Guardian canon question: on Dixing anatomy

[xparrot]

I'm sick and can't concentrate enough to write so have been musing on Guardian instead, as you do, apropos of brush_and_lantern 's current monthly theme, and have a question about Dixingren.

In the Guardian novel, being an urban fantasy, Shen Wei is a ghost/ghoul monster from hell. In the drama, which had to be "science fiction" due to censorship banning magic in modern settings, he and his people are (according to last-minute rewrites of the show) Dixingren, aliens who landed on the planet of Haixing and then mutated to develop dark energy abilities.

But if they are aliens, how close are Dixingren to the (apparently human) Haixingren? One would expect them to be a completely different species (or phylum! or kingdom!!), but in grand comic-book tradition they overtly appear physically identical to the Haixingren, and they may be able to interbreed (the characters speculate that some people, such as the web novelist in ep 7, might have Dixing genes, implying some Haixingren have a Dixing ancestor and so might develop powers). So do Dixingren actually have any physical differences, other than the superpowers?

Now, as a fanfic writer, I say hell yes, of course they do; what is the possible reason for making them aliens unless there are differences to explore? I'm biased, obviously; I love speculating about alien anatomy/biology and keep writing fic with Shen Wei being very non-human in ways that I doubt canon intended but entertain me.

There are more minor details. Like, in the novel Shen Wei as a soulless hell creature is cool to the touch, and some drama fic likewise have it that Dixingren are cooler or warmer than Haixingren. At least for me, I include this not because I think the drama's Dixingren are actually ghosts, but because I enjoy Zhao Yunlan and Shen Wei having such distinct reminders of their being of two worlds, and also temperature differences are *ahem* hot...

Such differences raise interesting questions about how to distinguish Dixingren -- e.g. if they did have a different basal body temperature, infrared cameras could detect it. And indeed, it seems like the SID does have ways to physically identify Dixingren -- in episode 2 when the TK guy goes to attack Li Qian in the hospital, Lin Jing watching on the lab cameras gets an alert on his computer and reports, "This person's vital signs are very abnormal." (这个人的生命表征似乎特别异常). That he has an alert set up for this implies that Dixingren do have noticeable physiological differences from Haixingren -- at least some Dixingren, or some of the time, perhaps when they're actively using their powers? Likewise in episode 12, Lin Jing's scan of Shen Wei registers zero brain activity -- which could be a nod to his soulless existence in the novel, or could mean Shen Wei messed with the scan in some way, presumably because it might detect anatomical difference that he was trying to conceal.

But as far as I know, the show never explains exactly what those differences are. Minor body temperature variances is one type of sign that could be scanned for at a distance with current technology, so seems a likely possibility -- at the same time raising questions like, when Zhao Yunlan is trying to figure out Shen Wei's secrets, why doesn't he try more of such tests?

(My personal headcanon is the one I used in my own drama canon fix-it AU -- that the Dixingren aren't aliens at all but humans who were affected by the spaceship/meteor that crashed, gaining superpowers, and then were rejected by their people and over millennia the story became that they actually had come from the stars. It would explain why they look identical to Haixingren, speak the same language, have a similar culture. And any physiological differences that do exist are just due to the effects of dark energy. Frankly I assume this was the original story in the drama, and then it was either too fantastical or too much like X-men so they went all-in with the aliens? Which I will take, because hell yeah, aliens!)

ETA: qikiqtarjuaq suggests a different interpretation of the opening to explain why Haixingren, Dixingren and Yashou all seem so similar, that might be what the drama was actually going for?

Comments

[qikiqtarjuaq]

I keep re-watching and re-reading the prologue, and it always confuses me on the origins of Haixingren. Were they meant to be the original species on the planet? Because my initial understanding was that the spaceship crashed on an ancient planet. Then its people split up into three tribes, basically. One of them living underground mutated over time to develop special powers. Another group I guess were hippie tree-huggers who loved animals, and developed the ability to shapeshift. And the rest of the population just lived aboveground and became Haixingren. So having come from the same species and diverged in an evolutionary way, it would make sense for them to still share a decent amount of similar characteristics.

But if Haixingren were the original species on the planet, then I think it is a bit odd that there aren't more major differences. Unless of course, Dixingren/Yashou had adaptable biology (kinda like camouflage) that let them integrate with their environments very well?

There's lots of fun alien places to take things with the premise!

[frith_in_thorns]

I picked up the temperature difference thing from fanon while I was doing my post-watch AO3 binge and I liked it so just sort of stuck with it without really thinking about it too much XD (I figured it was a novel detail since I saw it so regularly.)

Actually, on my first watch-through I found the prologue so confusing I basically blanked it from my mind (I have since seen it using solo's subs, which were considerably more intelligible if no less weird) and then I was utterly baffled when Ma Gui mentioned a spaceship, having zero memory of such a thing. But you're right, there are so many wasted opportunities/explanations!

[xparrot]

Huh!! I'd always assumed the Haixingren were native to the planet, since it's called Haixing -- but if that was specifically the name of the overworld where they settled, then it makes a lot more sense to me, that they all came from another planet! (and you could speculate that they were some colony ship from Earth...this doesn't explain why Haixing has Earth things like Big Ben and the Eiffel Tower, but...)

...I still want to know why the Dixingren went underground. Doesn't the intro say specifically that it was being underground that was why they mutated to get superpowers? But why did they go down there to begin with?!?

The alien premise does allow for so much speculation, it's pretty much a free buffet to fandom, you can get almost anything you want out of it!

[qikiqtarjuaq]

I don't know! Every time I re-watch the prologue, that's what I think it's saying, but so many people in fandom have your interpretation that I can't say with any confidence at all that my interpretation is even remotely correct!

I have to think that at the start, there were plenty of resources both aboveground and underground, and given so many sci-fi worlds often have underground societies, I figured they were just a group of people who wanted to live somewhere else. Maybe there were scientists interested in studying something down below. Maybe it had a certain set of resources that were valuable aboveground, so the traders/gatherers moved there. After all, if Dixing and Haixing used the same currency, then there must be trade!

I've always really wanted to read more about the SID/Dixing meeting other aliens and just various sci-fi adventures. There's a lot of potential to expand the canon beyond Dragon City!

[xparrot]

The temperature difference thing is oddly divisive in parts of the fandom, I have seen complaints about it turning up in fic. In part because it is from the novel, and I've seen speculation that the people writing it maybe are confused and think the Dixingren are actually ghosts...but, I mean, whether the Dixingren are actually aliens or descended from the same species as Haixingren, it just makes sense to me that running on dark energy instead of light energy would make for at least a few physiological differences! Plus, yeah, I just enjoy Zhao Yunlan literally warming Shen Wei up...

The prologue is just wild! I remembered the spaceship but missed that the meteor crash was something that happened later, so was confused myself with the past stuff until I watched the opening again...
...no, I lie, even after I rewatched the opening I was still confused! :P Oh, this show...but such opportunities for fic!

[xparrot]

Do you know if there's any consensus in the Chinese side of the fandom about the origins? Because if assuming the Haixingren were native to the planet is all on the English-speaking side, we're all trying to figure it out from possibly wonky translations, so maybe the Chinese is clearer? (in the English translations, it describes "The Yashou" and then "The other aliens chose to stay deep underground on the planet" -- that "the other" definitely sounds like there were only 2 types of aliens, and so the 3rd people are natives. But I'm very curious what the Chinese is!)


I'm also still trying to figure out how a meteor crash destabilized the underground worse than aboveground. Like, Dixing seems to be deep enough to be protected, you'd think it would be aboveground that was impacted more? Or is it that Dixing always got a lot of resources from aboveground (trade of some sort) so then the meteor crash happened and Haixing didn't want to trade anymore but kept its limited resources to itself? (also gotta love the vagueness of "resources" -- was it food and water? or fuel? were they all fighting over oil!?)

[frith_in_thorns]

also gotta love the vagueness of "resources" -- was it food and water? or fuel? were they all fighting over oil!?

T-shirts

[xparrot]

*dies*

[bonibaru]

Solution: write only AUs and you can make them anything you want :D

[rheasilvia]

This is a great topic to muse on - and I think everyone has their own headcanon on this! :-) Personally, I absolutely think that there must be physiological differences, but they must be ones that are only possible to detect through a medical scan (or traumatic injury). So for all we know, Dixingren might not have livers, their kidney might be in their left kneecap, and what seems like a heartbeat might be their brainbeat instead - who's going to know?

On the other hand, while I do understand the attraction of the temperature difference, I don't find it plausible. As you say, it's too easily detectable. The SID would never have to wonder if someone is Dixingren, and would just whip out their infrared goggles at every strange crime scene and interrogation as a matter of routine. Not to mention that Dixingren could never really get close to anyone at all without attracting notice - every handshake would cause comment, and in a closer relationship the difference would be impossible to pass off simply as cold hands. (Mirror!Girl could not possibly have switched places with her double, for example.)

But I hasten to add that I am in no way saying that you/people who like the temp diff shouldn't use it in fiction! In fanfic, the most important rule should be what the author wants to write. That's rather the point, in my view. :-)

My personal headcanon is the one I used in my own drama canon fix-it AU -- that the Dixingren aren't aliens at all but humans who were affected by the spaceship/meteor that crashed, gaining superpowers, and then were rejected by their people and over millennia the story became that they actually had come from the stars.

That's a really great explanation - which also covers the absence of super advanced technology in Ancient Haixing.

My own headcanon (or one of them, actually *g*) is that Dixingren adapted to Haixing just as the Yashou did, but not by melding with indigenous life, but through advanced mimicry. The people who arrived on the spaceship actually looked completely different.

[qikiqtarjuaq]

Chinese fandom's take on the world-building in the drama is that they don't care enough to make sense of it. XD But honestly, I think I'm like the only person I know who came away with that interpretation, so I'm probably wrong and just hit on a head-canon that made more sense to me than aliens coincidentally looking the same as the species of the planet they landed on.

And yeah, it's interesting that for whatever reason, the meteor impact affected Dixing more than Haixing. Like, did Dixing survive solely on food/water from Haixing in return for gems or something? Surely there was some essential stuff underground too that Haixing would need?

The funniest damned thing is I googled this and found an article that said Asteroid Impacts Could Help Out Underground Life. So now I want an AU where the asteroids sent Haixing into refugee status instead, trying to find a safe place to live underground.

[rheasilvia]

I really love your interpretation! It's not how I've interpreted the prologue, but hey, I don't speak Chinese, and in all honesty I am pretty sure that even native speakers are left with a lot of questions after this particular infodump. ;-)

Unless of course, Dixingren/Yashou had adaptable biology (kinda like camouflage) that let them integrate with their environments very well?

That is my usual headcanon - that the Dixingren on the spaceship looked completely different, but had the ability to adapt, and did so in two different ways (merging with indigenous life and extreme mimicry). I am not decided on whether I think that the Yashou and Dixing people were the same species originally, and just diverged through adapting in different ways, or whether they were already different on the spaceship.

And now I will add your headcanon as a third headcanon of my own! They are all so interesting that I feel they can peacefully co-exist. ;-)

[xparrot]

Huh, I wonder if that's part of the issue with people disliking the temperature difference -- I don't imagine or write it to be THAT different? like, I don't generally think Dixingren are 10 degrees cooler than Haixingren! I was assuming that they run a degree or two cooler. So still within generally human range, so it's difficult to detect through infrared, and it wouldn't strike people as bizarre, just that they tend to have cool hands etc.

Though, as for how detectable it is -- that was part of my point; in the show itself, it strongly implies that Dixingren ARE physiologically detectable sometimes? So I have no idea why they aren't whipping out detection devices all the time?? I can't make sense of that at all, tbh, that they can identify Dixingren sometimes but not always (I suspect it's because the writers realized quickly that it made the writing more difficult, but then they didn't go back and change that early ep...)

which also covers the absence of super advanced technology in Ancient Haixing.

Yeah this is another thing I wondered about, how they lost the technology from the spaceship...(though it does explain how they had writing 10K years ago?)

[qikiqtarjuaq]

Yay for all the head-canons! I really like yours too, because it opens up the possibility of Shen Wei (hilariously) adapting himself at a faster speed due to his learning superpowers. I mean, I joke about him having a radar for Zhao Yunlan doing stupid shit, but what if he evolved a soulbonding ability to sense his loved one's distress!

[xparrot]

Or just make them whatever I want anyway! XD (honestly my biggest takeaway from examining canon is that it's so inconsistent/open to interpretation you can just get what you want from it!)

[frith_in_thorns]

This is definitely something great about this sometimes quite stupid canon -- it's so easy to justify so many things that coincidentally are exactly what you need to be true in order to make a fic idea work :D :D

[rheasilvia]

Hmm. I guess I assumed that in order to be noticeable at all, it would be more than a degree or two... Perhaps not 10 degrees, but a difference that a Haixingren can feel should also be easily detectable by technological means (sensors are generally far more precise). But hey, who knows, in this universe. For all we know, they might never have developed infrared technology at all. Or Haixingren are super-sensitive to temperature. ;-)

I suspect it's because the writers realized quickly that it made the writing more difficult, but then they didn't go back and change that early ep...

I suspect you are right. :-) And I still don't understand why on Haixing Shen Wei volunteered for a scan that was bound to end up extremely troublesome for him in some way, especially since his lack of prowess with technology makes any attempt at fudging the results highly risky. (Maybe he thought he could, but messed up...)

it does explain how they had writing 10K years ago

Given their general cultural level at the point of time Zhao Yunlan travelled back to, I would consider it implausible for them not to have writing... Though, yes, that the language is the same that's still spoken in modern Haixing is... rather odd. ;-)

[bonibaru]

It's one of my favorite things tbh. Tighter canons sort of rope you in to a smaller playground.

[xparrot]

Chinese fandom's take on the world-building in the drama is that they don't care enough to make sense of it. XD

Very wise! XD But your interpretation makes so much sense, I can see why once you got it, that was just how you read it.

Even in canon, the history we get is presented as history, such that there is so much wiggle-room -- like, even back in the past, no one seems to still be alive who came down in the spaceship, so who's to say for sure how accurate the stories are?

So now I want an AU where the asteroids sent Haixing into refugee status instead, trying to find a safe place to live underground

Ahhh, Shen Wei and Ye Zun's story might've gone very differently, if the Dixingren had all the power!

[rheasilvia]

That's another really interesting thought! For some reason I had assumed modern Dixingren didn't have the adaptive ability anymore, but really, why shouldn't they...?

what if he evolved a soulbonding ability to sense his loved one's distress

If spontaneous evolution is at all possible, Shen Wei will definitely be the one to do this. He has his priorities straight! :-)

[rheasilvia]

Yes! I also think that's one of canon's particular strengths. It's so charmingly focussed on the important things (read: the relationship!) that the worldbuilding is malleable and can fit around it. :-)

[xparrot]

A couple degrees of difference is pretty noticeable -- cats run about 3 degrees F warmer than humans, which is why they feel warm to us, and if you've ever cuddled a kid with even a low-grade fever, you can tell! But at the same time it doesn't strike you as completely foreign or wrong, because it's within normal human variation -- like, I run cold, and I have friends who feel warm to me all the time, but I don't think they're aliens?

So if Dixingren have an average body temperature of 96 F, that's enough that to a lot of humans, they'd feel cooler, but infrared wouldn't tell you for sure that they were alien -- at best that they were more likely to be alien, but it wouldn't be a guarantee.

Honestly, I don't understand why the SID doesn't ever try to scan people for Dixing origins! Like, they have a dark energy detector? and we know that Dixingren have dark energy instead of light energy inside them? So why isn't that detectable? (Private headcanon -- it's possible to detect Dixingren pretty easily, but Zhao Yunlan has been sabotaging this for a while because his mandate is only to capture Dixingren who are illicitly using their powers, not everyone who just happens to hail from down below...)

especially since his lack of prowess with technology makes any attempt at fudging the results highly risky. (Maybe he thought he could, but messed up...)


Or else part of his official human disguise is something that automatically fools scanners?

Given their general cultural level at the point of time Zhao Yunlan travelled back to, I would consider it implausible for them not to have writing... Though, yes, that the language is the same that's still spoken in modern Haixing is... rather odd. ;-)

The modern language is...yeah. Modern writing systems, too, because they talk about what character "Wei" is! But then what happened to Haixing culture anyway, that it takes them 10K years to get to a tech level that we on Earth reached in like half that...and we weren't coming from spaceships!

[rheasilvia]

Or else part of his official human disguise is something that automatically fools scanners?

Not very well, if so. ;-)

it's possible to detect Dixingren pretty easily, but Zhao Yunlan has been sabotaging this for a while because his mandate is only to capture Dixingren who are illicitly using their powers, not everyone who just happens to hail from down below

Oh man, I do really like this for Zhao Yunlan characterization reasons. But I don't think Zhao Yunlan would have been in time to manage this feat, given that he's only been Chief for three years, and Zhao Xinci and the unnamed Second Chief had a lot of time to develop detectors of some kind (even if they didn't have the benefit of Lin Jing).

Perhaps the SID is so underfunded that it was never possible for financial reasons, and Lin Jing is the first competent scientist who could be made to work for cheap...?

(I'm also uncertain whether Zhao Yunlan would make that choice. There is definitely the danger of a witch hunt that he would do almost anything to avoid, but passing on a tool to help catch criminals more quickly also endangers lives. Kind of an impossible decision there.)

[xparrot]

Perhaps the SID is so underfunded that it was never possible for financial reasons, and Lin Jing is the first competent scientist who could be made to work for cheap...?

Hah, that could be it!

--Actually, thinking about it more, it's possible that Dixingren can be detected, but the SID has yet to figure out those markers because they've never had the chance. Both because they didn't have a scientist on hand, and because they didn't have anyone to study -- at least from what we see during the run of the show, the BCE is usually pretty prompt to show up and collect Dixing criminals, sometimes even before they're taken into custody. If Dixingren activity was usually pretty low, as is implied -- and also if ZXC was trigger-happy, as we've seen evidence of -- then there may have been very few opportunities to identify Dixingren characteristics clearly enough to make definitive detectors.

Which is why there's Lin Jing's alert when there's someone with unusual vital signs -- he's just casting as wide as net as he can, looking for anything unusual. So Dixingren may indeed run several degrees cooler than humans -- but not enough that it's strikingly noticeable, still within personal variance of humans (and through various layers of clothing infrared temperature reading can't be that accurate anyway?) and it's not something they know for sure anyway. They might have other fairly distinct if subtle differences as well, e.g. differing average pulserates, oxygen levels, etc -- but the SID doesn't know for sure; they've never been able to take enough measurements to develop a workable baseline, especially if the Dixingren baserates do fall within normal human variation -- just on the edges.

Now, if Lin Jing did develop a reliable detector...yeah, I think that would be a really hard call for Zhao Yunlan to make, trying to balance the lives it could save vs those it could ruin (Guardian: Civil War!)

...aaaah and please forgive the lengths I'm going on about this! You're not the first person I've seen arguing that Dixingren temperature/other differences are illogical/noncanonical, and it bugs me a bit because yes, I do it in my fic because I personally like it; but I also am prone to way overthinking things and dwelling on canon, I spend way too much time making tiny details in my fic work in my head, and if I really thought this was completely unworkable I wouldn't be so partial to it!

[rheasilvia]

Actually, thinking about it more, it's possible that Dixingren can be detected, but the SID has yet to figure out those markers because they've never had the chance

I do think that you're right and not terribly much is actually known about Dixingren physiology, and that the BCE is actively working to keep it that way. BUT: Lin Jing has been able to develop an anti-Dixingren shield *and code in exceptions for particular individuals* (Old Chu and the BCE/Shen Wei). To be able to pinpoint characteristics that will distinguish one particular person from other Dixingren, and let this person through the shield while blocking the others... I can't see how that would be possible except for the use of advanced knowledge of at least some Dixingren vital signs. Dark Energy signature or some such, perhaps...?

(Obviously the shield does not just block all Dark Energy, either, because Yashou and artefacts are not affected...)

The lack of Dixingren detection devices just keeps getting stranger! I don't have a good theory at this point, I confess.

I also am prone to way overthinking things and dwelling on canon, I spend way too much time making tiny details in my fic work in my head

Not at all!! I am exactly the same - I need everything to fit together perfectly in my mind in order for me to feel happy with my fictional universe, even if the details in question will never be noticed by the reader (or don't even appear in the actual story at all). You may have noticed that I, too, have Strong Opinions about some canon details relevant to my personal fictional universe, and may occasionally be too eager to share them. ;-)

(I am still bothered by one instance where I made myself ignore a canonical fact in order to write a story - that was mostly a PWP - the way I wanted to write it. This was... something like 15 years ago? Errrm. I have never done that again. *g*)