xparrot: Chopper reading (books)
[personal profile] xparrot
Finished it tonight! Overall, definitely enjoyed it, am wanting more. Jessica Jones is better, but Daredevil maybe hits my fannish buttons harder...?

Enough that I might go looking for fic, though am unsure of whether I'll find anything like what I want...as my favorite things about the show is the trio, but I don't really ship any combination of them - Foggy/Karen is the only ship I can see, and even then, I've decided my favorite pairing for Karen is actually shipping her with Malcolm from JJ - they would be so supportive and adorable and just, awww!

Foggy and Matt, I like their friendship as a friendship, want to see more of it, but also really badly want Matt to actually apologize. Which he didn't have to do because Matt is terrible and Foggy is way too nice and cares about him too much to let him go, but at the end it feels like they've put a band-aid over a wound not yet healed. Though they're both guys and they have one of those guy-friendships that means that talking about things seriously is very difficult and they're both content to leave a lot of stuff unspoken. So Matt telling Karen that it was all his fault almost counts as an apology, and hopefully Karen can convey how broken up he was, but yeah, Foggy deserves better...

(...which comes down to me wanting Bad Things to happen to Foggy in s2 and/or fanfic. I'm so sorry, Foggy. It's all Matt's fault. If he would just tell you what you mean to him...)

(At least they have Karen, who balances them so perfectly - like, Matt falling apart in front of Karen and finally getting that hug he so badly needed, he just couldn't have done that with Foggy, that's not the way their friendship works. But I hope Karen told Foggy all of it and then they can talk about it obliquely in their way later...)

Meanwhile, speaking of talking, Karen needs to find out about Matt! At least there's some balance as right now Karen has secrets from them (on top of what she did to Wesley - !!!!! - there's her past which Ben Ulrich alluded to, and then with Wesley she had that line about not her first time shooting someone, and in her dream of Fisk he was talking about how it gets easier to kill???). I wasn't expecting the reveal to happen this season, no time, plus Matt doesn't actually know how to tell people his secret...so far the only method he's got is dropping three-quarters-dead at their feet. --Which, given his habits, is likely how Karen will find out as well. But I'm hoping it might be more honest than that. Will see next season!

Also am hoping Claire will be back - would like to see her and Foggy talking (am really curious how their first meeting went - I'm glad we didn't see it, that they kept the focus of that ep on Foggy and Matt, but I want to know...)

Plotwise, I did like how the show switched things up - there were a number of predictable elements, but some of them used that very predictability to go unexpected places. Like, Karen getting kidnapped but not damseled. And Wesley being the one fridged instead of Vanessa.

I spent the whole show trying to figure out what the deal was with Fisk, what the story was trying to do with him, but I didn't get it until I read [livejournal.com profile] sholio's comment here that the show is also Kingpin's origin story - that Fisk isn't actually a supervillain but is becoming a supervillain, just as Matt is becoming a superhero. Which makes a lot more sense, because otherwise it's a weird story - Fisk is the big bad but he spends pretty much the whole show losing, he's in damage control with a crumbling criminal empire from the first ep. But it's Fisk's crucible as much as Matt's. Which doesn't make him that much more interesting to me, I still found his parts the least compelling in the show; but it's an improvement.

--Also, Sholio, you are totally right on the totally shallow bit, maybe I'll get used to Matt's new costume but I preferred his original look. Not sure about the helmet and the new costume doesn't cling to his torso in quite as appealing a way. (And doesn't look so much like he's cosplaying the Dread Pirate Roberts. I spent the whole show expecting a Princess Bride joke...unless Wesley was it?)

Date: 2015-12-15 06:44 pm (UTC)
sholio: sun on winter trees (Default)
From: [personal profile] sholio
Jessica Jones is better, but Daredevil maybe hits my fannish buttons harder...?

Yes, this for me as well! Of course, I saw them in the reverse order, but I think JJ is much better TV, much tighter and more compelling overall. When I watched DD, I was often doing something else for part of the episodes -- usually the fighting parts -- and was kind of bored through the first few episodes; JJ was the one that was compelling from the beginning. But JJ really didn't hit me in a "want to read/write fanfic" kind of way. I'm not sure why, because the women's friendship in particular had all my happy buttons -- I think maybe it's partly that the show was so dark, and partly that I actually GOT all the wonderful sacrificy stuff that I wanted from the actual canon (canon itself is satisfying for me), whereas DD ended in a way that made me want ALL THE FIXITS FOREVER ...

... because, YES, they left everyone starting to patch things up, but still broken, with Matt and Foggy still slightly estranged, and Karen still not knowing his secret! I feel a lot better about it now than I did right after the show's end because of knowing there will be a season two, so I'm hoping that all the things we didn't get in the last couple of episodes will happen in season two. They break things too close to the end to repair it properly, but repairing it over the course of a season would be lovely. (And h/c for Foggy, YES PLZ. The one time he was actually in the hospital in the show, Matt wasn't around! Although we did get some lovely stuff with Karen, and what I assume was a deliberate thematic parallel with Matt lifting his coat to find blood in the first episode(s), and Foggy doing a very similar move in the hospital -- they are ALL heroes, just in their own way ...)

Fic ... are you interested in it?

I have written a little for the show so far, but not the Foggy h/c epic of my heart ... not yet anyway. XD My fics are here. I would love to see what YOU might do on the general theme of Foggy h/c ... JUST SAYING. :D I don't really have much fic bookmarked in the fandom, but after I'd first watched the show I had a lot of fun perusing the Daredevil kink meme -- at least at the time I was there, while there was of course the usual large quantity of porn you would expect, it was very h/c-oriented and had quite a lot of gen too. It was a good place to find the short, indulgent h/c I was craving. (Filterable kinkmeme AO3 collection here.) Via the kinkmeme I also found this AMAZING crackfic about Matt, his friends, and Death. (No really, it's hilarious.)

Date: 2015-12-16 01:33 am (UTC)
ext_3572: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Yes, for me JJ is borderline Type A fandom (borderline because usually a defining feature of Type A is that I want to rewatch the moment I finish, and JJ is so dark that I'm not sure I'll ever want to rewatch the whole thing even though it was excellent and I'm looking forward to more) while DD is type B, flawed and if I rewatched I'd be fastforwarding through a lot of it, and I want more because it didn't give me enough of what I really wanted...but it COULD...!

Awww fic! And your fic, yay! I like your take on Foggy, the Matt-whump story especially covered a lot of what I was thinking was going on with him. Sad that the Foggy h/c epic doesn't exist...am trying to figure out exactly what I want there myself, I know that I want it but am not sure at the form... (...and I should say poor Karen as much as poor Foggy, because if something bad happens to Foggy you just know Matt is going to leave Karen holding the bag while he runs off trying to get revenge or somesuch because Matt is terrible...)(...I actually really like Matt, it's just that most of my liking of him is wanting to see him smacked really hard upside the head. Emotionally, as opposed to the physical beatings he constantly seeks out because clearly it's easier for him to nearly die than deal with feelings!)

Also ahahah to the Death crackfic. Poor TV show Deaths, their lives are So Hard...

Date: 2015-12-16 02:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sheron.livejournal.com
I really lkied DD but I kinda quit JJ around episode 10... I might watch it yet, but the characters annoyed me too much for now.

I wish I could find where I posted my reactions to DD...I think it was in random people's journals (probably sholio's XD ) but essentially one of my favourite parts is that Karen shoots Welsley! I did not expect the show to go through with it no matter how much I wanted her to shoot him. And wow. Loved it. And the hug between Karen & Matt, AWW. Loved that too. I don't ship them romantically at all (in fact I prefer Foggy/Karen because omg cute) but I really like them as friends.

(too exhausted to ramble on more.)

Date: 2015-12-17 12:00 am (UTC)
ext_3572: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Yeah, for me, the characters in JJ didn't bother me as much as usual because of the threat they were against - Kilgrave was just so powerful and so fucked with the heads of everyone who came across him that it was easier to forgive their screw-ups. But I can understand not wanting to go on with it.

Karen killing Wesley was quite a shock, I didn't see it coming! And her hug with Matt was lovely, though I admit I'll like it less if the show tries to ship them - like you said, they're great as friends, but I can't see romance there. And if Matt and Karen started going out it would leave out Foggy in a way that would bug me. Also I really liked Matt/Claire, so...

Date: 2015-12-20 05:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] joonscribble.livejournal.com
I watched this series after JJ and yeah, after that show setting the bar this felt a bit...average? All of my usual favorite tropes came out to play but instead of feeling thrilled, I felt the initial rush of "ooh!" and then rapidly went into "okay, move faster" when stuff kind of dragged on.

I feel like I care less about Matt Murdock as a single character and am more invested in how his life fits in with the lives of Foggy and Karen. That trio is awesome and I weirdly would almost rather watch the legal adventures of Nelson & Murdock & Page than watch Matt be Daredevil.

I get that Matt can't lead with a "Hey, I'm blind but not really" conversation when he meets people and I even get why after all their years together, it might have felt too late for Matt to round back to "So...about the blind thing..." with Foggy. And I get even more why he felt he couldn't share his after hours activities. But my biggest pet peeve was that Matt never actually apologized. Seriously, a "Sorry I'm bad at peopling" wouldn't go amiss, Murdock.

It's one of those things where the larger good of Daredevil's mission is maybe more important on paper than Matt's friendships with Foggy or Karen. But as a viewer it really doesn't feel like that to me. What keeps Matt from going from "good guy vigilante" to "questionable in so many ways vigilante" is that he has 'regular' people like Foggy and Karen to keep him balanced. Without them he either will get dead very quickly or just become a nightcrawler version of Kingpin.

Anyway, that's my rant about this series. As you mentioned before, the stakes of JJ felt ridiculously high plus the character interactions for all the good and bad felt golden. DD had some golden character stuff that got a little buried under the uber mission that didn't feel so golden.

Date: 2015-12-20 10:37 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
In some ways DD worked for me fannishly because it's so old-school, one of those shows that you watch a lot of random action and whatever to get those beautiful bits of friendship. Which was the majority of what I was watching it for. Some of the Daredevil fights and parkour were cool, and I like the contrast of vigilante with lawyer adventures, but I wanted much more of the latter than we got.

And the lack of apology, YES argh!!! Matt Murdock, you suck! In a pathetic feel-sorry-for-him way, and it's not amiss for his character, who dutifully goes to confession but obviously prefers to make his penance in blood and stitches. But I'm spoiled by Sherlock (Elementary's version) into wanting to see some personal responsibility in his relationships. He needs to apologize to Foggy. And also outright answer Foggy's question about whether any of their friendship was real - because the flashbacks made the truth clear but Matt didn't actually say it aloud.

I've been poking at the fanfic for the series but, at least on the gen side, very little of it has Matt owning up to anything, they're too busy whumping him. Which I get, he was an impressively whumped character, plus there's the fascinating challenge of writing the unique perceptions of his POV - but with a show with so much of its best character stuff being backburnered, I want the fic to cover that side, sigh!

Date: 2015-12-20 11:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] joonscribble.livejournal.com
And the lack of apology, YES argh!!! Matt Murdock, you suck! In a pathetic feel-sorry-for-him way, and it's not amiss for his character, who dutifully goes to confession but obviously prefers to make his penance in blood and stitches...He needs to apologize to Foggy. And also outright answer Foggy's question about whether any of their friendship was real - because the flashbacks made the truth clear but Matt didn't actually say it aloud.

I had a long discussion with a friend who didn't feel it was necessary for Matt to apologize because she largely thought Foggy needed to calm down about things Matt really couldn't own up to at the time it was happening (e.g. the vigilantism + superpowers). But my main argument was that Matt chooses to be a vigilante. It's not like someone is holding something over him and forcing him to do these things. He's doing it. And whether he likes it or not, it has an impact on the people around him. I really take to heart Foggy's point that if someone found out who Matt was it wouldn't place him and Karen in danger either professionally or bodily. I mean, cue the millions of fics where the bad guys kidnap them the second they find out who Daredevil is.

Also, Matt's entire "I walk alone" attitude has got to hurt someone like Foggy who threw in his lot with Matt in leaving the security of a huge law firm and starting a business with him, all in the name of friendship and avocados and what not. I think he's earned a basic "I'm sorry" from Matt even if it's on the level of "I'm sorry you're tied to someone who is off doing activities that could get him killed and/or thrown in prison and/or disbarred and is the Titanic of People."

Date: 2015-12-20 11:39 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
I had a long discussion with a friend who didn't feel it was necessary for Matt to apologize because she largely thought Foggy needed to calm down about things Matt really couldn't own up to at the time it was happening (e.g. the vigilantism + superpowers). But my main argument was that Matt chooses to be a vigilante. It's not like someone is holding something over him and forcing him to do these things.

For me, it's this case that Matt had some decent reasons for not telling Foggy about any of it - but at the same time, not telling him was kind of a dick move for a friend. Not just the vigilante'ing, but also the superpowers - generally I'm in favor of autonomy, someone has a right to share or keep their personal secrets as they choose. But Matt's powers are pretty damn invasive, such that they impact any relationship he has - he always has more information about you than you think he does, more than any normal person would have, and that can make someone feel very used and manipulated even if he's not trying to abuse that insight.

So while I don't think Matt was obliged to tell Foggy any of it, at the same time I don't think Foggy was overreacting (actually Sherlock plays into this, too, his deductive skills give him similar advantages - and a large part of his making healthier relationships with people is learning to set boundaries.) Part of their moving forward should be Matt acknowledging that he has crossed personal lines - if not outright apologizing for being who and what he is (because that's a difficult area, his supersenses aren't a choice) at least making it clear to Foggy that Matt does respect him.

As for the vigilante business - Matt's got a more compelling case than some superheroes, that not telling people his identity is protecting them, as Daredevil is a criminal and anyone he tells becomes an accessory. But then at the very least he should apologize for making Foggy an accessory, however accidentally it happened, because yeah, like you say, being a vigilante is Matt's choice, however compelled he feels (actually, of any superhero stories I can think of, Matt's is played most like he's actually addicted to hero'ing, to the adrenaline and the high of saving people; you feel less like cheering him on and more like he needs an intervention...)

Date: 2015-12-20 11:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] joonscribble.livejournal.com
Matt's is played most like he's actually addicted to hero'ing, to the adrenaline and the high of saving people; you feel less like cheering him on and more like he needs an intervention...

I think you've pinpointed why I'm less on board Matt as a single character rather than his character in reference to people like Foggy and Karen. As much as I get his reasoning behind hero-ing, it feels really, really maladaptive. Like, if tomorrow all the people of the world just turned good and no hero-ing was needed, Matt would lose his shit within a month. I liked that Jessica would have absolutely stopped being a hero except the danger levels got too high and she had to do something.

Date: 2015-12-21 12:17 am (UTC)
ext_3572: (Default)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Yeah, Foggy says it outright and from what we see it seems true, that Matt does the superheroing in part because he wants to hit people, and (un)fortunately for him there are a lot of people in his world who need hitting. While as Jessica doesn't crave violence, and while saving people is something of a coping mechanism for her...she's got reason to need coping mechanisms, and that's one of the healthier of her options.

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