on Avengers, redux

[xparrot]

Just saw it again - if anything it's better a second time! (also we just went out for shawarma for dinner and it was delicious, so thank you for the rec, Tony Stark!)

Everyone's parts are just so well balanced, I think if any of them are your favorites that you'd be satisfied - the less-heavy hitters like Natasha and Clint get other things to do just as crucial to saving the day as laying the smackdown (Hawkeye maybe a little less than the others, especially in the final fight he *cough* gets the shaft - but still he's pretty crucial.)(And awesome.)(Wait everyone is awesome.)

Natasha is so amazing, love how she's the only one to really get one over on Loki (not that Loki actually gets one over on anyone else who's not Thor, he is such a pathetic excuse for a trickster, poor thing...) And in the final battle, that she's the one who goes, 'uh, yeah, fighting the aliens is important and all but you know, guys, we really need to shut that portal - eh, never mind, I'll do it myself.' And I love how she spends so much time looking like she's thinking oh god, Natasha, why are you doing this, have you gone nuts? - but she goes ahead and does it anyway, because who else is going to? OH but I want her movie...and OH but I hope they don't screw it up (and that it has Hawkeye in it *fingers crossed*)(also, at the end when Loki is gagged, Natasha leans over and whispers something to Clint that makes him smile, ahhh want to know what she said!)

I also really love Bruce Banner, this viewing even moreso. I'd seen the last Hulk movie but Ed Norton, while I'm partial to him, doesn't haven't the right feel at all - he can do unassuming but he's not sweet, not the way Mark Ruffalo is. Not that he wouldn't hurt a fly because he doesn't dare to, but that he really doesn't want to hurt a poor fly - that contrast is crucial for the Hulk to work. (And his deadpan, "Oh, that's much worse" when the SHIELD airship takes off, ahahahahah.)

Also Nick Fury is made of so much awesome and win that I might explode from it - "But given that it's a stupid-ass decision..."

--And I love Tony and Thor too, so so so much - and Steve too even though I'd think I wouldn't, but he is just such true-blue hero type.

So yeah - I am just going to stick with Loki as my favorite because that way I DO NOT HAVE TO CHOOSE between Avengers.

Speaking of Loki - TOP SECRET for tomomichi's eyes only, everyone else can move along, nothing to see here...


(for anyone who does read on, for the record I think Loki's a spiteful little shit with amazing bad hair who gets what's coming to him; this does not in the slightest stop me from loving him. (and it's a great credit to the movie that I can love the villain without it reflecting at all badly on the heroes - if only, Smallville...) The following is not trying to absolve him but rather a simple exercise in reading counter to canon. Also I want these fics SO BADLY.)

1) Okay, following up on this fascinating theory (eta: another essay I just found covers pretty much everything I said here), Thanos gives Loki the scepter in the first scene, and then Loki turns up and steals the tesseract from SHIELD and as pointed out, he looks like he's completely strung out for unclear reasons, and "burdened with glorious purpose" (plus by his expressions this is the first time he's really cut loose with the scepter, and he's enjoying the power high, but it seems like it's taxing; less so the more he uses it). Later he's asking Selvig and Clint, "What did the tesseract show you?" - there's more a feeling of camaraderie than domination - like a cultist asking a fellow member when did they see the light. And for all his talk of ruling, Loki is not the one giving orders to Clint; rather it's Hawkeye who tells Loki to make the distraction and get the eye to steal the iridium.

Thor asks Loki on the cliff, "Who showed you this power?" - does Thor have an idea what the tesseract can do, brainwashing-wise? Thor thinks Loki is being controlled, and maybe it's just that he is way too naive about his brother; but maybe he's onto something?

Maybe it's an act on Loki's part - comics!Loki would play that game, would be playing Thanos to get hold of his power and use it for his own ends. But movie!Loki doesn't seem that devious. In his grab for power he might have bitten off more than he could chew, and ended up getting caught in Thanos's trap, under his control - possibly without even being aware of it, arrogantly assuming his godhood would protect him from the scepter's influence? (Loki's eyes don't go creepy-blue like the others - though neither do anyone's on the airship when the scepter is pulling off its One-Ring-esque dissent-sowing trick...) Judging by the way it controls Selvig and Clint, the scepter doesn't completely overwrite your personality, but rather realigns your goals to be in its (Thanos's) interests, and amps up the parts of your personality that best serve those goals - Loki's jealousy and malice and chaotic impulses toward destruction.

Then, when the Hulk smashes him (and yes that scene is still amazing and yes I want this as a poster)(also lol dumb~) - "cognitive recalibration", Natasha called it with Clint; and something happens to Loki, because he's left on his own for a while and yeah, he got the wind knocked out of him but still, that he doesn't set up any escape, no teleporting, no illusions - and his "I'll take that drink now" is totally different from any line before. Graceful in defeat? That doesn't seem Loki's style (though I do love how classic old-skool supervillain it is; the heroes win and the villain goes quietly, ~until next time!~) Maybe Loki's just relieved - better off in the Avengers/Thor's hands than in Thanos's, since he failed to deliver the tesseract? Or back in his own mind for the first time in a while...?

(Also when he and Thor teleport back to Asgard in the end, Loki is cuffed and gagged, but he still grabs onto the tesseract without any obvious threat; either he's cowed or willing to go.)

2) It'd be possible to put together a totally cracked theory that Nick Fury is actually conspiring with Loki the whole time to get the Avengers to team up. I still think it's likely that Fury totally faked Coulson's death, but a lot of the other events could've been set up, too, especially with the help of a trickster illusionist...

Comments

[e313.livejournal.com]

now that's one theory that never crossed my mind but going through the movie after having read your view...oh f***! this could b right! this could b soooo right! (and the next Avengers movie could b Thanos and his army vs. the Avengers AND Loki :) or, u know, i just hope someone writes the fanfic :D

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah, really curious if Thanos is going to come back (in the next Avengers or the next Thor!) and what happens with Loki if he does - meanwhile yes, want fic~!

[moonriddler-mim.livejournal.com]

this was really interesting, why you go telling me this stuff?! now I have Ideas. damnit.

and also, I'll be looking at the movie a whole 'nother way next time I see it. ach. ;oP

Loki is my fav in the whole movie too! and Natasha! girlpower FTW!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

It does make for interesting viewing! And yeah - picking favorites is hard, but Loki and Natasha are both tremendously entertaining...

[lukita.livejournal.com]

Watched The Avengers today without really watching the other movies first, well, just the first half of Thor. Doooood ♥ Thor was all, come home Loki. T_T Was it really terrible of me to think a gagged Loki was hot?

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Thor just can't give up on Loki no matter what he does. AWWWW now that's a proper hero!

...if it was you're not alone in your terribleness?

[sholio]

I'd actually forgotten until you posted this - there is just SO MUCH about the movie to remember, and I've only seen it once - but I totally had gotten the impression when I was watching it that Loki was being, if not outright controlled, then at least manipulated. I alternated between the theories that Loki totally THINKS he's in control but isn't, or Loki actually knows he's not in control, is furious/scared out of his mind about it, and is going ahead with his plan in the hopes that he can gain enough power/leverage to break free. Since this was not really addressed at the end - at least not directly - I kind of forgot about it, but it was my prevailing theory while I was watching it.

Actually one thing I find really interesting about Loki as the villain in this movie is that he's not really that threatening, and for a lot of the movie he isn't even the main (physical) threat. He's not physically powerful, especially not compared to the Avengers - in a head-to-head fight, he could probably be defeated by just one or two of them, let alone all of them. That's kind of unusual in a superhero movie, and I think it was a really good move on Joss's part to have a physical threat that wasn't Loki, and thus keep Loki out of the actual fighting for the most part. Because in a fight between Loki and almost any of the supercharged, physically powerful Avengers, Loki's going to come off as the underdog, and that's not what you want at all. On the other hand, Joss didn't go the obvious route of having the physically underpowered bad guy team up with the good guys against the greater threat - Loki stays the villain to the end, which I also thought was a good move (while still leaving the possibility open that some future movie might team them up if circumstances dictated).

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah, when I first saw it - well, I wasn't watching for plot at all! but as I like my supervillains super-scheming and manipulative I was thinking that Loki was allying with the Chitauri but using them for his own ends, like they were using him. But watching it again with this theory in mind, it makes sense that he's not really in control, even though the movie leaves it unresolved - actually there's enough narrative hooks for it that they have to be intentional; I'm just trying to figure out if the story got changed partway through, or if they're planning to raise it in another movie?

Good point about Loki's threat potential as a villain! In some ways he is posed as the secondary villain...more like the henchman/spokesman of the big bad? More Gollum or Wormtongue than Sauron or Saruman. And yeah, avoiding the underdog was a good idea - the Hulk-smash is hilarious but not long enough to make you feel sorry for him. It's a delicate balance to make a villain somewhat sympathetic but still make his trouncing satisfying, and Joss pulled it off (I suppose not so surprising; he did invent Spike among others...)

I don't have spoilers for later movies (I know Loki is in Thor 2 but not the main villain, but that's it?) but by Loki's record so far, he's on track to semi-reform and die in a dramatic self-sacrifice in a later movie (which I would have few problem with, considering how that worked out for him in the comics! ...as long as it came late enough that I got at least a couple more movies of him XD)

[cesperanza.livejournal.com]

*applauds Redemptionista Loki reading*

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

If you want a truly brilliant counter-interpretation, check this out. =D

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

"Just saw it again - if anything it's better a second time!"

ITA. I saw it for the third time on Sunday, and I still saw new things that I missed the first couple of times. :-)

The Avengers is more complex than it seems on a first viewing. Yes it's total fun, and not at all dark and depressing, but it's not a stupid movie. Not by a long shot.

"Natasha is so amazing..."

She is. And I'm so tired of people saying she's just there as booty. Really?! I wouldn't want to be the one to say that to her face! And not one of the guys in SHIELD makes such a suggestion. Even Loki doesn't go THAT far when he attacks her verbally. I love her scenes with Clint. Their closeness is that of comrades, with total respect between them. :-)

I love that idea that Loki may have been controlled, too. Damn! I never thought of that! But it makes sense, especially considering the scene where the Hulk bashes him around, and then Loki wakes up and he is quite different. Why didn't I notice that?! :-)))

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

People say Natasha is only there as booty? D: That makes me sad for people! She's so awesome (I enjoyed her more the second time, when I didn't have to be tense the whole film waiting for it to screw her up...)

And Loki being controlled - I don't know if I would've realized it myself if it hadn't been pointed out, and then once you see it, it seems so obvious! Especially him 'waking up' at the end; he's only got the one line, but he's like a different person. Really want to know what they're doing there, because I think it's at least somewhat intentional...

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

"People say Natasha is only there as booty?"

I have come across that opinion, in various forms, a number of times. Mostly as comments on reviews, and not in actual reviews, thank goodness. I think it's just sexism, and based on the fact that she's so attractive, and of course beautiful women can't possibly be powerful and amazing. It all makes me tired.

I had total faith that Joss wouldn't screw it up, but I understand your concern. It's so typical of Hollywood superhero movies to have a woman be strong at the beginning, and then conk out and have to be rescued by the end. But I knew Joss wouldn't do that. :-)

I kept having weird feelings about those scenes with Loki, especially on the third viewing, but my suspicions kept getting buried by my amazement at all the action sequences and how hilarious Tony is. So damned clever of Joss, damn him.

I loved that 'counter-interpretation' essay you recommended. But I like the theory that Loki is controlled by Thanos, but keeps trying to break free, because he does realize he's making a bad bargain. That's why his actions as a 'conquering hero' make no sense. I think I'm going with that story until it's proven false. :-)

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I totally agree with you about the other Avengers, too. This was the greatest version of the Hulk/Bruce Banner ever. And the greatest build-up to the appearance of the Hulk ever. :-)

[josephina-x.livejournal.com]

I *lol* at your tumblr's.

And I agree on your theories :) (esp. since his eyes did seem a bit more blue than usual; they're supposed to be green, right?)

The thing where he practically defers to Hawkeye on the eyeball -- wow, that one totally slipped by me, but you're right! Not to mention asking about the tesseract. Hoo. Gonna have to rethink some of these bits a little more :)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

...eheheheh oh Tumblr. On lj I try to maintain a certain sense of, ummm...not maturity, but perhaps intellect? But Tumblr wipes that right off the slate...

I don't know if I would've realized Loki being influenced myself, had it not been pointed out to me - and yeah, it's one of those things that once you see it, it's hard to see it another way. And Loki's eyes being more blue than usual - I actually noticed that myself, but then was wondering if I was just projecting; but I saw someone else noting that especially early in the film the lightning and makeup emphasizes the paleness of his eyes, so, yeah...another hint, maybe?