xparrot: Chopper reading (lex - villain)
[personal profile] xparrot
I've been getting some really thought-provoking comments on the last rant on this, enough to want to compose a follow-up to place the blame where it really belongs. It's not really Clark, asshat or not. It's poor writing.

I said before that "Asylum" was Lex's most tragic moment, for being his most noble. The first time I read the recap of "Asylum" I was furious at Clark. But watching the episode itself, I honestly don't blame him. It's an incredibly tough position he's in. He knows firsthand how dangerous Lionel is, so much so that he's not sure how to save Lex from him; he's grateful that Lex's brain didn't get totally fried, and terrified that next time it might be, or worse. Not to mention, he's only 16 or 17 years old, and mental illness is scary. Especially when it's your cool, reliable, older friend who has always only ever been in control of every situation. Even knowing Lex's psychosis was initially drug-induced, it's still beyond Clark's understanding, beyond the limits of even his strengths. I honestly believe Clark doesn't tell Lex about those lost seven weeks then because he's worried about Lex, and not his secrets at all.

"Memoria", though, is pretty unforgivable. Going to Lionel, fully knowing what Lionel did to Lex before, what Lionel's love for his son means in practice...it doesn't even make sense. Except that Clark Kent has apparently read the comic books like everyone else, and knows Lex is doomed to be his enemy.

Ultimately? The biggest tragedy of Lex is that the SV writers wrote themselves into a corner. In the very beginning, having rewatched the pilot, they wrote Lex quite ambiguous - maybe he was a sincere friend, or maybe he was just using people, seducing them for his own ends. But then they made it clear that Lex's feelings went far beyond slick sociopathic manipulation, and ultimately damned themselves.

There was a way out, and I don't know why they didn't take it. "Memoria" is a crux already. The shocking revelations about Julian's death pretty much cement Lex's place as victim as much as perpetrator of his future crimes: abuse victims become abusers themselves, it's not moral as much as psychological, and after enduring the childhood implied by Lillian's murder, it's frankly amazing that Lex turned out as well as he did.

Instead of that confession, what if the episode had gone completely differently? By the end of third season, it would have been reasonable for the good Lex of the earlier series to start slipping down into the darkness that is destined to claim him. So what if Lex had regained his memories of Clark and his powers - and had turned on him? Had pulled an Onyx!Lex and sought to get control over Clark, had threatened blackmail or exposure or worse? And then at the episode's end he could have lost the memories again, returned to the status quo none the wiser - but Clark would have been, and we viewers as well.

Then Clark's reluctance to ever tell Lex the truth would make sense. Then Clark rejecting Lex's friendship at the end of season 3, and tentatively accepting it back in season 4, would have been an act of great, if foolish, generosity, wanting to believe in Lex even knowing better. Not the smartest thing to do, but the right thing to do, as a friend.

And yes, it would have made Lex a far less sympathetic character - but he's the villain. You're not supposed to sympathize with him that much, certainly not at the hero's expense. And every time Clark lies to Lex afterward, it would have been justified. Maybe not totally right - it's still lying - but understandable.

But the writers didn't do this. I guess they couldn't do it. Because even as late as third season, it wouldn't have been in character for the Lex Luthor they had been writing, the Lex Luthor who risks or offers anything for his friends, the Lex Luthor who suffers guilt to the point of recklessness, who would instantly exchange himself for a roomful of hostages, who would test an experimental cure on himself rather than risk someone else under his care dying. The Lex Luthor who knows his self-proclaimed best friend is lying to him, and yet still is willing to throw all his questions away for the sake of that friendship. This Lex, you can't see betraying Clark, not at that point in the series, not for any reason. Having written this Lex, they had no choice but to write Clark as inexplicably petty and selfish with his secrets as he is, or else they never would have been able to fulfill the demands of comic-book destiny. They developed a Lex Luthor with such a strong or desperate heart that he would not walk away from Clark Kent - and left themselves no choice but to write a Superman who would walk away from Lex Luthor, even when he reaches out for help.

Date: 2007-01-23 05:22 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (lex - villain)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Yeah, they definitely are stringing along the emotions of the audience with Lex. And I can't fault them for that; villains and anti-heroes in shades-of-gray are terribly appealing. But they could've made Lex a little more evil, and Clark a little less asshat-ish...or stupid. Yeah, the other way to interpret most of what Clark does is to think he's so dumb he can't see how he's hurting people with his lies. Which is in some ways the more satisfying explanation; a hero who's well-meaning but not too bright is still more heroic than one who's petty and selfish.

And agreed, that flaws make any char interesting. Though I admit to having a fascination with Superman-as-ideal, and what that means when set on the base of a human being (or reasonable facsimile thereof). But Clark as shown in SV doesn't even suffer for his flaws - he doesn't seem that hurt by losing Lex's friendship, for instance - and that's just frustrating.

Date: 2007-01-23 05:52 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yma2.livejournal.com
I think that last point is the one I really agree with. I would like to see that element of regret, from either Clark or Lex, and from what I've seen of the sixth season that just doesn't seem to be there.
Although, for reasons beyond my comprehension, Lyonal actually is becoming... er... nicer?
It's quite good in a way, as it's utterly swapping round teh cleche. I can't think of another example off hand where the Evil!Father is redeemed but is son sinks into evil.
I suppose I should commend SV for that, but for some reason I'm not quite sure..
Oh, a good (and spoiler-less) line in a recent ep..

Guy 1: I want a lawyer!'
Lex: And I want a ponytale, dissapoinment abounds.'

I can't imagine Lex with a ponytale...

Date: 2007-01-23 06:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com
This is strictly my own opinion; I have no special insight into what TPTB are planning. That said, however, I don't believe for a minute that Lionel Luthor is really 'good' now. I think he wants Clark under his thumb and Martha in his bed, and his best chance at getting both of those things is to convince Clark and Martha that he truly is reformed, that he has their best interests at heart. So he's playing a role, trying to look like a loyal and caring friend to the Kents, all the while planning who knows what kind of underhanded things. Lionel is evil; he has always been evil; he will always be evil. Of that, I have NO doubt.

Date: 2007-01-23 07:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yma2.livejournal.com
Mmm.. I'm not sure. You may be right. Then again... one of the things that is getting me into this show is actually the ambiguity of Lex and Lional. It's wonderfully well done I'll give them that, and I honestly can't tell whether or not he is reforming. I kind of hope he is, because it would make a delicious twist, but on the other hand you could well be right.
I honestly can't say.
I think it either helps, or doesn't help, that I'm really starting watching this show from the sixth season, which gives me a bit of a skewed vision.
It's leaving things very open, which is very entertaining.

Date: 2007-01-23 07:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com
Ah, Lex. I honestly don't see SV's Lex as 'evil' at all. He's obsessive, certainly, and capable of doing questionable things for the sake of what he sees as the greater good, but he's not a vicious, sadistic monster (like, say, Oliver Queen), no matter what some of the other SV characters might think.

Date: 2007-01-23 08:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yma2.livejournal.com
I think I'll agree with you there, but I'll also agree with X-Parrot in that the creators of SV are almost trying to make him that, which he's not. To be fair I think he's more than a little pragmatic, and could be vicious if need be, but I don't think he's neccesarally... evil.
He's just... driven to be great.
I'm not sure about Oliver Queen though, I don't actually mind him that much. I can't say he's ever going to be a favorite character any time soon, but he's OK.
Oh, and here's a vid for both you and X-parrot. It was recced by a friend and when I saw it... well, it made me start watching Smallville again. It's sorta Clex and it's VERY good.
http://obsessive24.imeem.com/video/rVnM7nZt/sv_change/?ct=glKh9x

Date: 2007-01-24 12:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com
I utterly LOATHE Oliver Queen (at least the one we've seen on SV). As we were shown in flashbacks, Queen has long been a sadistic monster who enjoyed preying on those weaker than himself (such as Lex and his friend Duncan back in their school days at Excelsior). After Duncan was killed, Oliver realized that people might finally come to see him as the monster he truly was, and the thought bruised his ego, so he decided to don a more 'heroic' image: he chose different victims -- people he could claim were 'evil' and deserved everything he might do to them -- and preyed upon them instead. He got the same thrill out of tormenting these new victims as he had out of tormenting the old ones, but now Oliver could openly villify his victims to public applause while stealing from them as the Green Arrow, and then -- since he had no need of the money himself -- he could turn over whatever he stole to charity and look like a 'good guy' in both his guises. In Queen's eyes, it's the perfect solution: he still gets to torture people, yet the more gullible sections of the public think he's a 'hero.' Frankly, I'm deeply relieved that the bastard is off the show. I just hope it's for good.

Date: 2007-01-24 12:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yma2.livejournal.com
Now you see, I don't get that at all. I think that, sure, he was a bit of a bastard when he was younger, and sure, he's got problems now, but I don't think he's a bad person any more. I think he's trying his best to do better.
He's never going to be one of my favorite characters but I don't have a problem with him.
Having said that I do very much see where you are coming from here. I don't agree, but that all just comes down to interpretation I guess.
It's interesting how two people can interpret a character so tottaly differently, don't you think?

Date: 2007-01-24 01:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com
It is interesting. So much is subjective.

Date: 2007-01-24 12:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com
Whoops! I meant to thank you for the link to the vid; it sounds interesting, and I look forward to watching it.

Date: 2007-01-24 03:37 am (UTC)
ext_3572: (lex - villain)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Lex is doing some naughty things now but no, fundamentally he's not evil. But then even Lex Luthor of the comic books or JLU is not entirely evil, at least not in the sociopathic sadistic way of, say, the Joker. He's a criminal, ruthless, arrogant, and utterly convinced that the ends justify any means, but he's not out to destroy the world or hurt people for the sake of hurting people. More amoral than unmoral. It sort of depends on one's definition of "evil." Lex himself doesn't cast himself as the villain, while the Joker does, and enjoys every minute of it. But then the tragedy of Lex always has been that he has the potential to be one of the greatest men - and heroes - in history, if only his motives were a little different...

I haven't seen any of 6th season except "Justice" so I can't comment on Oliver Queen - he was rather cute in that ep but I don't know anything about his char. (I'd worry that my opinion would be biased anyway, because I flipping adore Green Arrow in JLU; he's hysterical...!)

And eee, I love that vid! I've had it for a while, it's one of my faves. Isn't it gorgeous? I love the use of the comic book shots, they emphasize it all so tragically...

Date: 2007-01-24 03:56 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] yma2.livejournal.com
It is a great vid. Can you recommend me any more good vids? Ones that are accessable via stream-load if possible. I like watching AMVs but finding good ones is kinda like looking for needles in haystacks.

Green Arrow... I feel kinda meh about him. He's OK. Nothing to write home about. Justice was a good ep, but I'm getting tired of the 'Wow, this boy has a secret he won't share now I hate him!' Why is it always girls that pine after boys with Mysteroius Alter Ego's then get pissy when they're not around to have dinner with them or something. Do you see guys doing that?
Oooh, commitment! ::female swoon::
Sorry, I'm not an ultra feminist or anything, but that does annoy me a bit.
You are right, btw. The romance angle is Smallville's weakness, though I'm actually quite interested in what they're doing to Lana. She seems to be becoming evil, which is kinda fun.
I think villains, really good villains, come in two categories. 1: Utterly Irrideemably Evil, (AKA Joker (to an extent), Apocolypse, Zork, quite possibly Legato Bluesummers, Voldemort, ect...) and Evil With A cause So the could Almost be Good. (Lex, Magneto, Bakura (**arguably,** not sure about this one myself but...) Millions Knives, Snape, ect...)
Generally I find the latter category more interesting, though the former is fun too. But teh latter has more possiblity for character exploration. These tend to be the characters I'm interested in, anyway.
BTW, in case you're interested... I've written a entry in my LJ on character hatred, sort of inspired by Jakrar said. I'd be interested on your opinions, if you can spare them.
Thanks!

Date: 2007-01-24 06:07 am (UTC)
ext_3572: (kaibangst)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Ah, I've been d/ling vids like mad lately! ^^ A few not to be missed:
http://theclexfactor.livejournal.com/tag/vids If you haven't seen these, they're ummissable. I don't know how to describe them; they're fanfic and vids at once, using footage to tell their own (marvelously Clexy) story.
http://www.somedistantgalaxy.com/vidsindex.htm - you can look here. Especially look for vyperman7 (aka Ryan Deffley; he's got more here: http://superkain.net/?cat=3) - he does fantastic work, beautifully timed and active. And "Brothers by Destiny" is one of the most lovely Clex vids I know, even if he claims it's not slash.
http://community.livejournal.com/sv_vids/68857.html - for anything else, try here. It's like a Clex masterlist!
(and if you're looking for non-Clex...er, sorry. I'm very...singleminded ^^;)

I am proud to call myself a feminist, and the femme chars in SV...drive me up a wall. They pine and primp and barely have any purpose beyond their love lives, and they cannot move past those for anything. Chloe just annoys the hell out of me, because she's awesome and funny and smart, but will not let go of the Clark thing and that just strikes me as unbelievable. I don't know any girls myself who'd carry a torch (er, pardon the pun) for six years for a guy who continually strings them along, no matter how hot he may be. It's just pathetic. Platonic friendship, guys - yes, it can happen. And high school crushes rarely last past high school (thank god). Yargh. Blech.
*ahem* Sorry. Like I said. Drives me up a wall ^^;

Read your lj post! Interesting thoughts, I left my own there...

Date: 2007-01-24 03:47 am (UTC)
ext_3572: (lex - villain)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
I just wish the show creators had your certainty! One of my problems with Smallville is that I get the idea that TPTB never really think any of this through...later, they may well decide that Lionel's been evil and plotting all along (that's what I think, too) but I don't know if he's actually being written that way now or not. Either way, it drives me nuts that everyone is trusting him now, at least sort of, I mean, dudes, what has he done to deserve that trust? While as Lex did quite a damn lot and you never extended him as much courtesy. Grrrr.

They could be playing the "turned to the right side for love of a Good Woman" card with Lionel, though man, I hope not. I love my Lionel twisted and eeeevil, as Obi-wan would say. Though I think his feelings for Martha might be genuine. Which scares me, considering his love for his son is also genuine, and look what that meant for Lex...

--Ah, one last thought - TPTB might be making Lionel good solely to make Lex's murder of him more eeeeevil, when it actually happens. Which it has to eventually, right? The whole series's been leading to that ultimate Oedipal showdown...

Date: 2007-01-24 05:39 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com
Everyone being willing to trust Lionel drives me crazy, too -- especially since no one ever really gave Lex the benefit of the doubt, no matter how many favors he did, or lives he saved. *growls* Lex once complained that Jonathan never saw him as anything but a Luthor, and Jonathan snidely retorted that Lex had never given him reason to see him as anything else. What gets me is that this exchange took place AFTER the episode "Jitters," in which Lex risked his life to save a bunch of people, most of whom he didn't even know. Yet that wasn't enough to prove him worthy, according to the Great and Holy Jonathan Kent. *more growling* (Or have I ranted about that to you before?)

I'm pretty sure Lex will kill Lionel at some point in the series, and frankly I'm looking forward to it. TPTB will no doubt want it to look like an evil act, and Clark and everyone else will no doubt see it that way. I, however, will remember everything Lionel has done to Lex, and -- whatever the immediate circumstances might be -- I will see Lex killing his father as an act of justifiable self-defense, and I will absolutely cheer Lex on.

Date: 2007-01-24 06:25 am (UTC)
ext_3572: (resist)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
No comment on Jonathan Kent. I love the Kents, but I have this problem that my internal view of them is...inconsistent with what is shown on the show itself. But then they're inconsistent in the show itself; Jonathan does trust Lex, about half the time. "You'd've made one hell of a farmer." Really Jonathan suffers from a terrible case of screenwriter schizophrenia, in which in one ep he'll be stubborn but willing to change, and the next he'll be a total redneck asshole. Sigh.

What worries me is that killing Lionel might be the final straw for Lex. Once he sees himself as capable of, guilty of, patricide (however justified) he might decide that there are no lines left to cross. I don't know if you've ever read the Yu-Gi-Oh manga? My favorite char in that, Kaiba, is very much like Lex in a lot of ways, including suffering a stint as a deranged supervillain (though he's getting over it). But the primary catalyst for Kaiba going dark side was his "triumph" over his foster father - the CEO of KaibaCorp, who 'trained' Kaiba to be his heir by way of torture (I told you he & Lex had a lot in common). When Kaiba does a hostile takeover of the company, his father suicides, saying "This is what a loser deserves" - and thus turns Kaiba into exactly the heir he always wanted, an amoral monster whose only code is that losing equals death, and thus he will win at any cost. I fear that Lex killing Lionel, as just Lionel murdered his own parents, will in the end prove to be Lionel's final victory over his son...

Date: 2007-01-24 10:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jakrar.livejournal.com
I fear that Lex killing Lionel, just as Lionel murdered his own parents, will in the end prove to be Lionel's final victory over his son...

Mmmmm. You may be right (always assuming TPTB have as much sense as you're giving them credit for), but -- even if it costs him dearly to do it -- I can't help seeing Lex as far safer in a world without Lionel. (Physically, any way.) And with no one to help Lex stay in the light (as Clark might have, if he hadn't betrayed and abandoned Lex, over and over again), it may finally be that turning to the darkness will be Lex's only chance of survival. Poor baby....

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