on death-fic

[xparrot]

So I accidentally-on-purpose read (well, skimmed) a MUNCLE death-fic today - well-written, clever, heart-wrenching. It wasn't angst-ridden; the opposite, really. (It was azdak's "Divided Halves" if you're curious.) And it broke me, as they usually do, and not in the good way, but in the makes-me-mopey and -flaily and -writing-essays-instead-of-my-sga_genficathon-story-which-is-due-Thursday way. I love black comedy, and death-badfic just cracks me up; it's the good ones that kill me and my fragile OTPer heart.

And I know they do this to me, and I should know better - it's not that I want to read them, I just can't help myself. For some reason when I see a major character death warning (or something that sounds like a death-fic; I've got an instinct for them) I can't help but click. And then I get broken and have to do my best to forget the fic exists, lest I re-shatter. And end up wishing the fic had never been written, so I don't see it recced everywhere and keep getting reminding of it ("Freedom's Just Another Word..." I'm looking at you!)

Which is ridiculous, of course, because plenty of fans love death-fic, or at least love some death-fic - it seems like folks get different things out of them. Some people enjoy that broken feeling - well, it is intense. And then, some people like moving-on stories, about characters recovering and life going on. The most popular death-fic seem to be those stories which hit both emotional chords - like "Freedom's...", which on the one hand is really more about Rodney's new life, about what he's got rather than what he's lost; but at the same time, what he had with John is irreplaceable. (Which is the only reason I could bear it at all. The way my MIPs* work, completely happily moving on after the loss of a MIP is more painful to me than if they both died...)

* MIP = Most Important Person, gnine and my new word for all those relationships we love that might or might not be "true" OTPs, in that they're not necessarily romantic, but the characters are each other's Number One. E.g. "They might or might not be lovers, but Napoleon and Illya are so totally mippish, no?"

But the truth is - I've never read a true, permanent, non-comedic death-fic I've actually liked. Appreciated, yes; admired, certainly, and if anyone questioned me about the literary merit of fanfic, "Freedom's..." would be one of the first things I'd offer as counter-evidence. But I don't like them; I don't usually save them, I don't want to reread them, and they're never my favorite stories. (This is in fanfic; original fiction is a different matter. What I want from fanfic is not what I want from other fiction.)

The ironic thing is that I love the presumed-dead trope; pseudo-death, where the dead one comes back somehow or other, is about my biggest bulletproof kink. (And I like a broad range of "pseudo" - death-fics where the MIP comes back and sticks around as a ghost? Yeah, all over that, no problem!) It's the ultimate device for showing how important characters are to one another - but it needs the satisfaction of the chars being able to do something with those realized feelings to work for me. This is especially ironic because I know some fans feel cheated by pseudo-death stories, and probably find my enjoyment of them as baffling as I find their enjoyment of death-fic...

The other irony is that I've written death-fic, including long-term ten-years-later death-fic for Psych, of all shows...and that story would probably have killed me reading it, but I just had fun writing it. Maybe because when I'm writing it, it's just an intriguing scenario to explore. A "what if," not "what really happens." Odd that I have so much more trouble reading fic in that light...



In other news, watched the Twilight movie with the MST3K fangirl squad of gnine, naye, and acchikocchi, and vaguely horrified myself by not hating it. Edward & Bella are as stalkerifically wrong a young love as Romeo & Juliet, but since they are teenagers (sort of) it doesn't bother me overly much, and oh! the emo! The director was so, hmm, sincere about the prettiness - so very shoujo, I could almost see the bubbles. And the sparkling was almost as hysterical as promised.

But the Cullen family was just so freakin' adorable I couldn't even laugh at them. A big happy vampire family! That plays baseball together! And cooks Italian! I've seen plenty of vampires trying to get on/stay on the wagon, but never a whole vampire family. Edward can actually depend on his vampire sire, and listens to him about the saving of his favorite hamburger true love...so much trust! Awww~!

Also saw the Who Easter Special. "I love you! I love you!" AHAHAHAH <333

Comments

[joonscribble.livejournal.com]

I tend to entertain the notion of writing death fic when I sort of enter the fandom for the first time. (I like to make an entrance.) but once I settle in, it seems wrong to kill a canon character, no matter how logical the step is to me. But I know that's just my own fangirl-ness screaming "No! No!" against logic and clinging on.

Also saw the Who Easter Special. "I love you! I love you!" AHAHAHAH <333

I loved the Welsh scientist. He was the best bit.

"You're my best friend too! You're my...he's gone..."

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I come up with death-fic scenarios quite a bit - "oh, I wonder what char X would do if something happened to Y?" - and I write them on occasion, but they don't bother me when I'm the one thinking them up. But for some reason reading them really just throws me for a loop. Especially if I'm hardcore fanning at the time - the more removed I am from a series, the better time I have dealing with it. I could read a SPN death-fic without blinking, but touch my current OTP/MIP and I wibble.

The Welsh scientist in Who was totally the best part! (I am also unreasonably proud that after my recent regiment of BritTV I can now recognize an incredibly heavy Welsh accent XP)

[trystings.livejournal.com]

I so get what you are saying about "Freedom...". That fic kept me up at night. I never read part 2, Rodney's loneliness was just too much for me.

But the Cullen family was just so freakin' adorable

*g* I was going to rec you Growing Up Cullen, but I see that oxymoronassoc friendslocked it. That's too bad - it's an IM exchange with some hysterically funny lines.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

The second part (and sequel) of "Freedom" is maybe less painful in some respects than the first, because it's more about Rodney moving on and healing, finding things to care about...but since moving on also hurts me, didn't help much! ^^;

Heh, I am not planning to read Twilight fic! Even parody! That way lies madness! (though if you do see the fic elsewhere...)

[trystings.livejournal.com]

but since moving on also hurts me, didn't help much!

That's what I'm afraid of, that I'm even more miserable after reading how Rodney finds the will to live. ;)

But (read your reply to Friendshipper), you're basically out of SGA now? That's sad to hear. I'm still heavily invested in my boys - And I dearly miss canon and the weekly squee. Can't wait for the genficathon to start.

On an upnote, I still have two seasons of SPN to catch up on and I finally got my grubby little hands on S1 of MUNCLE, so in a couple of weeks I should be able to comment on your fic again. Yay. :)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Welllll...I'm not totally out of SGA. But drifting, yeah. Sigh~! I wanted to stay longer, but I'm a fannish butterfly, I can't help myself. Actually, SGA is one of the longest fandoms I've ever been invested in this strongly - it's rare for me to stick around for even a whole year.

I'm not completely out of SGA, though - and me being me, there's a good chance of me drifting back to it, sooner or later...I pretty much never abandon a fandom; my OTPs (or OT4s!) are my OTPs forever. And I've got a couple WiP SGA stories I love and want to finish - and I'm going to have one in the gen ficathon, too, so you haven't seen the last of me!

--in other news, yay MUNCLE! I hope you enjoy Illya as much as I do ^___^

[wednesday-10-00.livejournal.com]

Actually, it's not locked, she just renamed the tag.

And yes, xparrot, you most definitely should read at least some of it (it's just a bunch of chatlogs, so you can read as much or as little as you like), because it's just hilariously funny.

[trystings.livejournal.com]

Heee, thank you!

Oh, and there's more. I've only read the first post - "MUST YOU PISTOL WHIP EVERYONE EMMETT? MUST YOU??" *G*

Thanks!
(also: icon ♥)

[wednesday-10-00.livejournal.com]

Glad to help! Access to Growing up Cullen is important stuff.

There's something about the image of the Cullens siting around playing video games that just cracks me up. XD

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Sankyuu for the link, tis much appreciated! :D

[winter-elf.livejournal.com]

yea, I'm a huge fan of 'presumed-dead trope' as well. I can read that all day - because I love the angst and yearning - and yet - happy-ish (hopefully) ending.

I have read death-fics usually because I'm curious (or I scroll to the end), but then yea, the powerful ones leave me crying and having to read fluffy, fluffy stories for WEEKS to get them out of my head. And I don't have a yearning to re-read them either. And we're not going to talk about the crying that went on when I read "Freedom..." *sniff*

I've been curious about Twilight. I think MST3K fangirly is the way to go. Gotta do that, so I'm not cringing but laughing at it.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I love "presumed dead" in fic, in books, in TV, in movies, anything - it's always been one of my favorite things. But with fic I tend to always read the end (unless it's an author I *really* trust) because I just don't want to run into a deathfic unaware.

Twilight is fun to MST3K, it's so ridiculously over the top...

[ariadne83]

I have the opposite problem to you - I can read deathfic, no problems, but writing it is bumming me out. I'm working on a story at the moment which expands on the canon death of a minor character in SGA, and the more I get inside his headspace the more I want to save him, even knowing that I can't :-(

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hmm, yes, I know other writers who talk about how they cry when writing things, but it's never been like that for me. I think it's because my canons, I can always "fix"...or something? Actually I'm not sure. I love writing angst, but don't enjoy reading it quite as much...

[raiining.livejournal.com]

I have a similar love/hate relationship with death-fic, but its the way I also feel about really angsty fic that takes me places I don't necessarily want to go.

I'm thinking Dearest (http://glitterati.talkoncorners.net/fiction/dearest.php) and Out of the West (http://glitterati.talkoncorners.net/fiction/outofwest.php) by Pru.

Utterly fantastic fic that nonetheless took me farther than I wanted. So achingly sincerely and yet unhappy. Out of the West *broke me*, even though the end is not nearly so bad as a death-fic.


Sky Full Of (http://glitterati.talkoncorners.net/fiction/skyfullof.php) is another one of her's that I love, but that one I can re-read again and again. I think its got a little more humour and the end is that much more hopeful, that it strikes hard but I can accept it again and again.

I've only re-read Freedom once, and not lately. Far too painful, but definately something that I liked, and maybe needed?, back when I started going through fanfic for this show around season 3. Something really serious and wonderful and - god - heartbreaking.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Ahhhh, when I say "death-fics" I really could just say "fics with unhappy endings" - I love my happy endings! And I've definitely read non-death-fic that break me just as much (Pru's being those I firmly avoided...) - though for some reason I usually am able to put aside the non-death ones faster; they don't haunt me the same way. But that could be because I haven't read as many of them (I have a bad habit of reading the ends of fic first, to avoid breakage...) And also my definition of "happy ending" can be quite broad...

Judging by the reception of the best death-fic, I'd say a lot of people need their hearts broken, now and again! I actually appreciate the feeling myself, but not with fanfic...I don't enjoy serious fanfic the same way I enjoy a serious book. Just in a different emotional space when I read it, I guess...with a book or a movie, I'm ready to be touched like that; with fic I think there's always a part of me resentful that my happy-fuzzy place is getting spoilt! XP

[sholio]

... hmm, and now this is making me want to try to explain what it is that I like about fic that's bleak or sad or doesn't end well. I don't want it all the time, but I find that it makes a lovely seasoning for my fannish experience -- too much sweetness is cloying, I guess, and it needs a taste of the bitter/tart to make the sweetness appreciated again. Or something like that. :D It's not really that I want my heart broken, and I like my fluff; it's just that I really don't want to read all fluff, all the time. I get tired of it; I need the balance of something that is darker and sharper-edged.

I think some of it comes down to the fact that I always appreciate a story that is subtle and nuanced, whatever the fandom. I love fic that's realistic and subtle and makes me think, whether it ends happily or not. Risking an unhappy ending is basically the price of reading the kind of fics that I love most -- the kind that are uncertain and a bit dark, where happy endings have to be hard-won if they can be won at all. (And, incidentally, I did love your Psych future-fic in just that way, and strangely, I didn't consider it particularly unhappy -- possibly because I really like moving-on fic, depending on how it's done, and I loved what you did to mature and deepen the characters in it.)

Paradoxically, I think I'm the reverse of you -- it's easier for me to handle character deaths or unhappy endings in fic than in canon. I enjoy exploring dark ficcish what-ifs because I still have the comfort of canon as a touchstone; I know that the character didn't really die and I can always have them back if I want them. Actually, there are times when I want to kill them off, or see them die, for the pure catharsis of it. Whereas if they die in canon, they're dead "for real" -- barring fix-its, of course XD -- and it hurts! There are still some fictional character deaths I haven't gotten over, and they hit me much harder than anything in fic (though "Freedom...", honestly, comes kinda close -- I think mostly because it's so incredibly well written; it's difficult to dismiss).

Having said all of that, I know exactly what you mean about the "flinging myself off a bridge" urge to click on a fic that I know I'm going to hate. There are a few authors like that (and no, I'm not going to name names XD); I know I don't like how they handle the characters or character relationships, but I still click on their stories with a train-wreck kind of fascination.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hmm, yes, I can understand what you mean about needing a sort of "palate cleanser" after too much fluff. It's not what I want in fic myself, but then, I don't like just fluff; I like pretty extreme angst, I just like happy endings. My favorite sorts of fics are those that put the characters through the wringer, but put them on the road to recovery at the end...(my definition of "happy ending" is broader than some, I think...!)

But then, there is something to not knowing how a story turns out; the possibility of death can add spice. It's why so many shows like to kill off characters, and it makes sense that it works like that in fanfic, too, that knowing there can be dark-fic makes the fluff all the more comforting? Or something...

Some of this I think is that I tend to read fanfic for fairly limited reasons - I think of fic as comfort-reading, usually; I don't go to it for any deep reasons. I get antsy when too much of the "real world" intrudes in my fannish safe space, and death-fic is a major intrusion. I don't read fic for really strong intense emotions, or for particular depth or meaning - there's been stories that I wished were original fic because for me, as fanfic, they weren't nearly as successful; they were too much for fanfic, for me, not what I was looking for, while the same story as original fic would really appeal (I'm thinking "Your Cowboy Days Are Over"...) (Now I'm thinking that I really should try reading fics like that in fandoms I'm *not* actively in. If I'm not fannishly engaged in that way, I could probably take a lot more, and there is some amazing literature in fanfiction. Wonder if there's any really good meaty SPN epics...?)

There are a few authors like that (and no, I'm not going to name names XD); I know I don't like how they handle the characters or character relationships, but I still click on their stories with a train-wreck kind of fascination.

Ahahah...Totally guilty of this myself. ^^;;;

[sholio]

Some of this I think is that I tend to read fanfic for fairly limited reasons - I think of fic as comfort-reading, usually; I don't go to it for any deep reasons.

*nods* I do understand this; I think the difference is that I don't really seem to look for different things from fanfic and original fiction (I used to think that I did, but the sheer quantity of good fic in the fandoms I've been reading lately has enabled me to quantify my fannish tastes much more precisely than I used to be able to, and I really don't think that's true anymore, if it ever was). So with me, it's more that I swing back and forth between wanting fluffy escapism and wanting deep brain-stroking fiction, regardless of whether I'm looking for it between the pages of a published book or in a fanfic archive.

... granted, fanfic and original fiction tend to break down along such lines that I generally get most of my "SRS LITERATURE" urge satisfied by original fiction, which then leaves me free to wander off to get my id petted by fanfic. ^_^ And my fan-squee is definitely prone to harshing, though I've noticed that it's much, much more fragile to meta-harshing than in-universe harshing, if that makes any sense -- that is, it's extremely difficult for a fic to harsh my squee, whereas meta harshes on it very easily by making me think about the aspects of the show or book that I really try not to think about in order to enjoy it. (Perhaps this would not be quite so much of an issue if I'd ever fan on anything that was actually good ... *weeps*) My fannish psyche is resilient enough to withstand a whole archive full of darkfic but a really critical meta-vid can crumple it like wet paper.

Heh, and see, I'm not really that crazy about heavy angst -- actually, I often feel cheated by a happy ending on a really angsty fic; I can deal with angst much better if it's treated as the precursor to some serious damage (to the characters' psyche or relationships) than if it's swept under the rug or miraculously fixed at the end. (I have been known to rail out loud at authors for pulling out the magic Ancient healing device in SGA fics -- the ironic thing is that for many readers, too much reality breaks the spell, but for me, too much unreality breaks the spell; offering an easy solution to a complex problem often takes away what *I* want from a fic, which is an exploration of that complexity.)

But then, there is something to not knowing how a story turns out; the possibility of death can add spice.

This. Yes. I love not knowing how something is going to turn out, and I really love authors who can throw my expectations and give me something that feels right and yet isn't so obvious that I could see it coming a mile away.

Having said that, there are always times when I like to indulge in comfort reading, and pick fic for precisely those qualities.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

(ahahah, my sister peeked at the comments on this post and said, "Okay, I know you want to write a huge long essay to L. now, but you'll have to wait until after we go out..." I think she's onto us! XPPP)

Yeah...I still go to fic for id-petting more than intellectual stimulation. Mainly because I usually read fic for my Type B fandoms, and those are all Id Central...my Type A's can be more intellectual, but then I'm less likely to seek fic for them. Hmm, wonder what's going on there, actually! Unconscious intellectual prejudice against derivative works, still? Or something else...huh.

I don't go for *super*-heavy angst...there's a definite line for me, but it's difficult to define where it is. There's some authors I eat their angst up, and others I can't enjoy at all...my envelopes can only be pushed in certain directions? It's confusing. And "miracle fixes"...hmm, yes, see, I can understand where you're coming from there. In fic I myself tend to prefer an unrealistic fix to no fix, but I prefer a *satisfying* happy ending - actually I personally feel that a truly satisfying happy ending is one of the hardest to write. I sometimes feel cheated by darkfic that doesn't bother trying to resolve anything - it's not that difficult to throw characters into hell. Getting them out of it, now that's the interesting part, to me...

(Perhaps this would not be quite so much of an issue if I'd ever fan on anything that was actually good ... *weeps*)

Heh, yeah, but that's the conundrum; I don't know if I *can* have a truly good Type B fandom. For me, anyway, I think I need to be able to criticize something to fic for it? It's almost like, I need to justify claiming the chars as my own, and the only way I can do it is if the canon is flawed. If it's too good, I don't feel like I have a right to claim it, somehow...

[sholio]

my sister peeked at the comments on this post and said, "Okay, I know you want to write a huge long essay to L. now, but you'll have to wait until after we go out..." I think she's onto us! XPPP

*laughs* Um, she knows us well, doesn't she ... ^^;;

It would really be interesting to sit down and analyze my own fic-reading preferences, because I do think that either it's changed over the last few years, or it never really *was* what I thought it was. I think one of the things that's made a big difference for me lately is getting to know other fans and so getting an idea of where I stack up relative to the rest of fandom. I always used to believe that I read for total self-indulgence until meeting people who actually do; I used to think that I was a die-hard h/c fan(atic) until meeting people who actually were. I always thought of myself as a gen fan but looking back on my early fic, most of what I wrote and a lot of what I read wouldn't have qualified as "gen" by SGA standards.

I'm well and truly into uncharted territory on my SGA fanning because I've just never fanned on anything this long before; the closest thing are those fandoms that I drift into and out of on a regular basis (like Star Trek: TOS, or, apparently, SG1). The amount of fic I've written has been in steady decline since my first year in the fandom, and while it's true that I'm not as inspired to write as I used to be, I've also been throwing a lot of time and effort into writing original fic, leaving me much less time to work on fannish stuff. I really want to write another long SGA fic right now -- the main idea that I have right now is an AU of season 5 that goes off into AU territory at the mid-season 2-parter, but I keep balking at getting into it.

In a way, becoming so much more analytical about my fanning, and so much more aware of what the rest of fandom is doing, has killed a lot of the sheer pleasure of writing in this fandom. I just don't think I've ever stayed in a fandom long enough for this to happen to me before, let alone being particularly aware of what other people in the fandom were doing or how they felt about the overall fannish patterns. I never though too hard about why I was writing my early SGA stories, or how they fit into the big picture of the fandom. Now I can't really stop thinking about it -- I keep thinking things like "Oh, I can't write that, too predictable"; "I can't write that, too much John and Rodney" (I've felt massively guilty about fanning on John and Rodney ever since sometime last year); "I can't write that, too much like a story I've already done"; "can't write that, I should turn it into an original story instead". The end result is that I think about writing a lot, but I don't actually accomplish anything ...

(And I shouldn't be distracting you from writing your genficathon story! The deadline is coming up! *pushes you at word processor*)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Ah...that's always a sign to me that I'm about to drift out of a fandom, when I start thinking more about how a story will be received than the story itself. When I'm wondering what the comments will be, rather than the next scene; when I want to write something more because I think I *should* write it for some reason or another (even if it's a reason as petty as "I'd like to get more comments!") rather than because it's a story I desperately want to read, or that I don't want to read but won't stop writing itself in my head...that's when I know I've lost "it." Whatever "it" is, it's what I need for my stories to work, for them to satisfy me. (it's also what happens to my WiP, and why I've now made a firm rule not to post until the story is complete - because when I'm posting a WiP to an audience, I often reach a point that I start worrying too much about what the audience will think of the end..."they love it now, but what if they hate where it's going?" and that just kills a story, for me...)

If it's not too weird...in what way do you feel guilty about liking John-Rodney? Is it the white N. American guys saving the universe thing, or the dominance in the fandom, or the McKeller backlash, or something else, or a combination? Or would you rather not think about it, in which case I withdraw the question. I've never felt guilty about what I like fannishly, but I can imagine how incredibly harshing it would be...

[sholio]

Is it the white N. American guys saving the universe thing, or the dominance in the fandom

A combination of these two, basically. (And no, I don't mind you asking. :D) I know it's silly to feel so guilty about it; it's not like anyone is treating me poorly because of it or doing anything to make me feel bad -- it's just that the more aware I become of the show's skeeviness and the way that those two characters were elevated by both the show and the fandom to downplay the others, the more uncomfortable I feel about fanning on them (kinda similar to how I really, really don't want to fan on Gene Hunt even though I'm drawn to his relationship with Sam).

At the very least, I don't want to write anything with them anymore that doesn't address the problems that I have with them. This does not really lend itself to fun, escapist, happymaking fic, though. :D Unfortunately the other character relationships on the show don't appeal to me in quite that way; I really like all of the characters, but I'm still looking to find some kind of fannish lynchpin relationship on the show that doesn't include John and Rodney.

when I want to write something more because I think I *should* write it for some reason or another (even if it's a reason as petty as "I'd like to get more comments!") rather than because it's a story I desperately want to read, or that I don't want to read but won't stop writing itself in my head...that's when I know I've lost "it."

hmm, that's not exactly what's happening to me; it's more that I've just become hyper-analytical and hyper-critical of what I write -- it's an issue with my original fic, too, and I think it's probably why I haven't managed to finish any long original projects since early last year. I'm not really sure what to do about it; I'd like to recapture the feeling of writing for the sheer joy of it, but I can't seem to do it, in either fanfic or original fic. I start out okay, and then I start analyzing it to death and it becomes a joyless slog ...

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...have you tried fanning on one of the more intellectual-type shows? Something like Sarah Connor Chronicles, where the engagement is less emotional, more analytical? I'm just wondering if in your current headspace you might find something like that a better fannish fit...(Not that SCC doesn't have its flaws, but they're different flaws than SGA...) The analytical mindset doesn't coexist comfortably with squee, but maybe right now you need analysis more than squee...if you can work through that, you might get back to squee? Or else discover the squee of analysis...

I've been in similar places before, the hyper-critical moods are not fun and terribly unproductive. With me it's usually a new fandom that knocks them aside...maybe you could try something similar with original fic, find something new? Have you tried writing anything totally different - non-scifi, non-genre? Personal/autobiographical, maybe, or romance, or whatever? You might stumble across something that excites your writerly side that you didn't even guess at...(no idea, I'm just throwing out suggestions. Self-criticism is useful to an extent, but it sucks when it starts to block you and your pleasure in writing...)

[sholio]

Sadly, it's not possible to choose something to fan on or not; they choose me...! I have been reading a lot more than watching TV lately, though, and I think it does have something to do with that. I want to engage with books rather than TV shows. And I'm writing a lot more original fic. I miss the emotional high that comes from flat-out fanning, but I don't really seem to be inclined in that direction right now.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Well, as long as you are writing, that's okay! I'd like to be doing more original stuff myself...right now I'm under a lot of stress what with leaving Japan next month (and having to job hunt in America is not a pleasant prospect!) so I'm letting myself retreat into fic, but I really would like to get back to my own stuff sometime...

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Paradoxically, I think I'm the reverse of you -- it's easier for me to handle character deaths or unhappy endings in fic than in canon.

Hmm! I don't know if this is the reverse, or not - it depends on my engagement with a canon. If I'm Type-B fan-engaged, then canon death of one of my favorites will *break* me - I often enough will have to enter Denial if I'm ever going to be able to enjoy the series or fandom again (What is this Serenity of which you speak?) Heck, for that matter Richie was my least favorite lead on Highlander, but I'm still in Clan Denial because otherwise most of the show just wouldn't be fun for me.

But other series/canons I'm much more accepting. My brother hated the char deaths in the Locke Lamora series, while I'm not overly bothered by them - they affect me emotionally, but not enough to damage my enjoyment of the series (...as long as Jean lives. XPPP) And there's some tragic musicals and things that I just love...

[sholio]

I'm constantly having to revise my own assessment of my fanning style as new evidence comes to light. *g* Every canon really is different for me, and the way that I react to canon, and to changes in canon, is highly variable. My interest waxes and wanes, and I drift from one fannish touchstone to another. SG-1 is really a great example of that, because I was positively obsessed with Jack and Daniel in the first couple of seasons, to the point where I was thisclose to being one of those hyper-annoying "There is TEAM in my OTP!" fangirls (... okay, maybe not that bad, but I used to get annoyed at episodes like "Solitudes" or "Message in a Bottle" because I wanted all Jack-and-Daniel onscreen all the time -- I resented having it pointed out that Jack had other important people in his life besides Daniel). But I drifted out of love with the show, and by the time Daniel died, it didn't really bother me all that much -- I wasn't happy about it, and I stopped watching in season six partly because of the lack of Daniel, but knowing about Daniel's return was not enough to get me to watch the show again. However, when I started watching again in early season ten, it was really a totally different thing for me -- I was all over Teal'c and Vala, and loved the team vibe, and wasn't nearly as focused on a particular character or relationship to the exclusion of all else.

If Daniel had been killed in season two, his death would have snapped my fangirl heart like a twig. Daniel's death in season five hurt, but I actually was more annoyed with the viciousness of Daniel fangirls towards TPTB for killing him off than I was annoyed with them for killing him! His death was still the final nail in the coffin of my love of the show, but by the time that season ten rolled around, I think they could have killed Daniel again for reals without really bothering me all that much -- actually, I really didn't mind the episodes in S10 where he was evil, because it was really interesting to see how the team dynamic worked in his absence.

I think I've kinda drifted into a similar place with SGA. John and Rodney are still my focus in fanfic and for the show, but I was actually musing the other day that, had the series continued, I think the most interesting thing they could have done for the show's sake was to kill off Rodney ...! I know it sounds awful, but I really think they've explored the character about as far as they can without turning him into a self-parody or "reforming" him to the point where he's unrecognizable. It was interesting to realize that I'm actually more interested in seeing what happens to the team dynamic in his absence than I am in seeing the further adventures of John and Rodney onscreen ... while I know that Rodney's death in season three would have turned me into a gibbering puddle.

I have sometimes waffled over the fact that, while it is almost always a particular character relationship that pulls me into a fandom, I don't really seem to OTP them in a permanent kind of way. I might for a while, but then I get interested in seeing what else can be done with them, separately or in combination with other people. It really has something to do with whether I can get a good supply of my happy-place OTP fic for them, enough to sate me and make me think, "Hmm, what else is out there?" When I think about the major platonic "OTPs" that I've drifted away from while still being more or less into the show -- that is, the waning of my interest in the character relationship hasn't kept pace with the decline of my interest in the show -- they're basically the ones where both the show and the fic provided an abundant supply of character development, h/c, angsting and interaction for them: Jack/Daniel, Sam/Dean, John/Rodney to a somewhat lesser extent. The ones that have held my fascination are the ones that haven't really been explored -- maybe canon gave a lot to work with, but there wasn't any fic (Alfred/Haplo, Vinnie/Frank, Manji/Rin), or canon only gave tantalizing hints and I could never find much fic either (Ranma/Ryoga, Lister/Rimmer...).

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Ahhh - what's interesting here is that I tend to work similarly, except that when I lose interest in an OTP, that pretty much always means I've lost interest in the series/fandom. I keep my OTPs, usually (actually I don't know if there's any exceptions to that? Once I OTP, I'm awfully, umm, consistent...) But I only stay "active" with an OTP - reading/writing/watching - for a limited time. After I've moved on to a new fandom, I'll remember my previous OTPs happily, and will still enjoy them in canon, but I only rarely will return to actively "shipping" them. But I don't want them broken up; I'd rather the canon remain how I remember it.

Case in point, I'm basically out of SGA now (shhh, don't tell anyone ^^;) - I'm still reading a bit of fic, but not really much, and I'm not writing it anymore (save for my gen ficathon thing, and that doesn't really have a John-Rodney focus at all...) At the same time, I still can't take John-Rodney breakage...actually, having moved on, I think I'm even more sensitive; the only SGA fic I'd really want is fluffy super-happy-ending, because I wouldn't want to have to mentally "fix" it in my head, I'd just want to enjoy it. And my enjoyment pattern is pretty much fixed in the final place I left it, the TEAM+OTP setting...if that makes any sense? If they killed Rodney...it wouldn't bother me now like it would've before, but I wouldn't like it; it's possible I'd have kept watching, but I probably wouldn't fan on it. It would be a different show for me. And I'd have to full-on deny Rodney's death if ever I wanted to enjoy any fics I'd read or written before. (This is why I tend to prefer shows to end, rather than change too drastically; I like my old safe places to remain intact. After s5 SGA, I'm actually happy the show ended when it did; I think there's more that could be done with it, but not with those writers...)

The major exception to this is Type A fandoms - except it's not really an exception, because I don't tend to have OTPs in Type A. I'll have relationship I particularly like, but they won't be my absolute favorite part of the series, so they won't be a make-or-break issue. (In fact, in Type A fandoms I sometimes will be anti-OTP; I won't want to see any relationship placed above any other. The only OTP-type preferences I get in Type A fandoms will be canon relationships...)

(What is Manji/Rin from? It's the only pair I don't recognize!)

[sholio]

What is Manji/Rin from?

"Blade of the Immortal". One of the character relationship "types" that really does it to me is master/student of different genders -- I used to think it was just older guy/teenage girl (like Manji/Rin or Harry/Molly) but then I realized that Rukia/Ichigo in Bleach hits the kink just the same ... and is one of the reasons why the idea of Rukia/Ichigo as a pairing gets a big NOOOOOO!!!! from me, because it's very specifically a platonic kink. *g*

Case in point, I'm basically out of SGA now (shhh, don't tell anyone ^^;)

Awwww~! But I know you tend to wander on; I didn't expect you'd stick around very long. (Still. It was nice while it lasted!)

I'm actually very surprised that I'm still in SGA fandom. I'm not into it to the same extent that I was in the beginning, but I'm still very much in the fandom. I think it has a lot to do with the fact that it's not the characters specifically, it's the universe, and even though my interest in the characters has changed quite a bit from how it was in the beginning, I still have a lot of stories to tell in this setting, and a lot of interest in telling them.

I've really had to reassess my fan-self over the last few years, because a lot of what I'd thought was true of me as a fan is turning out not to be true of me in SGA fandom. It's possible that I've just changed, and rather than always running off to fall in love with new shiny things, I'd rather settle down and be fannishly monogamous for a while.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

...Actually there might be an exception to my OTP rule, depending on how SPN works out - because for all I love Sam/Dean, in the show these days I'm more interested in Dean/Castiel, I think. Or maybe just Castiel, period. (mmmm, angel-kink...) Though I never really was "active" in OTPing Sam/Dean, never ficced...if I had, I suspect I would've abandoned the show for the sake of the OTP. (Maybe that's another reason I fan on lower-quality canons - because then I can abandon them without trouble, if they go places I don't want to follow, rather than wanting to know what happens, even if it's killing me...)

Ahh, fanning is such an emotionally complex activity!

[sholio]

Hee, I think I'm the only fangirl on the planet who doesn't really like Castiel. ^^;; I did in the very first episode that introduced him, but I think the fan reaction to him has actually pushed me away from him very strongly; I am contrary that way. XD

I want to think more on my reactions to various canons -- I know that I am much less likely to fan heavily on something that's really good all by itself, sort of my own version of your type A and B fandoms -- there just isn't much that I want to do to it. But this also includes shows that deliver what I would normally look for in fic; I think that's why I never really fanned on SPN very hard, even in the early seasons when it was delivering what I wanted. In just the first season, the show handed me pretty much everything I would have wanted from fic; my interest in it slid into a decline in part because there wasn't really anywhere else it could go, and there wasn't much that fic could give me that the show didn't already.

(The office worker AU episode -- hee! -- revitalized my interest in the show in a way that I haven't felt since the first season, and I think the big reason why is because it made it all fresh and new again -- we got to see Sam and Dean negotiating a whole different kind of relationship, where they didn't know the rules and didn't really know each other either. I've been vaguely tempted to write something for it ever since that episode, and I haven't felt that way about SPN in a long time ...!)

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

I can really, really enjoy a good death-fic, but I don't often re-read them. Because, while there's a certain enjoyment in a good sob-fest (depending on my mood *g*), it's not anything I'd label a comfort fic. And it's comfort fic that I tend to re-read.

I'm trying to think of actual books that end with a main character's death that I love and re-read... I can't, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything (I'll probably think of something in the middle of the night *g*). Though I can think of a few books that I've very much enjoyed where main characters die (I won't name them because that would be spoiling), I don't recall re-reading them.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Well, when I was a teen I lo~ved The Phantom of the Opera (musical and novel) and reread Eric's death scene about a gazillion times. Thinking back, I'm not sure what it was that got to me, but I know I adored that emotional impact. (And Eric was my favorite character, but I wasn't mentally 'fixing' his death; I was very happy to imagine Christine & Raoul going off together and Eric dying broken-hearted...there was something perfectly romantic about it to me, and I don't even like romance! Of course I did mentally write sequels about Eric's ghost and Christine's granddaughter, but Eric never got the granddaughter, either, she had her own true love...poor tragic Eric, I liked him so that way!)

Hmmm, I haven't reread Phantom since high school; wonder how I'd feel about the novel now...