GIP!

[xparrot]

Gratuitous Icon Post, just because naye told me to. Mainly so if anyone asks why I am crazy obsessed with Doctor Who I can point to it and say THERE, THIS IS WHY.

Also, if you're a fan and you're not watching the Dr. Who Confidentials, you probably should be, because they're all sorts of awesome. Not only is it fun to see how the special f/x are done and how scenes are filmed (that kind of stuff has always fascinated me), and it has all these great music videos (it's like they know that pop music would be inappropriate for the show itself, so instead they just stick all the oh-so-apropos songs in the Confidentials) but they've got loads of the writers and directors and actors talking about the show and analyzing the chars. And can I say I am mad in love with Russell T Davies, the man is brilliant and is hereby added to the list of writers who, should ever I meet them in person, I will drop to my knees before. And then, once their guard is down, I will spring up with my fork and knife and devour their brains. And then I too will be a genius! (Other notables include JMS, Neil Gaiman, and Kazuya Minekura. With Minekura-sensei I might eat her drawing hand as well. Oda-sensei is exempt because I believe the crack levels in his brain might be lethal for an ordinary human.)

In cross-fandom news: the thing about watching the Doctor Who specials is that it highlights the trouble with Smallville. I can't imagine the writers of SV showing so much care and understanding of their series, for the characters and the universe. DW is made by fans, people who grew up with the show and love it, are thrilled to be bringing it to a new generation, and you can feel that, watching the show. And the sad thing is, SV could have been like that. Superman is an American icon as Dr. Who is a British icon; there are plenty of differences (DW's canon is far more fixed, for one, despite its diversity) but there are people who love Superman, fanboys and girls who know the comics and are steeped in the myth and could have brought it to life with that kind of devotion. Maybe in the beginning, there were some people like that on SV's team, and they've just given up, I don't know. But it's a shame, to think of what it might've been, if TPTB behind it had cared the way DW's do.

Comments

[lukita.livejournal.com]

I'll fight you to eat Neil Gaiman's brain. =D

In the beginning you can see the love in SV, but then something happend and it just drifted apart. I'm not saying that every episode should be good, but I'm tagging Season 4 as the point SV broke.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Gaiman's brain is mine, I staked it out years ago! Get your own genius! XDDD

I don't know if SV ever felt quite as 'loved' as DW, but yeah, in the beginning it definitely had a better sense of people knowing what they were doing, and wanting to do it. And s4 does seem to be when they stopped giving a damn about sense or continuity...

[lukita.livejournal.com]

I guess there's no helping it, I'll just have to eat your brain after you become a genius. I r smrt. XD

[naye]

ICON LOVE x INFINITY. ♥

Just in case you hadn't noticed my love for it already. (Yay, I got a post!)

It does kind of make me want to take all of Smallville fandom and just hug you, while beating the writers with a stick, though. Because - yes. Smallville really could have been so much more, but. Ouch. That hurts in the bad way, not the good way you hurt when the show is breaking your heart with the characters and the story.

For TV, my pantheon is currently JMS, RTD and Joss Whedon. If I start adding writers and mangaka, it might grow a little, but not very much (but I want to expand it, just so I can include Minekura, who is a worthy goddess of Awesome). He's one of those people that make me happy just by existing, by being who they are and doing what they do. ♥ (You'd have a hard time getting to his brain, though! He's not exactly a small guy. If you've seen him with John Barrowman - who isn't small either - he's at least half a head taller...!)

And it amuses me greatly that you're pimping the Confidentials now, after asking for a choice few to download a few days ago. It's very much fun to say I TOLD YOU SO share the love. ♥ I squee over cool behind the scenes stuff - the guys in the Daleks and the people rigging David up over a cliff in the middle of the night and everything, it's fascinating! And the actors and writers having all this love for the show is just really filling and sweet icing on the cake. ♥

The vids. Oh, I love the vids. They're so much fun! And they really work like fanvids do - they find songs with fitting lyrics or themes, and then they do a montage. Except they have much easier access to raw materials, and can do fun stuff like keep voices and sound effects in, but leave the background music! Such a great idea. They're all such fanboys (and girls) over there. I love it.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

(I keep watching my own icon~! ^^)

Yeah, SV...the unrealized potential is the most frustrating part of so very many frustrating things...

And the Confidentials are very eeee! yes, yes, you told me so! ...really they're best because they're an excuse to see more of the eps, and then rewatch the eps. But the behind-the-scenes stuff is adorable, especially when you have people climbing into Daleks and all. I wanna get in a Dalek! ^^

The fanvids are also so very much fun. And help give it such a fann-y feel...(even if the first two songs used in the one for "42" freak me out because they were both used in that Clex FST I mentioned...! very odd coincidence, that... ^^)

[naye]

I'm collecting hug caps now. OH NOES. It's such a horrible burden, to have to watch all those scenes again...! XD

Whoever came up with the idea for the Confidentials deserves a medal, or something! I was using them to pace myself (hah!) as I was going through the series, and it's so much fun to watch them with the episode - but they're also fantastic on their own! I love watching them all pretty much bounce with excitement about how cool it is to be working with Doctor Who. Have you seen the ones for Army of Ghosts/Doomsday? Because that's when they're all going "Daleks vs Cybermen OMG SO COOL!!!!". (And I think that's when Noel - Mickey - climbs into a Dalek because it's there...)

Now I need to rewatch Confidentials, too... I haven't actually watched first season more than once! Well. Parts of it I've watched a lot more than that, but not the rest! So that'll be fun. ^_^

Fandoms that coincide - it means something, I tell you! XD

[aerynvala.livejournal.com]

there are people who love Superman, fanboys and girls who know the comics and are steeped in the myth and could have brought it to life with that kind of devotion.

Yes, precisely. It's very sad and utterly unnecessary. I mean, they wouldn't even have to be fanatical fans to have gotten it way better than they do. Hell, they could've just relied on Wikipedia and done a better job. /bitches bitterly

Still, those rare moments when it does bother to play in the actual Superman universe, it is brilliant.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's not that they'd have to be total comic book geeks, it's just that they'd have to care. And they don't.

From the beginning of the show, the cheesy moments and anvils that reference the future Superman have always entertained me. Though these days less so, because it feels like they've actually forgotten what the hero is supposed to become...

[yma2.livejournal.com]

I agree, I get a real sense of joy and passion from Doctor Who and, what's more, I also get the feeling that it's a lot darker, in some ways, than Smallville, which I like. It's a lot more intelectual.
The basic 'ideology' of Smallville is very black and white, which is godo in a way but also bad because it has this wonderfully grey character of Lex, who would work really, really, well in a slightly moraly ambiguous show. But because Smallville is about Superman, and thus to an extent, must be a very black and white show, Lex is made... er... evil. Which does't quite suit the character.
Erm... am I making sense here?
At any rate; Doctor who doesn't really have this problem. Yeah, it's a very positive show, yeah it's optomistic and hopeful and about this guy, this wonderfully humanitarian alien who's all about saving the world and who has this basic love and adoration for the human race. But at the same time it's about lonlieness, it's about the idea that, once you've experience so much, you'll never be the same again. It's about doing what has to be done, being that bit dark and that bit ruthless. It's about the idea that, for all it's beauty, Space does contain so much suffering and pain as well. And for all his humanitarion tendences the Doctor is still an alien, still alone, still utterly, completely and irredemably different.

Er... I'll stop ranting now...

I'd love to see some more of the Doctor Who confidentials, especially of this season, but I don't know where to watch them except from the short, five-ten minite vertions on the BBC website, which really isn't enough. So if you could tell me where I could pick them up from... especially if they're streamed...?

That said; if you have time do check out some of the audio commentaries on the BBC website. Especially those of Gridlock, Girl in the Fire Place and Family of Blood. They're very good and there's some interesting musings going on there.

Also, the more I hear David Tennant and Russel T Davis the more convinced I am that I want to hug them. Because they both actually come across as really nice blokes, especialy RTD.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

The thing is, SV could have been like that. SV had a fascinating premise, which they don't quite follow through on, of taking that simplistic comic world and giving it three dimensions. They took the iconic superhero and made him flesh and blood, made him a real person with flaws and weaknesses; likewise they took the villain and made him a human being, not black to the core but with potential for more, and reasons for being as he was.

Then they repudiated all that, or rather forgot about it, or stopped caring, or something. Switched over to soap operas and back to comic books, but the kernel is still there for more.

The trouble with SV is that it didn't integrate the real world with the comic book one well. Watching the Who Confidentials, the creators are always talking about humanizing the scifi, about making sure the reactions are human and real even when what's happening is not. SV rarely bothers to do this, rarely bothers to think out how people might really respond to the reality of something like a meteor freak. So the show rings false, plays like a comic book, instead of something believable...

You can d/l the confidentials here:
http://www.demonoid.com/files/download/HTTP/392139/32319927 (er, the link might not work if you need a log-in, let me know and I'll figure something out...) also try youtube, maybe? I've been downloading them, so...

And yeah, David Tennant comes across as a typical guy in interviews, but a nice guy - and a total Who-fanboy! He knows the names of all these old eps and monsters and things. ^^ And RTD is a fanboy of the especially analytical and thoughtful sort...

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

"SV could have been like that...if TPTB behind it had cared the way DW's do."

It is! It could have been brilliant if it hadn't wandered off into soap opera territory, and got stuck there.

But the worst danger for its integrity is its mushy moral centre, as I've ranted about before. If you're making a show about a comic book superhero, you must have a solid moral centre for the hero to work from, even if he or she wavers from that on occasion. In fact, he or she should waver on occasion, and be punished for it. Then he or she can angst about how they're not worthy to be a superhero, and decide to renounce superherodom, and be called back when a big disaster ensues, and so on.

On SV, for the most part, Clark sits around and mopes, and angsts about Lana, and decides that Lex is a villain on very little evidence, and seems incapable of thinking for himself, and the jump from this to being SUPERMAN is too much for me to contemplate.

You want to know what I foresee? At the end of the series, we'll be given incontrovertible evidence that Lex has gone completely Evil. Clark will make some big speech about how he's Seen The Light, and Heard The Call. He'll put on his Superman uniform and fly off to fight Evil, as embodied by Lex Luthor. And that's all wrong because it's a personal vendetta. I prefer to think of Superman as a little more heroic than that.

Just wanted to clarify...

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

... I cut the quote more than I'd realized. What I meant by "It is!", is that it's sad, as you said, that SV could have been as brilliant as DW. :-)))

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes! That's the thing, you can have realism and still have a strong moral center, they're not mutually exclusive. The unrealism comes when the heroes are always morally correct without any trouble or conflict or temptation. Heroes who have to struggle to achieve their heroism are both more realistic and more involving. But SV's Clark isn't even trying to be a hero...they're just making him one by default, because Lex is "evil".

The whole idea of Lex Luthor preceding Superman worries me a bit. I like the yin-yang of hero & villain, but when the villain in effect creates the hero, isn't that a little cart-before-the-horse-ing? The way it's heading now, the world should be grateful it has Lex Luthor, because without him there never would be a Superman!

[naye]

Why are you not asleep?! NEECHAN! It's bedtime for me! *worries*

I'll answer this + mail tomorrow. Need sleep now. Sleep, or capping of hugs... hmmm. Anyway. You. Sleep! Just... remember the interesting things your brain has to offer when you're not awake anymore. (Jealous!) *hugs*

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

because I leave for work in 2 minutes! am writing before I go! :P
g'night! ^__^

[naye]

Neechan crazy. ♥ Good luck; don't die! *hugs*

[littlehollyleaf.livejournal.com]

DW's canon is far more fixed, for one, despite its diversity

As a old!school fan I must point out- Blah! The idea of DW canon being fixed is actually rather amusing. There have been SO many continuity errors over the years, not to mention issues with time travel and paradoxes and mistakes about Gallifrey... and then there's the 100+ novels, which may or may not be taken as canon, plus the audio adventures, and the comics, and the novellas... really, DW canon is not fixed in any way. Superman canon and DW canon are fairly similar in that way :)

But I am a squeeful brit at your opinion of DW writers caring about their national icon better than the SV ones. Awww *hugs her country's DW writing team*

...Although, I personally have issues with RTD aka Rusty, because I've been known to disagree, quite a bit, with some of the directions he's taken the show in. He's actually influenced a fair bit by American shows like Buffy and Smallville (though he prefers Buffy apparently), and I think he's tried to make DW a bit too American, with the close close close up face shots and heavy, emphasised emotional moments (not to mention the 45min episode length, though these days there's not much you can do about that I suppose). And I'm still not entirely convinced this works with DW. But I guess that's my snobbish, old!school britishness coming out :p

Enough rant now. Sorry *blushes*

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

As always with this fandom, I defer to those with superior experience! But it seems that the DW canon is about as fixed as Star Trek's canon, which has all manner of continuity errors (The great Klingon makeover!) and the complication of novels and such, but they're all assumed to take place in more-or-less the same universe; we're on the Tenth Doctor, and the First Doctor was his first life. As opposed to Superman, which has been 'rebooted' several times, with history being entirely rewritten (the Kents are alive/dead/alive again; Lex Luthor is a mad scientist or a businessman, etc, etc.) to the point of the canonical multi-verses to explain the disaster!

As an American without much experience with British TV (mainly what BBC shows are brought over by PBS, what shows on Mystery! and Masterpiece Theater, mainly) I can't really judge RTD's American influence. Though it doesn't strike me as that much different from American shows, so I can see that point - it doesn't bother me because it's what I'm used to! (I do have to say that British actors are on average better than their American counterparts! Though I wonder if some of that is in how the shows are filmed; when watching the specials, it looks like many of the DW scenes are filmed all in one take, somewhat like a play, while American shows tend to be more piecemeal, film the wide shots and then reaction shots and then the f/x; I'd think the former method would be better for actors, if possibly more difficult to arrange...)

[littlehollyleaf.livejournal.com]

Fair point with the fixedness of the 1st-10th Doc. That certainly remains in a continuous line, as opposed to Superman's fluctuating histories... This is a more interesting debate than I first thought. Who's continuity IS more complex DW or Superman? :)

Rusty's actually mucked things up rather drastically with his Time War. Because no one understands what that's done exactly. Wiped out Gallifrey/Time Lords at a specific moment in time, or wiped them from history completely? Cos if it's the latter, then a lot of the Doc's past adventures must have been re-written, what with them involving Gallifrey and all... Blah! :p

And you really should stop staying things like 'British shows are more realistic and better acted' to me, it's sparking weird jingoistic notions within me! Eeek! I mean, I thought it was true before, but having someone from the US actually agreeing is likely to just make me big headed :p

Doesn't mean I don't still enjoy SV though, I will take any bad acting or ridiculous responses as endearing <3 That's what you have to do with a lot of old!school Who, especially when the sets start wobbling!

One thing I do love on American shows, is the title sequences, you know, with the (often cheesy) title music and all the characters' faces popping up and such. I was really hoping the new DW would adopt something like that, but they opted to stay with the swirling motif instead. Fair enough. But I like cool title sequences, they are pretty :)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I have a feeling someone is a Master fan XDDD

Hard to compare the complexity of continuities! In some ways DW's is more complex, because you have to (sort of) keep everything in mind, while with Superman you have the option of throwing out everything you don't like willy-nilly and only keeping the bits that work. On the other hand, to have a proper grasp of Superman one needs familiarity with all the canon (and it is over twenty years longer than DW's!) Heh, yes, a debate...!

I don't know that British shows are all more realistic - just in the case of DW vs SV, and SV is hardly a stellar example of good American TV! ^_^ But the acting in the British shows I've seen does tend to be a cut above. (I was going to argue Battlestar Galactica for acting, and then recalled half that cast are Brits anyway. ^^; Though Mary McDonnell and Edward James Olmos are ours, and I will claim them proudly! XD)

Hey, I'm a Trekkie going back to TOS - I live on cheese! Cardboard sets and the incredible performances of William Shatner! I'm terribly tempted to watch some old-school Who, just for the experience XD

[littlehollyleaf.livejournal.com]

Just one more thing actually :p - You mention in reply to someone else how Doctor Who writers etc always try to give a human/realistic reaction to things and aren't so comic book like in their portrayal. Well, to be fair to the SV team, they ARE making a show based on a comic, so there will be the tendency for comic-book like effects/plots/actions etc, like in the Superman or Batman films. But Doctor Who never was a comic book, so it never had any comic book stories to mimic. That makes it a lot easier to take it in different directions, especially as you've also got this main character who can keep changing into someone a little different. So, there's never a fixed theme that needs following.

Superman on the other hand, has a big tradition of Clark being the hero and Lex being the villain that SV did need to honour. Plus, Superman is this big American icon (from what I gather), they couldn't just flip things around (ala Wicked in comparison to The Wizard of Oz) and make Clark a jerk... although, that might have happened anyway...

I'm not saying the SV team did their job well, in fact I agree with you that by season 4 they'd starting doing it pretty badly. But I do think adding some serious moral ambiguity and more complex issues is probably an easier thing to do in DW.

And that's really it now :) You possibly think more seriously about fandom than anyone else on my flist, who generally just stick to 'squee' and 'yay' and 'nooo!' I actually have to think about stuff when I read your posts. It's great :)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Ahh, but the thing is, comic books have been getting less and less black & white, more complex in the last couple decades. Though really I wasn't talking so much about morality when it came to human emotions - just reactions. You can have a moral story that's still relatively realistic; people can choose to do the right thing, and it becomes all the more significant when they actually have the choice.

Really, DW is more moralistic than SV, I'd say - partly because it's, if not a kid's show, then a family show. The good guys and bad guys are quite clear-cut (bad guys = trying to destroy life, the universe, & everything! EXTERMINATE!; good guys = trying to stop them and help people). But the Doctor and his Companions still come across as believable people, because of how they react to these events; the pain they go through, or the pleasure and excitement of success. Rose and Martha both do and say things that, were I in their position, I could conceivably do, even when in situations that no one would ever be in in real life (e.g. dealing with the Doctor's regeneration.).

While as in SV, the chars react relatively realistically to ordinary things like relationship drama, but have totally nonsensical reactions to the unrealistic, scifi events. Such as the way everyone ignores the meteor mutants - yes, there's a degree that people will do that, but not to the psychotic extents seen in Smallville. The writers just don't bother with the effort of imagining what real people might do in those situations.

You possibly think more seriously about fandom than anyone else on my flist

Eheh...I'm glad you enjoy it, rather than thinking I'm a total lunatic! ^^; I enjoy a good debate and analyzing my enjoyment (or lack thereof!), but sometimes I worry I spoil the fun of people who don't want to spend so much time pondering their entertainment!

(in more standard lj-style - squeeee! to your icon! eeeee I want that next ep~!)

[airairo.livejournal.com]

I really need to watch Doctor Who Confidential! But I'm kind of... attempting to pace myself? Because I have fallen so hard that I'm already anticipating how badly I'm going to be flailing around when I catch up XD

DW is made by fans, people who grew up with the show and love it, are thrilled to be bringing it to a new generation, and you can feel that, watching the show.

I'm not surprised to learn this at all. It really is evident while watching that the people behind the show absolutely love what they're doing... and it's so contagious. DW has so, so much heart, it's been very easy for me to get attached. ♥

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

We didn't start watching the Confidentials until we finished the show. Because then you're done and are still needing moooooore because, um, I think they lace the eps with crack cocaine? or something...I don't think I properly appreciated how much I loved the show until this jonesing for a new ep that's NOT OUT YET AHHH! (...it is gonna be a very long wait until Christmas...)

--Yeah, I take it back, it's not coke, it's 'heart'. Damn heart! Why must you be so irresistable!?