Of Rivalship and RivalSlash
Jun. 30th, 2005 11:33 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
xparrotThe thing is, I love the rivalry relationship in fiction. But for the most part I don't go for slashing rivals. And I'm trying to figure out why.
I have a long-standing affection for rivalship. For the most part I'm not talking about the villain/hero dynamic (though that's closely related, and also fascinates me) but rivals. "Best enemies," who might have started out as actual foes, even trying to kill one another, but somewhere along the way they've become neutral, or allies, sometimes even two members of a team. But they don't get along, due to fundamental differences (or similarities) of personality, or philosophy, or sometimes just because one or both of them is an ass. And they're constantly trying to prove themselves over the other, always snarking, always, competing, always driving one another to new levels.
They're especially common in fight shounen, fighting face to face as much as back to back, and their chosen expression of affection is "Don't die and deny me the chance of killing you first!" To varying degrees, this is Goku and Vegeta. Ranma and Ryouga. Kenshin and Saitou. Sanzo and Gojyo. Ban and Shido. Yuusuke and Kuwabara. Zoro and Sanji. My latest crush, Yugi and Kaiba. They're countless, and I don't get tired of them.
All these pairs have two things in common: they're one of my favorite relationships of the series in question, often my absolute favorite relationship; for many of them one of the chars (most often the rival) is my favorite character of the series.
And, while slash exists for pretty much all of them, I don't have that much interest in reading or writing it for any of them.
It's a conundrum that's puzzled me for a while, ever since I figured out that yeah, I like slash. It would be pretty damn hot in a lot of these cases. And I can certainly see where it comes from: these chars all have chemistry. They're incredibly deeply bonded--some of them I even call soulmates, not in the romantic sense, but in that they're virtually tied together by fate, absolutely unable to ignore the existence one another, no matter how much it stings. They exist to play off each other.
If you convert that heated intensity to sexual passion, there's pretty much three ways it can go. The first is an unconsummated relationship. Either the attraction is one-sided, an unrequited love--but that's depressing, while not being the kind of high tragedy fangirls like me like to write or read; or it's all UST, which gets frustrating after a while. Sooner or later one craves resolution.
So the two rivals end up engaging in casual, meaningless, extremely sexy sex. Often repeatedly. But a few problems arise with this. For whatever reasons, in many such rivalships, one or both of the two are canonically involved with someone else (often romantically, though it can be an intense friendship or sibling love). While not universally true, I tend to be a canon whore, and don't care to see canon couples broken up, even for the sake of hot boysex, especially when it would be OOC for someone to abandon a loved one for the hated rival. Especially when those couples are OTPs, which a lot of them are for me. More on that later.
Even if both of the rivals are unattached, however, it's hard to maintain casual sex for very long. It's fine for a PWP, but in longer stories, only certain characters have the sort of mindset and life situation that could make a pair believably be fucking, while not having it affect their interactions outside of the sack. If it doesn't turn to something more, it's liable to start breeding resentment, changing the relationship dynamic. One of my favorite aspects of rivalries is the certain definite respect between the rivals; they may despise each other, but they acknowledge one another as equals (or close to); the competition doesn't have the same bite if they're not closely matched. Casual sex, using one another, can too easily damage that mutual respect. There's also the issue of the seme-uke dichotomy, difficult to avoid in animanga fic, in which a relationship requires a dominant and a submissive partner; if those roles are fixed in a story, they introduce an innate power imbalance.
Moreover, in its way, sex without romance, without caring, is even more frustrating than UST. It's almost getting there, but not quite. Because what much rivalslash is driving to in the end is the admission of mutual love between the rivals. Not necessarily verbally; that's pretty much impossible with some of the characters. But in deeds if not in words, the rivals manage to put aside their differences and become lovers.
Except--this undermines the whole rivalry. They might still snap at each other, might still fight and compete, but what's important is the way they truly feel. The intensity of their clashing is supplanted by the intensity of their devotion, and their aggression becomes a sham, a game, just a cover. The snarking still is funny, the peculiar ways of showing grudging affection still is cute. But the edge, the fire is gone. Any doubts about whether they really care, how important they are to one another, are erased.
Now, wait just a minute. I've thrown Gojyo into a freezing river just to make Sanzo take care of his hypothermic ass. I write fifty thousand words just to get Zoro to say "I hate you" to Sanji and have it unequivocally mean "I love you." Obviously I like admissions of caring between rivals as much as the next fangirl! So why the anti-slash, even when it's not interfering with my chosen OTPs?
The difference is the nature of the connection. Friends of a certain type can still be rivals, still compete all-out. Romantic lovers should be more supportive of one another, depend on each other in different ways. This is why in so many rival pairings, the rivals do have close relationships with other people--they need others they can rely on, absolutely and unconditionally, without the stress of the rivalry. I love that kind of relationship, too, the total, trusting partnership, such as Ban and Ginji have. But it's a completely different dynamic from rivalship. I enjoy both, and don't especially want to see one transmuted in the other. Especially when I can often have both.
Which leads back to my OTPs. In certain cases I'll be fond of one pairing partly because it allows for exploration of another relationship, without the need to make the latter romantic, since the romance is already present. In Dragonball Z, I loved reading Buma/Vegeta - but while I found them a fun pairing, even more I liked Vegeta and Goku's incredibly intense connection. And it was a rare B/V story that didn't have at least a bit of that, because it's pretty much impossible to write an IC Vegeta without mentioning Goku sooner or later. Vegeta defines himself by how he measures up to Kakarrot.
--Incidentally, you'll note that while my OTPs will vary between het and slash, not a single rivalship I've referenced is male-female. This could be because men and women compete in fundamentally different ways, and therefore don't have that nearly perfectly matched, competitive championship drive that is essential to rivalry. It could also be that in the great general tradition of romance trumps all, it's pretty much impossible to find a male-female love-hate relationship that doesn't canonically become love-love eventually.
There are varying degrees to rivalry, obviously. It tends to be that the less intense the conflict, the easier I am about slashing it. I've developed a taste for Zoro and Sanji, partly because while they have rivalry tendencies, they're not so dependent on it as most (they aren't really evenly matched competitors; Zoro lives for the fight, and Sanji doesn't) and what they have is pretty clearly friendship anyway, albeit of an abusive and argumentative sort. ZoSan also is one of the few pairings that I could see as completely casual sex without it messing up their dynamic, just mutual pleasure between comrades, and that's how I like to write and read it. The moment it crosses the line into a love story, I lose interest.
What it comes down to, in the end, is that while I love the dependency of rivalship, and enjoy seeing the relationship acknowledged, I don't really want more than is already there. The complex relationship that draws me to rivals is that idea of needing someone else, not because you want their body or enjoy their presence, but because that other, striving against you, challenging you, defines who you are. In the end, I don't want rivals to admit, "You're important to me in spite of our differences," but, "You're important because of them, because our rivalry makes me who I am." Which I find as involving and affecting a bond as any true love affair.
I have a long-standing affection for rivalship. For the most part I'm not talking about the villain/hero dynamic (though that's closely related, and also fascinates me) but rivals. "Best enemies," who might have started out as actual foes, even trying to kill one another, but somewhere along the way they've become neutral, or allies, sometimes even two members of a team. But they don't get along, due to fundamental differences (or similarities) of personality, or philosophy, or sometimes just because one or both of them is an ass. And they're constantly trying to prove themselves over the other, always snarking, always, competing, always driving one another to new levels.
They're especially common in fight shounen, fighting face to face as much as back to back, and their chosen expression of affection is "Don't die and deny me the chance of killing you first!" To varying degrees, this is Goku and Vegeta. Ranma and Ryouga. Kenshin and Saitou. Sanzo and Gojyo. Ban and Shido. Yuusuke and Kuwabara. Zoro and Sanji. My latest crush, Yugi and Kaiba. They're countless, and I don't get tired of them.
All these pairs have two things in common: they're one of my favorite relationships of the series in question, often my absolute favorite relationship; for many of them one of the chars (most often the rival) is my favorite character of the series.
And, while slash exists for pretty much all of them, I don't have that much interest in reading or writing it for any of them.
It's a conundrum that's puzzled me for a while, ever since I figured out that yeah, I like slash. It would be pretty damn hot in a lot of these cases. And I can certainly see where it comes from: these chars all have chemistry. They're incredibly deeply bonded--some of them I even call soulmates, not in the romantic sense, but in that they're virtually tied together by fate, absolutely unable to ignore the existence one another, no matter how much it stings. They exist to play off each other.
If you convert that heated intensity to sexual passion, there's pretty much three ways it can go. The first is an unconsummated relationship. Either the attraction is one-sided, an unrequited love--but that's depressing, while not being the kind of high tragedy fangirls like me like to write or read; or it's all UST, which gets frustrating after a while. Sooner or later one craves resolution.
So the two rivals end up engaging in casual, meaningless, extremely sexy sex. Often repeatedly. But a few problems arise with this. For whatever reasons, in many such rivalships, one or both of the two are canonically involved with someone else (often romantically, though it can be an intense friendship or sibling love). While not universally true, I tend to be a canon whore, and don't care to see canon couples broken up, even for the sake of hot boysex, especially when it would be OOC for someone to abandon a loved one for the hated rival. Especially when those couples are OTPs, which a lot of them are for me. More on that later.
Even if both of the rivals are unattached, however, it's hard to maintain casual sex for very long. It's fine for a PWP, but in longer stories, only certain characters have the sort of mindset and life situation that could make a pair believably be fucking, while not having it affect their interactions outside of the sack. If it doesn't turn to something more, it's liable to start breeding resentment, changing the relationship dynamic. One of my favorite aspects of rivalries is the certain definite respect between the rivals; they may despise each other, but they acknowledge one another as equals (or close to); the competition doesn't have the same bite if they're not closely matched. Casual sex, using one another, can too easily damage that mutual respect. There's also the issue of the seme-uke dichotomy, difficult to avoid in animanga fic, in which a relationship requires a dominant and a submissive partner; if those roles are fixed in a story, they introduce an innate power imbalance.
Moreover, in its way, sex without romance, without caring, is even more frustrating than UST. It's almost getting there, but not quite. Because what much rivalslash is driving to in the end is the admission of mutual love between the rivals. Not necessarily verbally; that's pretty much impossible with some of the characters. But in deeds if not in words, the rivals manage to put aside their differences and become lovers.
Except--this undermines the whole rivalry. They might still snap at each other, might still fight and compete, but what's important is the way they truly feel. The intensity of their clashing is supplanted by the intensity of their devotion, and their aggression becomes a sham, a game, just a cover. The snarking still is funny, the peculiar ways of showing grudging affection still is cute. But the edge, the fire is gone. Any doubts about whether they really care, how important they are to one another, are erased.
Now, wait just a minute. I've thrown Gojyo into a freezing river just to make Sanzo take care of his hypothermic ass. I write fifty thousand words just to get Zoro to say "I hate you" to Sanji and have it unequivocally mean "I love you." Obviously I like admissions of caring between rivals as much as the next fangirl! So why the anti-slash, even when it's not interfering with my chosen OTPs?
The difference is the nature of the connection. Friends of a certain type can still be rivals, still compete all-out. Romantic lovers should be more supportive of one another, depend on each other in different ways. This is why in so many rival pairings, the rivals do have close relationships with other people--they need others they can rely on, absolutely and unconditionally, without the stress of the rivalry. I love that kind of relationship, too, the total, trusting partnership, such as Ban and Ginji have. But it's a completely different dynamic from rivalship. I enjoy both, and don't especially want to see one transmuted in the other. Especially when I can often have both.
Which leads back to my OTPs. In certain cases I'll be fond of one pairing partly because it allows for exploration of another relationship, without the need to make the latter romantic, since the romance is already present. In Dragonball Z, I loved reading Buma/Vegeta - but while I found them a fun pairing, even more I liked Vegeta and Goku's incredibly intense connection. And it was a rare B/V story that didn't have at least a bit of that, because it's pretty much impossible to write an IC Vegeta without mentioning Goku sooner or later. Vegeta defines himself by how he measures up to Kakarrot.
--Incidentally, you'll note that while my OTPs will vary between het and slash, not a single rivalship I've referenced is male-female. This could be because men and women compete in fundamentally different ways, and therefore don't have that nearly perfectly matched, competitive championship drive that is essential to rivalry. It could also be that in the great general tradition of romance trumps all, it's pretty much impossible to find a male-female love-hate relationship that doesn't canonically become love-love eventually.
There are varying degrees to rivalry, obviously. It tends to be that the less intense the conflict, the easier I am about slashing it. I've developed a taste for Zoro and Sanji, partly because while they have rivalry tendencies, they're not so dependent on it as most (they aren't really evenly matched competitors; Zoro lives for the fight, and Sanji doesn't) and what they have is pretty clearly friendship anyway, albeit of an abusive and argumentative sort. ZoSan also is one of the few pairings that I could see as completely casual sex without it messing up their dynamic, just mutual pleasure between comrades, and that's how I like to write and read it. The moment it crosses the line into a love story, I lose interest.
What it comes down to, in the end, is that while I love the dependency of rivalship, and enjoy seeing the relationship acknowledged, I don't really want more than is already there. The complex relationship that draws me to rivals is that idea of needing someone else, not because you want their body or enjoy their presence, but because that other, striving against you, challenging you, defines who you are. In the end, I don't want rivals to admit, "You're important to me in spite of our differences," but, "You're important because of them, because our rivalry makes me who I am." Which I find as involving and affecting a bond as any true love affair.
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no subject
Date: 2005-06-30 08:43 pm (UTC)No, really, I ought to reply to this at length sometime when I'm not tired and embroiled in RP, but I have a one-track mind lately, so. XD
no subject
Date: 2005-07-01 08:01 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-06-30 08:59 pm (UTC)You know, when you mentioned the seme/uke part throwing off the power balance earlier in this post, it flipped a light switch in my head and I went "Aha! That could be why I have next to no interest in rivalshipping anyone except Touda and Suzaku!" (From Yami no Matsuei.) They have a dynamic I find fascinating, and angersex between them, being het, would not make it come off as though one of them had "won". (Though I'm sure Suzaku would act as if she did anyhow. ;))
Other than that, I like the idea of rivals just being rivals, perhaps with occasional moments of UST or mockingly suggestive dialogue, but never going so far as to stop them from being rivals. (And now I'm thinking I need to read more Eroica.)
no subject
Date: 2005-07-01 08:05 am (UTC)Eroica! Yes! Didn't even think of that one, but that could be why the eternal UST doesn't bother me, and why I've not really enjoyed the few fic I've tried...I don't want either the Major or the Earl to come out 'on top', they're much more entertaining when balanced (and now I will not think about Eroica, else I go insane for want of the next volume...)
no subject
Date: 2005-06-30 09:16 pm (UTC)It always seems to be the more at odds with each other two characters are, the more fascinating the translation to a "something more" their characteristics stand to be. Or, sometimes, the more room for exploration that's given, the more interesting they seem. (Though why I refuse to read Naruto/Sasuke, I'll never figure out .. maybe it's the way their HoYay is so thoroughly shoved in my face, or maybe it's my averseness to jailbait, I'll never know.)
*cough* Anyway, very nicely done write up! I feel as if all the sentiments I hold toward my OTPs of choice now have some sort of .. I don't want to say "justification", but a means of being voiced. Thank you!
no subject
Date: 2005-07-01 08:12 am (UTC)Naruto/Sasuke I didn't mention mostly because I can see it, and sort of like it, though I don't read it. Maybe because it is pretty-damn-close to canon, or maybe because they're not exactly rivals - it's one-sided, what I've seen, Naruto is all RAR MUST DEFEAT SASUKE and Sasuke is like, sure, whatever, MUST DEFEAT EVIL BROTHER. It doesn't have that same aspect of respect that you see between Goku & Vegeta, in which Vegeta by the end admits Goku is the stronger, but still wants to strive to reach his level, and Goku loves to fight him because even if he is stronger, it's never an easy win.
no subject
Date: 2005-06-30 09:58 pm (UTC)Yuki v Kyou? Kyou.
Yusuke v Kuwabara? Kuwabara.
Ranma v Ryouga? Ryouga.
The only exception is ZoSan, because my fave is Usopp. Still. He's a coward and a goof and I tend towards those types too. I'm now horrified by my predictability. I hope you're happy!
PS. I have the same problem with rivalslash--except I want to read it, but then find it rarely satisfies me. Too much romance, too little of what I liked about the relationship to start with, ya.
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Date: 2005-07-01 08:48 am (UTC)Of course my other reason for not liking rivalslash is that 9 times out of 10 I really do prefer gen, of any relationship, any series. It's just too hard to find good gen. >_>
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Date: 2005-06-30 10:03 pm (UTC)I'll give you one: Ichigo-Tatsuki. Ichigo constantly spent his childhood trying to beat her in a fight, and when he finally DID get his victory, he absolutely refuses to fight her again. She's very bitter about it.
Hmm. Renji and Rukia, too, had a huge rivalry going on as they grew up. I think they still do. It's an oddly defined rivalry. It borders on sibling rivalry--except not because they are the definition of hetslash.
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Date: 2005-07-01 08:54 am (UTC)OP has Kuina & Zoro in the past, with the same kind of competition, except Kuina died before Zoro could ever defeat her. And that is again a relationship that I don't like to put a romantic spin on.
no subject
Date: 2005-06-30 10:46 pm (UTC)Rival slash doesn't appeal to me. Harry/Draco melts my brain unless very well-written. Kuwabara/Yuusuke... makes me snicker like a teenage boy and snort water out my nose, actually.
In the end, I don't want rivals to admit, "You're important to me in spite of our differences," but, "You're important because of them, because our rivalry makes me who I am."
That's as good a means of describing Kuwabara and Yuusuke as any. Kuwabara spends his younger years pitting himself against Yuusuke, gauging his strength based solely on how good he is against Yuusuke and despite their constant clashes, he respects Yuusuke because he's stronger. And when Yuusuke is killed, Kuwabara reacts to that not as the loss of a friend, necessarily, but as the loss of a pivotal influence in his life. He never got to beat Yuusuke, and now he never will.
And then Yuusuke comes back to life and they spend the next few years killing demons and saving the world, but I digress.
I also think Yuusuke had a similar need. He wasn't pitting his strength against Kuwabara (although he did acknowledge that Kuwabara was strong and that probably helped keep him on his toes). He was comparing himself to Kuwabara in terms of character and honor.
If a fanfic has Yuusuke and Kuwabara wake up one morning and declare that their fighting had been silly and they should get down to some serious snuggling, then a huge part of what makes those two close - their need to prove themselves to each other, and their need to excel against one another - has been completely dismissed. That need is what makes the best friend/rival relationship so appealing to me.
If that made no sense, it's probably because I'm crazy. But I'll try blaming it on the late, late hour. *grins*
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Date: 2005-07-01 09:34 am (UTC)Good point about Yuusuke & Kuwabara, that they're rivaling one another on different levels, Kuwabara seeking to best Yuusuke in physical strength (impossible though that may be), and Yuusuke measuring the power of his own will against Kuwabara's impossible ambition. That's where the honest respect between rivals comes from; even when one of them is the more powerful in one area, they still will respect the other for their strength in another area. (when rivals fight, there's often the moment when one goes down, and then gets back up again, and the seeming victor stares in disbelief/admiration, that they may be strong enough to win, but all the same their rival is too strong to lose...)
And Harry/Draco, ehhhh I don't see it at all, but even if I did, they might count more as *enemies* than rivals...sort of depends where the story is going. Canonically speaking I don't recall ever seeing any respect between them, just mutual hatred. (maybe I should do a followup post defining 'enemy' vs 'rival'. It gets confusing because it's fairly common for one to develop into the other - Goku and Vegeta, Londo and G'kar - and it's all a continuum anyway, but I think respect factors into it. Though there are enemies who respect each other - Holmes acknowledging Moriarty as a genius mastermind - so...hmm...)
no subject
Date: 2005-06-30 10:47 pm (UTC)But when it does keep my interest? It often becomes a pairing that I *really* love. Naruto/Sasuke is one of them. Their relationship changes enough in different parts of the series to keep me interested (it's also very one sided for a better part of it and they've never entirely struck me as "true" rivals anyway). Another one that I really love is Light/L from Death Note. Given the circumstances of their relationship, it could *never* turn into love and mind games can be interwoven into a sexual relationship in such a nice and twisted way. Come to think of it, I think those are the only rival pairings that I actively ship.
But rivals are most definitely fun. ^__^ They seem to always be the first characters in a series to grab me.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-01 09:39 am (UTC)I think the pairings that have *no chance* of turning into love, such as L & Light (man, I really gotta read DeathNote someday), are less rivals and more true enemies, completely on opposite sides. As I mentioned, I love the enemy relationship too, because it does have that same fundamental dependency, in that one is defining themselves by not being the other. Valjean and Javert, eternally pursuer and pursued, and Valjean in the end destroys Javert when he proves himself not the villain, and thus proves Javert to be. There's an innately destructive side to true enemies that rivals don't have.
And enemy!sex can be hot, but it's never going to be what one would call romance. It's never going to have the seme-uke power imbalance; if there's submission, it's never going to be willing submission.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-01 02:58 am (UTC)But the more I read the most, the more I started to rethink my position. Not my definitions of rivalslash vs enemyslash, but that I'm not quite the rivalslash fan that I thought I was. I suppose I tend more towards relationships that have many of the same elements (I like the snark, the driving each other crazy with irritation, the definitive impact of that person on your life), not necessarily the rivalslash itself. Like, Dragonball Z is a great example of that. The relationship between Vejiita and Goku is what defines Vejiita in so many ways, it's so much of what he pieced himself back together with after the whole thing with Freeza ended, even when he moved on, got married, had kids, he still defined himself so much by his rivalry with Goku.
Yet, I couldn't 'ship it ever, I don't think. The idea of romance between them just doesn't compute, even aside from that I'm a devout fan of both Goku/Chichi and Vejiita/Bulma. And, at the same time, I think Vejiita/Bulma is just the best thing ever, the way they snark and fight and neither gives an inch without a fight. I go for those pairings, I'm often times fascinated by those relationships even more than the defining rivalslashes. (It's the same with Ranma 1/2, the way Ranma/Akane fascinates me and I don't think I could 'ship Ranma/Ryouga.)
So, I think, well, maybe I just don't like rivalslash itself, I like pairings that simply have elements of it. But for every instance like the above, there's a ZoSan or a SasuNaru or Ryuhou/Kazuma, a relationship that I do see as romantic. (Maybe it's the difference between a canon romance for one of the characters that is very close to the rivalship that makes the difference. With Ranma/Akane, I'd almost argue that Akane makes up more of Ranma's world than anyone else, Bulma is a strong presence in Vejiita's life, the whole Majin Buu thing really brought that home, etc. Would I not care for ZoSan as much if, say, Zoro and Nami's snarking and fighting was intended to be canon-esque romance?)
no subject
Date: 2005-07-01 02:58 am (UTC)Though, with the ones I do 'ship, it's usually those that could survive the transition from UST to a sexual relationship, that they can find that faint line between caring too much and too-casual sex. Because you're right that, when they move to what a traditional (ie, supportive and soothing/comforting) romantic relationship should be, it takes away from what make the relationship so fascinating in the first place. I think they also sort of have to enjoy the fight, that it makes their blood rush, it makes the world seem sharper, that they look forward to it, almost try to coax it out. Are they ever having more fun than when they're fighting each other? (Goku and Vejiita are the big exception to this. Maybe it's because I just can't imagine Goku putting together fighting = chemistry = UST = sex. Vejiita, sure. Just look at his relationship with Bulma. But Goku seems to be much more peaceful in his relationships with people he cares about, for all that he enjoys a good fight.)
I think that's a good part of what makes a rivalslash pairing interesting, if they get a charge out of fighting the other person, rather than feeling like it drags them down or just makes them dislike that person more. If they can keep that same rivalry going, the same defition of each of them by the other's presence, but not have it turned into schoompy romance, I think you've got the makings of a good OTP there. (I suppose it also depends on something you hit on, whether each of them needs someone who understands more than they need someone they like to fight with. I don't think Zoro or Sanji needs someone to be supportive for either of them, to be the one to look at them in the way no one else does, even if only for a moment. So I feel much freer to 'ship them happily.)
no subject
Date: 2005-07-01 03:13 pm (UTC)I agree there's a definite difference between enemy!slash and rival!slash (more about that in one of my responses above). While I can see the attraction of hate!sex, that relationship is a whole different kettle of fish from the grudging respect/affection/love between rivals. I'm also starting to think that there's more than one distinct type of rivals for me, because as mentioned, I don't mind ZoSan, and I'm fond of SasuNaru myself...
Maybe it is the OTP thing, because I'm having trouble thinking of a rivalry pairing I like that has an alternate pairing I also believe in. But there's still some differences. With Ranma and Ryouga, yes, I agree Akane is the most important to Ranma in the end, as Ginji is far more important to Ban than Shido. But Goku and Vegeta...I don't think either of them could make a distinction; what they share is possibly stronger than their love for their families. Or maybe just so different they can't be compared.
(Actually, DBZ is a bad example for this, because seriously, as far as Saiyajin are concerned, there's no way sex ever compares to the thrill of battle. This is a race that started raising their kids in tubes rather than procreate. Goku and Vegeta aren't going to start screwing, because that'd be a step down from pounding each other to a pulp, when it comes to expression of true feelings or pleasure.)
There's also a difference in my mind between real rivals and, hmm, 'snarking partners', though I'm not sure where the line is drawn. I've always had a fondness for that kind of loudly protested romance, as B/V is often portrayed or how Ranma & Akane go at it. But it doesn't have quite the same feel as a rivalry, to me; there's still an underlying respect, but the quality is different. It's somehow not as sincere a tension? The snark is less honestly meant, is more a special way of communicating. Like it's something that the pair has worked out, has have come to an understanding about in order to strengthen the relationship, as opposed to a genuine conflict that should be embraced because it makes both stronger. Now I'm wondering if that's why you are fonder of ZoSan than me, because I see them as closer to real rivals, and you see them more as snarking partners? Though really I see them more that way too...never mind, my non-ZoSan tendencies are rooted in my anti-OP-pairing tendencies. Forget that, they'll just confused the issue.)
the definitive impact of that person on your life
Really, when it comes down to, that's what draws me to relationships, period. I just don't always have any urge or desire to see that feeling expressed as romantic/sexual love...
no subject
Date: 2005-07-01 07:27 am (UTC)However that is not why I posted.
I'm worriexd about your fic Summertime that Static slash you did. It is absolutly excellent yet we haven't seen an update in an over two weeks. So I took it upon myself to hunt you down. (by the way if you are wondering why their might not be enough comments on your screen it is 'cause the comment section on fanfic is messed up at the moment)PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE update!!!
no subject
Date: 2005-07-01 03:20 pm (UTC)As far as Summertime goes - sadly enough, 2 weeks for me is a pretty short period. I can be an annoyingly slow writer, some of my stories go months or more between updates ^^; That being said, I actually have the draft of that fic completed, I just need to finish editing it! I will be posting the last chapter soon, hope you enjoy it!
no subject
Date: 2005-07-01 11:28 am (UTC)Like
With Zoro/Sanji, I can see them being caring and careful with eachother at times, when the situation is down to the bare bones (like in Jess's recent H/C drabble, literally), but then again that may be because they already harbor intense love for one another, just as all the nakama do for all the other nakama. When those two openly express that caring, it can often be more poignant than if it, were, say, Luffy and Usopp, because Zoro and Sanji are both so proud and are, in fact, some kind of rivals. I find it interesting that you said Zoro lives for the fight while Sanji doesn't, because I had never thought of it that way. This may be why many consider Sanji more the "woman" or uke in the relationship, but for me, something like that in writing turns me off intensely. If someone's writing Z/S to please yours truly, they still give Sanji his very active emotions, his charm, and his slight silliness and girlyness, but they also recognize that Sanji is a young man, a proud young man, who is in fact very masculine, strong, and stubborn. Seme!Sanji may possibly be one of the hottest things in the universe, next to Gojyo simply existing. Zoro is commonly considered to be stronger and a superior fighter to Sanji, which saddens me because I don't agree, but this can become an outlet for a new kind of victory for him: a win in the bedroom. Sanji seems to me like he would be infinitely more talented in the ways of the flesh than simple, unsensual Zoro, who would go straight for the big O, do not stop, do not collect 200 beri.
The situation could be turned around to be very erotic with them while still keeping Sanji in the uke position. Gays often say that the bottom is the true position of control, and the element of surprise could be turned on Zoro when he insists on taking top but becomes dominated by Sanji anyway.
The third turn-on option for me applies to Sanjixthe whole crew. It seems to me (although perhaps I look WAY too deeply into these people's characters...) that it makes Sanji incredibly happy to serve. He finds immense joy in feeding the hungry, attending the needy, guarding the unsafe, defending the helpless. He likes to feel useful, he likes to feel needed, because he himself is emotionally needy. When this translates to sex, it can be turned into almost a submissive role as opposed to an uke role (I find them to be completely different). Living to serve his partner, he worships his or her body, minimizing his own pleasure and maximizing his partner's. When it comes to penetration, it will be whatever they prefer. This treatment would probably be reserved to those he admires, respects, cares about, because to Sanji, everyone close to him is a huge role-model (especially women). I am entranced by Dom/Sub, it's incredibly erotic to me, so maybe this whole thing is just me. o_O
Alrighty, so that turned into a Sexuality of Sanji lecture. Back to the original subject.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-01 11:29 am (UTC)Many consider Kyo/Yuki to be a great rivalry pairing, but that's one of them where I have to draw the line. They REALLY. TRULY. HATE EACHOTHER. They feel little or no camaraderie, they could live without eachother, and Yuki reminds Kyo constantly of his horrid, sub-human oppression by Akito.
I forget what my original point was. Damn.
I think it was this: I agree. And I love your writing.
I told you that you were the one who got me into OP, didn't I?
I think I'm done now. I need write more of my Robin/Nami. The one I don't have a plot for.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-01 03:35 pm (UTC)The difference between Sanji and Zoro is that for Sanji, fighting is a means to an end - protecting loved ones, proving himself, etc. While as for Zoro, fighting *is* the end, the battle, and being victorious in battle, is the goal of his entire life. Zoro's role on the ship is fighter, as Sanji's is cook, according to the char blurbs at the beginning of the manga (and there is no official first mate, despite fanon traditionally assigning Zoro the role.)
And oh damn, yes, seme Sanji = teh pure sex. I can't stand him getting girlified, either personality-wise in fiction or visually in doujinshi. If it weren't One Piece he'd so be topping anyone. It's just that in OP, compared to his crewmates, he's the closest you get to a limp-wristed prettyboy bishounen! And his drive to serve, yes, it would be fascinating to see that play out in the bedroom setting. (Also, totally right that bottom =/= submissive =/= uke. But that's a topic for another discussion. A looong one.) If I put Zoro on top, it's mostly because I find the idea of super!sex!god!Zoro to be...hysterically funny. Of course he doesn't care about sex! He's so good at it that there's no challenge!
I actually have seen Slayers (1st 2 seasons, anyway), but I'm afraid I didn't go for Xellos/Zelgadis...and Xellos didn't seem to consider Zel as a rival, being Mazoku (...umm, if that was the word? it's been a few years) he was a bit out of Zel's league? Though that was just my impression, I'm not familiar enough with it for a full analysis. In all honesty Slayers is another of those team series that I'd prolly prefer gen friendshipping to anything else, because they were a cute gang. (...okay, and I liked Lina/Gourry. Though trying to read *romance* with them would likely cause my brain to explode)
38 is only truly depressing to Gojyo fans, I think. To us, however, it's about the worst thing you can do, because Gojyo would seriously just die. It's the only way to make it work. ;_;
Yuki & Kyou...hmm. I need to read the FB manga. In the anime they seemed very rival-ry, coming to an understanding at the end, and I ended up totally OT3ing them. But I've heard several folks argue otherwise...
Scryed I need to see. The bro told me I'd like it, he's usually right about these things.
And Robin/Nami!! Much with the squee ^__^ no rivals there, because Nami fully knows Robin pwns all. Just mmmmm. (...I should sue Oda for making me gay. Robin has no right being that hot.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-01 09:28 pm (UTC)What I love about you is that instead of complaining that there's no good gen and doing nothing about it, you PRODUCE it. Augh. My HERO. And you will always be my hero for getting me into OP. I had always read your Saiyuki fiction like it was crack, and one day I saw a new series on my X-parrot alerts: One Piece. Hmmmm. I'll have you know that I read Seven Deaths in its entirety without knowing who ANY of the characters were and then immediately spent three solid days reading from OP chapter one to the most recently released that week. That is how deeply I was entranced by your characterization. Just thought you should know.
Girlified Sanji = whoah I am barfing. Coincidentally, he's only stupid and girly around GIRLS... but seriously, he's such a man. Rawr. I completely agree that if it were any cast other than the OP cast (or Gojyo, AKA The Seme) Sanji would be topping like whipped cream and sprinkles. Such a man.
And his drive to serve, yes, it would be fascinating to see that play out in the bedroom setting.
Perhaps I'll have to write that for you. ^_~ I also happen to think that a similar submissive role would feel natural to Zoro when it comes to Luffy. Verrrrry interesting. However, Sanji slips so easily for me into a worshipful, servile, sensual and erotic lover that I really may have to be writing some of that soon.
Awww, Xel/Zel was my first yaoi OTP. XD Xelloss is quite an enigma... and I can't see him being truly friends with any of the Slayers aside from Zelgadis, because the rest of them lack a darker side that can lend itself to attempting to understand the nature of a higher-level mazoku. Zelgadis amuses Xelloss as much as Lina does, but in a different way. The feel between them is unique, and the Zelgadis-torture possibilities are endless. Xelloss's entirely exotic love for sadomasochism has made him one of my all-time favorite characters, and even when not connected to Zelgadis or any other main character (or any other character at all), it is just an amazing facet to explore. You really get to see Xelloss's sadistic side come out hardcore in SlayersTRY, when he becomes entirely gleeful, firey, expressive, and excited as he tortures the dragon-mazoku Valgaav. What can one say, a higher-level mazoku adores pain in every form.
38 is the pits. If it happened, Gojyo would just waste away, and that would be the end of it. He would just die. I am a Gojyo fan more than ANYTHING, and I just can't stand the total sacrifice of him that 38 requires. It's a pairing that is selfish and doesn't take the whole team into consideration. Even Goku would be heartbroken. Not like Gojyo would be, though.... especially losing to Sanzo like that.
The Furuba anime is SO fucking sugarcoated. The manga is about three times as long as that already, too. I think the anime ended (with a false ending) sometime during book 5. The manga is on something like book 16 now. I dislike Tohru enough to stick her with Yuki any day. The way I see it, Yuki needs specifically Tohru to make him feel like a good person, while Kyo, in my opinion, does not. I'm not a big fan of that particular OT3. THE MABUDACHI TRIO, ON THE OTHER HAND..... *drools* My Aya~~~
Scryed is a work of art.
If I hadn't been gay before One Piece, Nami and Robin would have made me that way. DAMN. I'm still going to give respect to Nami in this relationship, because I think she deserves it, and it's one of the issues that Robin is going to have to confront: I'm admiring an EIGHTEEN-YEAR-OLD. Yes, Robin, live with it. You're 28 and you're jaded and you're "alone" and you're doomed and blah blah blah and a gorgeous 18-year old woman is in love with you, and she is not stupid. WHAT NOW.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-19 08:06 am (UTC)To me, it's all a matter of what I'm in the mood for. I tend to crave a certain kind of fic, so sometimes a quick rivals sparking and snarling and pushing eachother to the mattress and biting and Angry!sex is really nice.
And sometimes it's good to read something really angsty and bawl my eyes out.
Most different 'flavors' of fic have their own appeal. I love best-friends-becoming-lovers like Ban and Ginji, or Virgil and Richie, but at the same time I love it when an author can convince me that rivals or non-friendly characters could have a relationship.
Like I've found a little Virgil/Richie/Hotstreak slash, and I think with the right author ready to tackle the whole complex relationship, it could be done really well.
I think the biggest drawback in rivalslash, which you didn't mention, is the tendancy for a fandom to start to take a rival pairing for granted. They don't bother to explain how they go from rivals (either friendly or unfriendly) to lovers because DUH, everyone knows hate is only a thin line from love and all that, so of course when they say "I hate you" they mean "Do me!" Isn't it obvious?
I hate that. To me, the biggest draw about rivalslash is that they've got these big glaring Issues, and you're going to have to convince me that they can work through them.
I am also most guilty of being the Anti-OTP, while I'll admit to having favorites, I'm happy to read most any pairing so long as it's well written and a fun read. So... I love Ginji x Ban very much, but if a writer I knew was very good came out with... oh Ban x Kazuki, I'd probably read and enjoy.
Same as I'll check out a series if a writer I know writes something for it. Which is why I've been on a Static Shock kick lately ^_^ Browsed right from your Getbackers fic to Summertime and got hooked.
no subject
Date: 2005-07-24 04:28 am (UTC)I don't actually read much rivalslash, so I haven't noticed much of fandoms entirely ignoring a rivalry and just writing them as pairings, though man, that would frustrate the hell out of me if I was reading it. Isn't the point of pairing rivals the fun of getting them to figure out their feelings? --admittedly, there's plenty of doujinshi that do this, because they don't have enough pages to bother with the working through so just skip straight to the pretty boys boinking. But then I find most dj very pretty but don't think of them as actually being the chars I like anyway. When it comes to reading fic I usually prefer something more IC.
I'm erratically OTP. Some series I'll only read one set of pairings no matter what, some I'll read some combinations but refuse to read others, and some I'll read anything that's good. Though the last tends to be fandoms that I don't really care to 'ship at all, and end up reading pairings just because they're what's there. One of my biggest problems with, er, being a fangirl, is that I love gen. And no one writes it these days. Very tragic.
There is good Static Shock fic out there, though! And V/R is pretty close to OTP for me, so...yeah, them, I don't crave gen. I was most surprised to peek at ff.net and discover readable SS fic existed. After waiting so many years I'd near given up hope it ever would...
no subject
Date: 2005-08-01 03:32 pm (UTC)Anyway, this pretty much describes me to a "T" -- I have nothing against slash, but I tend to veer away from slash of my favorite rival pairings (and my OTP friendships, as well) because I like the relationship better the way it is. Adding sex to the mix inevitably changes the dynamic and usually not, in this one reader's opinion, for the better.
I never could really figure it out because many of the rival/friend/enemy pairings that I adore have all the hallmarks of a classic romantic relationship of the "Romancing the Stone" type -- characters who start out hating each other and bicker constantly, only to have a core of mutual affection grow underneath it. In a romantic situation, that sort of thing usually drives me crazy. I generally dislike bickering couples in TV, movies and comics. (With certain exceptions -- I love Bulma/Vegeta, for example.) But give me a bickering pair of GUYS, and I'm all over that. And, I'm perfectly fine with bickery slashy subtext when it's in the original (e.g. Eroica *drools*). But when that sexual element is added to the relationships between Goku & Vegeta, or Yusuke & Kuwabara, etc, it seems to lose a lot of what originally appealed to me about the character dynamic. Expressing your deep-down affection for somebody by beating them to a pulp or casually saving their life and then pretending you didn't mean to do it is TOTALLY different from expressing it by having sex with them. I guess, sex to me implies a level of tenderness that is not usually found in these sorts of relationships, or at least not sustained for that long. Sex without tenderness is a power struggle at best, rape at worst. In sex you have to give as much as you take.
Usually the rival characters that I like are both very strong, very masculine individuals, and neither one of them is likely to fall into a nurturing role in a relationship. Maybe that's why I like seeing really masculine characters paired off with nurturing ones (e.g. Kuwabara/Yukina or Shido/Madoka) because it balances the relationship. With the rival relationships, though, both people are forceful and domineering personalities, or the dynamic wouldn't work. Neither one seems particularly capable of maintaining the level of "give" that is necessary for MY idea of a healthy sexual relationship.
Maybe that's why I can see friend slash (e.g. Gojyo/Hakkai -- which very nearly *is* canon -- or Jounouchi/Yugi) much more easily than rival or enemy slash. Where the nurturing element is already there, I actually *could* see it slipping over into romance, given a suitable situation. (I still usually prefer friendship in this cases too, maybe because it seems like expressing love as sex is taking the easy way out -- it's harder yet more rewarding, for me, to walk the line between. But at least there I can *see* it, which isn't really the case with rival slash.)
no subject
Date: 2005-08-22 12:55 am (UTC)And this probably does contribute to our tastes for one another's fic, though it helps that you can write. Did I mention a couple months ago I experienced a resurgence in my DBZ affections, went and reread all the manga and then went and reread all your fic? mm, good stuff ^_^
I often enjoy the bickering couple 'Romancing the Stone'/Han & Leia style 'ship myself, but it comes from a fundamentally different place than most rivals - all those relationships are intended from the start to become romantic (as almost all close male-female relationships are traditionally 'supposed' to do, grrrr. Except in a lot of kids' shounen, which tend to sidestep the majority of romantic possibilities altogether in favor of friendship. Much love for shounen.)
So I don't mind it in canon, but turning a relationship that isn't going that way to that direction can irk. Because, as you said, it's such a drastic change - the tenderness aspect, yes. I was discussing in some the comments about how there's a certain level of, hmm, submission needed to make a relationship work (though which direction it goes can be questioned; who's weaker, when the strong guy can be whipped by a single word?) and that submission creates a power imbalance that upsets the equality of a rivalry. (As a side note - Shido/Madoka and Kuwabara/Yukino, awww. Love both pairs. I'm not that interested in reading or writing fic about such sugar-sweet romance, but I eat it up like candy in the canon itself. If that makes sense.) Eroica falls somewhere in the middle, I suppose, because it's so permanently UST - I'm not sure how an actual relationship would work between them, it's not like either the Major or the Earl would ever give an inch (without taking it somewhere else, at least) --then again, I'm reading Eroica less for the slash and more because it's one of the funniest things I have ever read. The outrageous gay-ity is just a bonus!
Friend-slash for me is very much on a case-by-case basis; sometimes I can't see it any other way (Gojyo is in love with Hakkai, that's canon! Um, nearly! Dammit!), sometimes it depends on how it's done (I don't think Daniel and Jack would ever actually get together, but they can be awful cute), and sometimes I'd just as soon keep them "only" friends (I haven't found enough of any Yugi-Jou relationship stories to truly test my tastes, but for whatever reasons Jounouchi comes across as really straight to me. --so stop pairing him with Kaiba! Who he hates! And who is asexual anyway! Kaiba doesn't like boys or girls! Kaiba doesn't like people! Damn fangirls... >_>) And I admit that due to the bias towards pairings in all fic, some friendship pairings I read less because I want to see them shacking up with each other, and more because I don't want to read about them shacking up with anyone else...
no subject
Date: 2005-08-21 04:29 pm (UTC)That said, I think the reason I see them working is because so much of their rivalry is about, as Yami says at Alcatraz, their bringing out the best in each other -- as people. There is a real sense that neither will settle for the other being less than they can be -- and that goes beyond the dueling field. Like if Yami teaches Kaiba something about accepting his past (and by extension himself) at Alcatraz, and about the futility of trying to use anger to sdestroy his hatred -- Kaiba in his duel with Isis teaches Yami, who is so focused on his past -- that everyone has a responsibility to create their own future. It is this sense that their rivaly is really an expression of their caring, that for me can turn rival/slash into a OTP.
no subject
Date: 2005-08-22 01:16 am (UTC)When it comes down to it, I personally think Kaiba isn't ready for any kind of romantic relationship. He's still damaged emotionally; his heart needs to be whole before he can truly share it with someone else (I think he wasn't actually done the puzzle of his heart when the Blue Eyes and Mokuba's need called him back during Duelist Kingdon. Maybe Yami needs to put him under again for another few months ^^) But that's just my take, and I'll fully admit that I'm influenced by being more interested in Kaiba's personal (+ a little brother) journey to redemption than any pairing...(I'm terrible at being yaoi fangirl sometimes!)
--also, I have to say, I just squeaked aloud when I saw you'd reviewed my fic. *So* glad you enjoyed the stories - it always excites me when an author I admire likes my stuff, especially one who's influenced my own take on the characters (there's a couple things in your fic I have to consciously remind myself *aren't* canon, they ring so true). and since you write about the best Mokuba I've seen, am especially glad you liked my take on him ^___^
Nenya (not logged in)
Date: 2005-08-23 12:33 pm (UTC)Thank you! It's funny -- I try to write what I think of as false canon -- that is I want to confuse people as to what actually happened and what is my own invention. An odd ambition (possibly). At the risk of sounding like a mutual admiration society, I thought Closing Day was one of the best Mokubas I'd ever read -- I've been recommending it like mad. I'm also really into the time travel story, although my sympathies go out to anyone else misguided enough to take on the idea of time travel and all the complications. (That's a joke -- I'm impressed at how well you wove all the necessary explanations in, and love the image of Kaiba standing in the street laughing when he realizes he's succeeded.)
Anyway, on vacation with possibly limited Internet access, looking forward to reading more...
Re: Nenya (not logged in)
Date: 2005-08-25 08:51 pm (UTC)You do a very good job of intertwining the canons, and with your own additions. Kaiba as motorcycle freak, and artistic inventor; the reason he always wears long sleeves - I have to remind myself that's 'your' Kaiba, not actually the 'real' one ^^
And gah, yes, time travel can give one quite a headache ^^; which is why I kept "Scenario" reasonably short. Except my sis and I got to plotting again, and came up with an even more complicated idea, involving an entire AU universe intersecting with the regular one. I happened to mention to her that I wanted Yugi-tachi to have the opportunity to understand why Kaiba is the way he is - one thing that annoys me about the anime's Noa arc is that they witness some of what screwed Kaiba up so badly, but it doesn't seem to give them any sympathy for him, which I just don't buy. So I was wondering what would happen if they got to meet a Seto without Gozaburo's influence, from a universe where his real father never died...except then we started postulating more about said universe, and what would have happened if Kaiba Gozaburo had gotten a different heir. One thing about Kaiba that I don't see mentioned much is that from what little evidence we get of the past, Seto wasn't just an okay kid - he was an exceptionally bright and altruistic child (a 10 year old, dealing with his own hardships by vowing to make other children happy?) If Gozaburo's 'training' was enough to twist that Seto into the borderline psychopathic Kaiba we know and love, what might it have done to a boy who had much darkness in his heart already - and what might that mean for the rest of the world...
no subject
Date: 2005-09-17 09:56 am (UTC)First off let me fangirl you. INTELLIGENT YGO FAN OMG! Do you write it? I've been out of the YGO fandom for months now because the state of it made me weep, but it will always hold a place in my heart. It was my first large, long-lasting, and yaoi fandom :D Your Seto x
JouRa icon makes me smile. And, uh *waves Seto/Otogi banner XD*Actually, thoughout the whole essay, I was thinking "What about Shindou/Touya of HikaGo?"
But I'll get to that later.
I think it's a case by case definition -- and the main problem is that fangirls lack the ablity to tell strong emotions and "love" apart. They place all strong emotion as twoo wuv and make them fuck like bunnies and run off in the sunset to get married and have physically impossible assbabies.
Though I blame the English language, it's hard to break up the definition of "love" and "like" without making it clunky and ungraceful and going on for paragraph after paragraph "I don't like her, I likelike her" -- (also, a double negative).
Some pairings grow and change, the rivalry aspects may still be there on
But then the rivalship has turned into a romantic relationship. It is very hard for them to coexist as one -- if you're dating a person, they you are not supposed to wanting to better them, no? Even if rivalries do have a large amount of passion, often sexual passion, but that does not mean they could ever sustain a relationship.
And as for rivalries and psuedo-rivalries --
Tsuzuki and Hisoka were rather rivalish for all of, oh two seconds. Seriously, though, some pairings which are deemed "romantic" keep rivalry aspects.
Gaara & Naruto aren't true rivals, the same can be said for Sasuke & Naruto (while Sasuke & Gaara are rivals to at least a slight extent.) as well as Neji & Naruto. They all have, or have had elements of rivalship, but it has grown past that point and could possibly, with imagination and fandom rights, be placed in a relationship status.
In Tenipuri, Tezuka & Fuji were called "Eternal Rivals" in the (end) anime, but that's more fitting to Tezuka & Atobe. (But then, EVERYONE is Tezuka's rival for he is GOD and everyone must give him slashy rival looks (tm) and stalk him) They have aspects of rivalry, the intensity, that they seem to pass around the actual classification. (Actual, there is no classification for Tezuka & Fuji, they aren't really that close of friends, they are really rivals, they just *are*)
But they are also capable of having calm, even domestic talks and can work together quite well. Fuji's goal isn't beating Tezuka -- For most of the series Fuji doesn't exactly have a goal. Perhaps his goal at the moment is to become strogner, find passion and become serious about something (thus, his goal is to find a goal) Tezuka's goal is to inspire and take his team to victory, his own strength is a far less goal in itself, he turns down scholorships to stay for the team.
I'd say what sets Tezuka & Fuji and makes them *not* true rivals is that they don't wish
there's the tension, that they are in the top of Seigaku for power, (intelligence, as well),
there always is a sense they know each other's strength and closely guard it, but it isn't just fixated on that strength.
(And I should stop here, before I start essaying. For it will be long and I will drag out every conversation they ever had in the manga. I am a shameless fangirl ♥)
[gah, over the word count]
no subject
Date: 2005-09-17 09:59 am (UTC)and "Can they even sustain a relationship beyond the thing they are rivals over?" Whether it's a girl (Honda & Otogi from YGO), a game (insert SJ anime here), or even a side, or fighting prowess (Kenshin & Aoshi, anyone?) if the fact which the show is about is their only connection and the only thing in common, then there's slim to none chance of it ever going beyond that.
And if that goal is attained, will the relations even still be? If the one rival can suceed over the other, and then the other decides to go on and become like the other, it is still a fixation - almost a fetish, even. It is in the place of actual emotional intimacy
And there is nothing *wrong* with that, just that is does not equal twoo wuv. Maybe playing tennis or sword fighting is just as much of a turn on as any amount of dating or even physical touching could ever do, because for them it is like a sexual act personified by whatever avatar they put their passions into.
(Like in Girl on the Bridge where knife-throwing became almost like a substitute for sexual relations between the two - that was how their relationship played out, that *was* their relationship all in one. )
Rivalship and Rivalslash can actually exist a a relationship - but it's either not particularly romantic (and there are all kinds, indeed) or it filters down into less intense way, or veers of the 'fixation' of rivalship.
Perhaps if they become passionate about *each other* and not the facet which they wish to attain and beat, then it can become an actual, even, dare I say, romantic love. It'd always have a hard edge to it, but it *is* possible.
And you should get into PoT! If nothing else, it'll give your rivalslash views a different view ;D
And if you aren't already, get into HikaGo. It pushes Rivalship and rivalslash to the utter limits. I honestly *try* to be rational and say that just because character A is obsessed with character B it doesn't have to be romantic, but the level of intensity they have is just holy shit. It'll make you think twice because of the utter level they are obsessed with each other.
And uh, if this is incoherent, blame that the pain killers are wearing off and it's rather late ;;
no subject
Date: 2005-09-20 03:11 pm (UTC)And it does depend on the rival pair in question - I'm a mild SasuNaru fan myself, though like you said, they're not exactly true rivals. And good point that building a future relationship depends partly on what they're rivals over, and the intensity of the obsession, and what other things they have in common. And also, perhaps, what other relationships they have - I think there's a fangirl trait as well to focus on one relationship to the exclusion of others, as if someone can only have one person in their lives. A man can have a wife, a child, a best friend, and a rival, and have them all be important to him, all part of what makes him who he is...
There's also, for me, some times I think a romantic relationship could potentially work between two chars; I just don't have any interest in reading it...personal tastes, like I said, and mine are a little odd ^^;
Prince of Tennis, eheh, I've had several people try to get me into it...part of my problem is that I really don't like sports or sports manga (they bore me...yeah, and card games bore me too, but at least in YGO they're risking lives/souls a lot of the time ^^;) and partly that I really don't need a new fandom right now...I also have yet to get into HikaGo for similar reasons. Someday, maybe ^^;;
--and YGO, yep, I'm in it, and I am writing fic for it, though I should warn you it's not yaoi (or het) - it's all gen, and all Kaiba-focused (I think of Kaiba as an asexual and am more concerned with fooling with all his Issues than putting him in the sack with anyone. the boy's got so many delightful buttons to push...!)