other hand, with the original SG-1, while I adored Jack, I loved the rest of the team too as a group and as individuals.

[sholio]

It really depends on what season of SG1 you're talking about! Watching S10 of SG1 along with S3 of SGA, I remember getting the exact opposite impression -- the SG1 team struck me as having a looser, more co-worker-ish sort of vibe, while the SGA team had a tighter, family-type bond. I think the SG1 bunch had that in the beginning, but as time went on they drifted apart and the individual relationships became more important than the team bond, especially after Daniel's death/resurrection and Jack's departure. So -- there's the downside to all the members of the team having individual relationships with each other, because it weakens the bond they all share.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

I should have been more specific when I was talking about SG-1. I meant the original group - Jack, Sam, Teal'c & Daniel. Quite frankly, I never warmed up to Cameron (or to Jonas in S6), and while I liked Vala, I never really felt she was a member of the group no matter what the writers tried to tell me. To me, the original four are the real SG-1.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Awww, that's sad about the Rodney-Ronon - I didn't get much of what I wanted between them in this ep, but I didn't see anything to counter my reading of them as friends. I never actually read the Momoa interview, and only heard about it when Mallozzi outright denied his interpretation, so it's not biasing me that much. And I can't see Ronon as not liking Rodney, not after "The Shrine" and his pained "I owe him" and holding Jeannie...maybe they're not best friends, but there's a bond there more than tolerance. Ronon's terrible about showing his feelings, but he rushes to save Rodney, and then does put up with Rodney's constant rambling because he knows that's how Rodney handles stress...

--In that respect it's maybe good that the episode didn't focus on them, because then maybe it would've given enough to make it clear Ronon really doesn't like him. As it was, with this little I can interpret it how I like (though there were several people on my flist disappointed with the lack of teammanship, so you weren't alone there...) And hey, John & Rodney barely came across as tolerating each other for much of the first couple seasons, and look at where that is now...

I'm torn whether I want more on Keller's feelings. On the one hand, it leaves it open for interpretation - and also makes it make more sense, because if Keller really was interested in one or the other of them, there's absolutely no reason not to pursue it. In SG-1, Sam/Jack at least had reasonable impediments to starting a relationship, but there's nothing holding either McKay/Keller or Ronon/Keller to UST and it'll just make me crankier if they keep it in a holding pattern solely for drama.

On the other hand, Keller being seemingly neutral about them makes her come across a bit like a prize to be won, "may the best man win" - while her own feelings don't matter. For all they've given her a lot of screentime, they really haven't given her much development; I still don't understand what goes on in her head, what motivates her (in relationships or anything else.) Which is a consistent problem with most SG female chars, but it still bugs me.

[sholio]

Well, I've been thinking this through today, and like I said in the above comment, I see the team bond as one that transcends actual liking for each other as individuals. Actually, in a way it makes it a little more special, because they'll rally to the defense of one of their own who's hurt or lost even if they wouldn't choose that person for a friend outside the team. I think it gives them more of a family vibe than if they actually all got along and liked each other!

... yes, there may be a bit of rationalization there, but if you take four very different people and throw them all together, it makes sense that not all of them would get along or turn out to be BFF material. One of the things I really like about SGA as opposed to SG1 is the SGA team's prickliness and bickering; it hardly makes sense for me to turn around and complain about it! XD


I still don't understand what goes on in her head, what motivates her (in relationships or anything else.) Which is a consistent problem with most SG female chars, but it still bugs me.

But ... is that just a problem with Keller? Or even just with the women? It wasn't until season 3/4 that I started to get a good handle on John's inner life and motivations; looking back on it now, my early John seems flat-out OOC to me, because I really didn't have a good idea of who he was. I think the only character out of the whole cast who's been fairly transparent from day one is Rodney, but that has to do with his personality and the way that he wears his heart on his sleeve like he does. And we're still getting new insight into him; I think it's only been this season (after seeing similar patterns repeated between his "courting" of Katie and Keller) that I've started to nail down the basics of how Rodney relates to a romantic/sexual situation.

I think it's a side effect of rarely seeing the characters outside their jobs, and, even in action-oriented situations, rarely seeing them pushed into a space where they really have to make important, emotionally-telling decisions. That's why I feel like I finally understand Teyla, after five seasons; everything with the baby and Kanaan, and especially the S5 episode where she had to reconcile her family with her job, finally made her come clear to me, in a way that four seasons of alien-chasing hadn't.

It's really a problem that's endemic to shows that are focused on the characters' work-lives rather than their emotional lives. It's a trade-off; the shows that deal with the characters' emotions tend to be very soap-operatic and often use romance as a way of revealing their personalities, but you do get a much better handle on who they are. The job-focused and action-focused shows (IMHO) leave fans much more space to read between the lines; it can take several seasons to build up a good picture of who the character is, because all you have to work with are little glimpses. (After five seasons of NCIS, I'm *still* having a lot of trouble getting a handle on who the characters are and what motivates them.)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I go back and forth on the team thing - I can see the appeal and interest of a team with a professional bond that transcends the personal. As you say, the family nature of the team, people who are so intensely connected that it's more like blood-bonds than friends, inescapable; they love each other but they don't like each other much.

On the other hand, I love all the teammates, and love seeing them together, so I kind of want them to all love each other, and love being together. So sometimes I prefer an OT4 absolute love and affection reading, even if you have to squint to see it. And I'd like to see closer bonds between Rodney and Ronon, and Rodney and Teyla. It's probably not what the show intends; it's just what makes me happy to see. (And one reason I love John/Rodney particularly is because they *do* like as well as love each other - even more than everyone in SG-1, they seem to just enjoy spending time together.)

But ... is that just a problem with Keller? Or even just with the women? It wasn't until season 3/4 that I started to get a good handle on John's inner life and motivations;

This is a really good point!

Two arguments - one, I didn't especially like anyone except for Rodney until the later seasons! I didn't dislike them, but I was pretty neutral about them - passing fond and entertained by their quirks (and I think the male chars of SG have more quirks, so are easier to get superficially fond of), but not that invested. And I am neutral about Keller; I don't actually dislike her except in the context of the pairing, which I don't like because I don't like what it does to Rodney's character. But in the absence of a specific liking of Keller, my feelings about the pairing color how I see her overall. If that makes sense? If they'd hooked up Teyla and John earlier, I'd probably have really disliked Teyla; now even if they did pair them off, I'd dislike the pairing, but I'd still like Teyla, because I've come to know and love her in her own right.

It's really a problem that's endemic to shows that are focused on the characters' work-lives rather than their emotional lives.

This is the other problem - because s4-5 have had more of the characters' personal lives than previous seasons. In fact, Keller's stories especially have concentrated more on her emotional life than her work life (which bugs me as well; all "her" eps last season focused on her inexperience and lack of confidence, rather than establishing her skills as a doctor.) We've seen more personal moments with Keller than we ever got of any of the team in earlier seasons, but I'm still having trouble understanding her. The personal touches are weirdly meaningless, contextless - we know she has a father she loves, but not why she left him to come to Atlantis; we know she was a prodigy who went to school early, but not why she went into medicine. She seems to like Rodney's woobie vulnerable side, but not enough to ask him out more than once; and we don't know why Rodney "loves" her, other than that she's cute and flirted with him a couple times.

That's my biggest problem with Keller - by pairing her with Rodney, we're expected to care about her, and care about them getting together. But they haven't given me enough of a chance to get to know her otherwise, so my main understanding of Keller is "love interest for Rodney" - and being opposed to that pairing, it makes me negative about the char. Which is unfair to her, I agree, but I can't turn it off.

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

Aww... I was kind of, sort of hoping this ep might bring you over to the dark side. ;) But hey, at least we got an episode that depended on Jennifer being a doctor! :D

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeeeeah, sorry...if I'm going to like Keller, she's going to be have to given more purpose (I still don't understand what she wants - in relationships or anything else - or why she came to Atlantis to begin with!) And the McKay/Keller I'm likely never going to like if it keeps playing out like this; much as I love Rodney, his awkward immature puppy-crushes are one of my least favorite sides of the char. When he behaves like this, I can't see him as anywhere near ready for a real relationship, however badly he wants one. Which is really just sad, to me...

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

...if I'm going to like Keller, she's going to be have to given more purpose (I still don't understand what she wants - in relationships or anything else - or why she came to Atlantis to begin with!)

See, that's where I was hoping. :) Because I thought this episode showed a lot of Jennifer's purpose. She's on Atlantis to be a doctor, and she goes off-world because people around Pegasus need doctors, and she's learning how to defend herself because that's something you need off-world. (A fact which, awesomely in my opinion, we saw her learn.)

I don't know if we're given a stated purpose for Jennifer deciding to join the Atlantis crew in the first place. (To work with the best in her field? To work specifically with Carson? Maybe just to boldly go? We saw some of her boldness in this ep. *g*) But I think that basically, Jennifer likes people and she likes to help them.

...his awkward immature puppy-crushes are one of my least favorite sides of the char.

I was actually impressed with that final scene (Rodney talking to Ronon), because I thought it was a mature and healthy move, in that it was honest and clear and purposeful. Rodney's actively trying to develop this relationship, if Jennifer is interested. (As is Ronon, which finally. *g*) That's what kept it from sliding into soap, for me.

Of course, YMMV. :D

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I don't know if we're given a stated purpose for Jennifer deciding to join the Atlantis crew in the first place.

Which is my biggest problem, to be honest. Because if she were incredibly talented at medicine - or at science, or if she even had the gene - then I could understand why she ended up there. But from what we've seen, she's not - she's good at medicine, but she's not brilliant (at least not by scifi standards - obviously by normal standards she's incredible, but the rules are different on SG!) Atlantis is supposed to be an incredibly competitive place (see Carson going through applications in "Intruder") but Keller ended up as head of medicine without even wanting the job (according to "First Strike") and it's yet to explain why. And it bothers me. "Liking people and liking to help them" is great and all, and if she were a junior doctor on a medical show I'd like her just fine - but as a major char on Atlantis in a position of authority, I need to see more ambition before I can understand what she's doing there.

Of the other chars, John's the only other one without much ambition - and his presence is totally explained; he was shanghaied into coming thanks to his gene, and then thrust into an unexpected position of authority thanks to his rank, and he couldn't get out of it because they had no connection to Earth. Keller's story seems similar - thrust into an unwilling position without enough experience - but it's never explained why she was put there to begin with, or why the IOA let her stay, or why she decided to stay.

I thought it was a mature and healthy move, in that it was honest and clear and purposeful.

But it's honest and purposeful to the wrong person - just go to KELLER and state your intentions! Is she interested or not?

(I'll admit that some of this is not liking to see Rodney like this, but some of it is that I hate the early flirting stages of romance. They bore me to tears, in TV or in real life (...really, I don't like that stage even when I'm experiencing it personally); I'd rather they just hooked up. I'd honestly be happier with Rodney/Keller if the next episode they woke up in bed together; one reason I didn't overly mind Rodney/Katie Brown is because we didn't see much of it, and didn't have to endure the getting together. So the possibility of a shy, drawn-out "wooing" makes me want to beat my head against a wall ^^;)

[sholio]

Hopefully I don't seem overly prickly here, but ... after this episode, I really do wonder if it's possible for Keller to redeem herself in your eyes! Especially after this episode, I'm honestly baffled as to why you don't see her as being particularly talented at medicine. She seems to be more of a surgeon than a researcher (unlike Carson, who was the opposite) but so far, she's done brilliantly at every medical task that she's had to do. In this episode, with the defibrillator, she improvised just as you'd commented that you wished she would have in Shrine. She's basically another Janet Fraser, as far as I can see, and I'm not sure why she has to be more than that in order to be good enough for the Atlantis program. (Out of curiosity, did you dislike Fraser for being an average doctor and unambitious? She was in an even more pivotal position than Keller's, as the main doctor for the SGC, but I never sensed that she'd clawed her way over the top of hundreds of candidates to get that position...)

The thing is, I definitely believe you're entitled to your opinion, and I don't mean to be trying to argue you out of it, but some of the reasons that you give don't add up for me. I understand that it's totally possible to dislike or be indifferent to a character for gut-level, irrational reasons (my liking of Carson in early seasons gave way to dislike later, and I can't really stand him now, with no rationality to it at all) but I feel like you're trying to paint her as incompetent to justify what is basically an emotional reaction to her character, and (as someone who likes the character) that bothers me. Some of the reasons that you've given make perfect sense to me (that she's not as fun/quirky as the male characters; that she's been used as a love interest for Rodney; that she's really too young for the job she's in). But where I kinda hit a wall is on the whole competency/ambition thing -- and I don't mean to keep hammering at it, but ... is she really that much less convincing as a member of the Atlantis expedition than, say, Heightmeyer or Katie Brown or Chuck? I just don't get that from her.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I really do wonder if it's possible for Keller to redeem herself in your eyes!

I don't know if it is possible, really, because the McKeller stuff has given me a (somewhat irrational) dislike of the char that's hard to overcome (it's akin to you and Rose in Doctor Who; some of your objections I thought were reasonable, but others I believe were you interpreting the char in a biased light). I agree that in "Tracker" she showed a lot of initiative - I did like her in Tracker, except the pairing stuff (but that wasn't her, that was the boys; so I was more just annoyed about what she was doing to the boys than herself. If that makes sense.)

Is she really that much less convincing as a member of the Atlantis expedition than, say, Heightmeyer or Katie Brown or Chuck?

But that's my whole point. I don't think she's that much less convincing (though yes, I think she is less convincing - Katie Brown loved plants, it was easy to tell that was why she came to Atlantis; Heightmeyer at least was older, with more experience; Chuck is in a position of less responsibility.) But the difference is that we are never expected to care about Heightmeyer, or Katie Brown, or Chuck, the way we are expected to care about Keller. None of them ever got a single scene that wasn't with one of the main cast. While as Keller gets a lot of independent scenes; we're expected to empathize with her as a major character, not as a supporting character.

I liked Fraser fine in SG-1, but she was never a major character either - and if we'd gotten episodes devoted to her, and then she'd been randomly paired up with Daniel, and we got a lot of awkward Daniel trying to win her affections? I probably wouldn't have liked Frasier much either.

[sholio]

(it's akin to you and Rose in Doctor Who; some of your objections I thought were reasonable, but others I believe were you interpreting the char in a biased light)

bwahaha, excellent point. XD I actually thought of that while I was writing the above comment, and almost brought up Rose in the comment itself, but it was starting to run a bit long ...

I think ultimately, it just comes down to: you (generic "you") either like a character or you don't, and you either like a show or you don't, and the more that you try to justify it, the less logical sense it makes. XD I haven't got a clue why I like SGA as much as I do; I can certainly come up with reasons, but there are other, possibly better shows that meet all of my criteria. It's like asking, "Why did you fall in love with this person?" It doesn't really work to try to map it onto a logical framework.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Heh - there's a fair bit of evidence in psychology that all decisions humans make are emotional in nature, and we come up with logical justifications after the fact. There's a case of a patient with brain damage such that he was completely emotionally disconnected - his IQ was normal but he wasn't self-sufficient, because he routinely made terrible decisions, or else was incapable of deciding anything. (I read about this case in a couple places, here's a brief account I just googled up.) We're not nearly as rational animals as we'd like to think.

Though I do think it's interesting to analyze why we have emotional reactions to begin with, because I think there often are consistent reasons. Even if it doesn't help change our opinions!

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

You and friendshipper discussed the way a character can hit or miss in an emotional way just beautifully in the below thread (well, I think it'll be the "above" thread if this post hits where I think it will...). I do know for myself Jennifer fulfilled so exactly what I'd seen as missing in female characters in SGA (and I think often in the action/adventure genre in general) that I was kind of preconditioned to love her.

In connection, I also feel like I've got this solid understanding of her, so the things you see as missing (reason and purpose) I see as so obviously there. (For me, it's all about her wanting to fulfill needs. We know she stepped in as head of medicine because she saw a need, so I'm betting she was recruited to Atlantis.) To me it all follows organically and logically with the sort of person she is. But I can also see that I "see" Jennifer so clearly (in my opinion! *g*) because I'm emotionally attracted to her as a character. I'm willing and eager to make leaping connections regarding her backstory from the smallest of canon information.

(In contrast, raiining's suggestion of a possible Cadman/Rodney hook-up made me a tiny bit ill. And that's an emotional thing, too. To me, Cadman will forever be the "mean girl" who stripped Rodney naked and then mocked him. Her character so emotionally repulsed me I pretty much see the darkest of motivations for all her actions. But I know a lot (if not most?) of fandom sees the character in an entirely different way, so I suspect they interpret her canon quite differently from me. *g*)

I'll admit that some of this is not liking to see Rodney like this, but some of it is that I hate the early flirting stages of romance.

Ah! Another taste difference! :D I adore the early stages of romance (as long as it's not artificially drawn out), and so see something very sweet in the interactions between Jennifer and Rodney, and Jennifer and Ronon. (I actually do see sexual chemistry within both couples, though I agree it's hard to beat Rodney/Sam for sheer hotness. *g*)

But it's honest and purposeful to the wrong person - just go to KELLER and state your intentions! Is she interested or not?

If Rodney didn't give a crap about Ronon, yeah, that's what he should have done. But I think talking to Ronon first was the better course of action. It's the best way to make sure their mutual interest doesn't create a wedge in the team, IMO. I strongly suspect Rodney was planning to make his intentions known to Jennifer on this outing, but then there was Ronon. ;) Which is actually moving with good speed on Rodney's part I think. (The way I see it, Ronon is the slow horse in this particular race. I'm actually glad Rodney got involved, otherwise the wooing would have been painfully slow and drawn out.)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think especially with a show like SGA, the character development tends to be erratic and sometimes contradictory. So we all invent our own "stories" for the chars, motivations and whatnot, and then all the new canon we get, we include what fits our version and excludes what doesn't. (Such as the person who saw Rodney only as a shallow, boring asshole in that post of yours.) The Keller you are watching is not the Keller I am watching; neither of us are wrong, we're just seeing different things.

As I'd admitted elsewhere, too, as far as my liking went, they shot themselves in the foot when they decided to make her primary relationships romantic in nature. I am atypically antipathical to romance (not just in SGA; it tends to be my least favorite part of any show or story - you have to trick me into liking canon pairings, more often than not). And I watch shows for (nonromantic) relationships even more than characters. If Keller's primary relationship was her friendship with Teyla, or a platonic relationship with John or something (it wouldn't have to be friendship; antagonistic relationships interest me too) and the Rodney-Ronon thing was just a side element, then I'd like the character more. But right now she's setting off my "female character developed for the sake of romance" alarm bells, and I can't hear the character over them otherwise. ("Tracker" frustrated me, because if they'd removed the romantic element, I might've come out of it liking Keller more. But ending with Rodney & Ronon like that just served to remind me that in the mind of the writers, the most interesting part of her character is who she's going to date.)

[raiining.livejournal.com]

Huh - good point with the Rodney/Sam thing. They had a lot more chemistry than Rodney has had with any other girl we've seen, except perhaps Cadman - who I miss.

Ronon needs to convince John to start his Super Secret Seduction Plan pronto. I feel the need for a moment to imagine John and Ronon drunk one night on Satedan wine and reminiscing, and then John confessing his adoring Love of Rodney (in a completely John-way, of course - which mostly means drunken innuendo and shrugs).

:D

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

One of my problems with Rodney/Keller, which I also had with Rodney/Katie Brown, is that there is zero sexual chemistry between them. Rodney/Katie Brown were weirdly averse even to touching; the only kiss was when Cadman was in control, and was totally camp besides. And with the McKeller, their kiss in "The Last Man," while sweet, was terribly chaste. (To the point that I wonder if David and Jewel feel a bit awkward playing a physical connection, perhaps because of the age difference? I know DH can do sexual chemistry - Rodney and Sam obviously, but he's got sparks in other things I've seen him in. When kissing men, too! XD)

It kind of annoys me, because (and I admit I might be oversensitive here, but) I think the writers have a difficult time conceiving of Rodney as at all sexually desirable. They're fine with John hooking up, but Rodney's sex life is purely theoretical and a matter of cheap jokes; they can imagine Keller liking Rodney's vulnerable woobie side, but they can't imagine her (or any woman) being physically attracted to him. In spite of the vast evidence to the contrary out here in the real world!

(I'd be more offended, except the writers seem to have trouble writing sexual chemistry at all. Sheppard's hook-ups are all weird and I don't think that's entirely JFlan's fault; Ronon they avoid the issue entirely; Teyla managed to get pregnant entirely off-screen. But now they're trying to write 'romance' and it's bizarrely separate from sexual desire; it's like they're all living in a Rogers & Hammerstein musical.)

[valoryhope.livejournal.com]

And meanwhile, Jennifer herself - when she was talking about that mean guy who's really not, who was she talking about, anyway?

I was sure it was Rodney. 'Cause Ronan is gruff, but I don't think we've ever seen him be "mean", while Rodney's fellow scientists/subordinates probably do think he's mean! But Jennifer didn't say it with any hint of indulgent fondness, which I'd think she would if she had romantic feelings for him; plus, whenever she spoke to him this ep, she seemed kinda cold to him (maybe, after his declaration of love in Shrine, she's trying to discourage him?). I sure don't see any chemistry between them. But, of course, it's useless trying to make inferences from on-screen subtleties, as the writers are so arbitrary and inconsistent in their portrayal of characters & relationships.

It's kind of sad that he believes he doesn't have a chance unless he makes himself a "kinder, gentler Rodney McKay"

After Trio, I actually thought Jennifer liked Rodney in all his Rodneyness, but, just like Katie, she apparently prefers the "kinder, gentler" version (she was thrilled when he was smooth and suave in Shrine). So the hell with her--if she can't appreciate him, she doesn't deserve him. (Especially when there are so many of us who would be glad to make him feel appreciated, just as he is!)

Rodney is so convinced that he's a failure at relationships that he clings to any possibility of one.

Here's my take on Rodney & romance (and forgive me if I get a little wordy here; I'll totally understand if you skip down to the next post!):

I see Rodney as a bisexual who tends to repress/deny his gay side. In Season 1, Rodney had something of a crush on John. However, by the end of The Siege, he'd come to the conclusion that (a) Sheppard really was Kirk (i.e., a completely heterosexual Casanova), and (b) John was probably going to die on one of his kamikaze missions. In other words, Sheppard would never be interested in him sexually/romantically, and even if he did, a relationship with him could only end in heartbreak. And Rodney, although passionate (no matter what his piano teacher said), is a scientist, who accepts what he believes to be facts, however little he likes them. So he put away his feelings for John and settled for friendship.

Now, we know that Rodney’s parents had an unhappy marriage, so I suspect he got most of his ideas of successful relationships from books and movies, thus giving him an idealized picture of love. He’s afraid of growing old alone, or of dying in the Pegasus galaxy before he has a chance to have a family (and of course he owes it to the world to pass on his genes!), so he looks for the type of partner he thinks he SHOULD have (Carter, Katie, and Keller...an alliterative group, aren’t they?), and convinces himself that he’s in love.

How much of this is conscious and how much is subconscious, I don’t know. But Rodney, for all his genius, isn’t very bright when it comes to human interactions. I doubt he understands, or is even aware of, most of his own feelings and motivations. He knows he loves John, but, since it doesn’t fit his paradigm of romance, he pigeonholes it as platonic friendship (the way a friend loves another friend).

John, on the other hand, is in love and knows it. (Could his jealousy have been any more plain in this ep?!) And we can only hope that, someday, he smacks Rodney upside the head (figuratively speaking) and gets his attention in a new way. Or maybe John will have one near-death experience too many and Rodney will find himself reacting in a way that he can no longer delude himself into viewing as platonic.

And they’ll live happily ever after.

(Again, my apologies for being so long-winded, and my thanks for providing me with a forum. It's your fault for always making my brain so thinky! And for making me feel that obsession is a GOOD thing.)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

(Never apologize for long comments! Have you seen the length of my rants & comments? I am long-winded as anything, I love long responses because it gives me the excuse to give long ones back! XD)

I was sure it was Rodney.

*laughs* Looking at the responses to this, it seems 40% of people were sure it was Rodney, 40% were just as certain she meant Ronon, and the other 20% were confused like me. She hasn't really seen much of Rodney's "mean" side - he called her a genius the first time they worked together, and has never insulted medicine around her that I recall, unlike as he did with Carson. While as Ronon she's seen be gruff, anyway? Ah, I don't know!

she apparently prefers the "kinder, gentler" version

Yeah, and that bugs me...I mean, woobie!Rodney's cute and all, but arrogant-super-confident!Rodney is hot! But the writers seem really disturbed by the idea that Rodney could be sexually desirable. (Actually they seem disturbed by anyone being sexual desirable - even Teyla got pregnant off-screen - which is odd; but Rodney especially they play any hint of sexual attraction solely for laughs.)

As for your reading on Rodney - hee! While I don't see your reading as exactly canon (because I don't think the show creators intend any gay to get into their scifi action. Except maybe Martin Gero and Andy Mikita, who I'm really wondering about...) - your whole take pretty much jives with my own "fanon" version of the chars.

I see Rodney as a bisexual who tends to repress/deny his gay side.

I agree with this (fanonically anyway). I also think Rodney's got a pretty low sex drive - he likes it but it's not a priority for him; and that if he's not actually a virgin, then he's fairly sexually inexperienced with either sex. Probably because he went to college young and never got properly socialized, so he doesn't really know how relationships work. Friendships as well as romantic, really.

he looks for the type of partner he thinks he SHOULD have (Carter, Katie, and Keller...an alliterative group, aren’t they?), and convinces himself that he’s in love.

Carter I think is a little different, because I think Rodney genuinely is very attracted to her, she's physically his type and the brains seals the deal. But Katie and Keller both, yes - I don't see him as being especially attracted to, but since they have shown interest in him and he's desperate for affection and relationships, he convinces himself he returns it. (It makes me feel sorry for Katie and Keller, because Rodney doesn't seem to love them so much as love the idea of being in love; he doesn't really know or care about them for themselves. It's an unhealthy basis for a relationship.)

And John, yeah, John seems to know how he feels - I don't know when exactly he figured it out (sometime around the end of s3/beginning of s4 - "Tao" maybe?) but he's so obviously jealous I almost do see his feelings as canonical! Now he just has to do something about it - get to that, John!

Long, long, loooong post

[valoryhope.livejournal.com]

OMG, I just saw the length of that post. I really did go on and on...and on...I'm sorry to take up so much space!!!

But you probably took one look and skipped it anyway...

(is red-faced with embarrassment)

[patk.livejournal.com]

>>so far Rodney/Keller is playing out like Rodney/Katie Brown, not a viable relationship; Rodney's trying to impress her, he's got "intentions", but he doesn't really know her.<<

Pretty much my impression too. As soon as he started to talk about a newer, gentler Rodney McKay I was convinced that this could not lead to anything successful, at least not long-term. Trying to change your character in such a fundamental, basic way - not because *you* want it but because you think that's what another person wants - just doesn't work in the long run.

But John? Totally jealous and pining. Even the way the scene was shot: John appearing in Rodney's mirror saying "Hey". That's practically an exclamation-mark regarding the camera work in this scene. "Attention please, this is something important and noteworthy. Interpret as you want.".

Not to mention that the scene itself had no other purpose than to show us John's reaction to Rodney's plan. Every information that was given to the audience via their dialog could have been given via Ronon or Keller in the scene after this one. There was no need for John to show up at all, let alone to show up in *such* a way. *G*

They're pushing McKay/Keller while giving us pining John at the same time. I can't help but like that somehow. *G*

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Trying to change your character in such a fundamental, basic way - not because *you* want it but because you think that's what another person wants - just doesn't work in the long run.

Yes, yes, exactly. Changing yourself because you're unhappy with who you are, that's one thing. But changing yourself for a specific person, because you're trying to meet their specifications - that's just destined for disaster. Rodney failed with Katie Brown because he was scared of being himself around her; I thought he'd learned something, but it looks like not. Sigh.

They're pushing McKay/Keller while giving us pining John at the same time. I can't help but like that somehow.

Hah! - when I heard there might be McKeller, I said it'd be all right as long as John was jealous. And while I'm disappointed by how much Keller we're getting, with and without Rodney, when we could be getting other chars - whoo boy, John is jealous. Come on, boy, just tell him how you feel! Rodney doesn't need to change, you love him just the way he is (omg, John's pout when Rodney talked about the "kinder, gentler Rodney McKay"!)

[sheron]

friendshipper & yourself remind me of very very good friends :) Nice discussion upthread.

I wanted to ask someone who's obviously spent some time thinking about Keller/McKay dynamic. Have we ever seen Rodney touch her?

Voluntarily, not in the "she'll fall otherwise" or "gotta set her broken leg" kind of touching. Ever? I must be missing something but I swear I can't recall them ever having bodily contact. Perhaps this explains why I don't see much chemistry between them, even though I think personality-wise they are a good match.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

*laughs* Yeah, friendshipper and I have known each other for years, pre-SGA and lj - we fan in similar ways, and we both enjoy a good friendly debate, so even when our particular tastes diverge we don't have any trouble getting along.

Re: McKeller, no, I don't remember them touching, except for in the alternative timeline in "The Last Man", and even then it's unusual little. Though to be fair, Rodney doesn't really touch anyone casually; he's not a very physical person. And SGA in general is a bit weird about physical contact (I actually just posted about this, and how it screws up the believability of romance in the show.)