xparrot: Chopper reading (sga rodney the things i have done)
[personal profile] xparrot
My last post got into a discussion on this, and then I started piling on comments on [livejournal.com profile] seperis's post, so I figure I should make my own post. It's either that or write a fic, and as [livejournal.com profile] naye and [livejournal.com profile] gnine informed me, I have way too many other things I ought to be writing. (Though I might anyway. In which case this will be a warm-up.)

So in several reviews of "Last Man" I've seen a particular interpretation of canon come up, that apparently ticked off a lot of other McSheppers, to the point that many dislike the episode. To wit: resentment that "Rodney didn't even try to bring Sheppard home until he realized Keller was going to die. Great way to forget about the team and concentrate on a forced romance" and "John just became a tool to save Keller".

What's odd to me is that I didn't see it this way at all. In fact, it honestly didn't even occur to me that it could be seen this way until I started seeing the interpretation on other posts, and folks agreeing. To me, "Last Man" is one of the McSheppiest eps of the entire show.

I saw very little romance or 'true love' between Rodney & Jennifer, just two people holding onto one another and the last bit of happiness they could find. It was hard for me to see Rodney as loving Keller when he never says "love," to Sheppard or to her, even at the end; when neither of them are wearing rings; when he so blithely ignored her last wishes, and exhibits absolutely zero angst at the prospect of never getting together with her - just excitement that the circumstances that brought them together would never occur. He's talking to her on her deathbed, telling her that what made "us" happen will never happen, and he looks thrilled. Yes, he's telling her that she'll live - as part of a list: "I'm going to make it so none of this ever happened - you won't get sick, Teyla won't die, Michael won't complete his research, none of it." Of course he mentions her first - she's on her deathbed! But saving Jennifer's life isn't the point, it's a happy byproduct. (I think it's important that Jennifer's death is a direct consequence of Pegasus - if she had died of cancer or a car accident, then Rodney fetching John to save her might've been harder to take. But Keller was yet another victim of everything he's trying to put right.)

I don't see Keller's death as Rodney's motivation, but the catalyst. It's the final straw, as Joe Mallozzi says (he's not the writer, that was Mullie for this ep, but considering how closely the writers work together he can probably speak for all of them):

Jennifer’s death isn’t the only reason Rodney decides to try to undo the timeline. But it is the final straw. Prior to that, he considered the possibility that he could actually come up with a solution next to impossible. But, with Jennifer dead, the last positive thing in his life died with her and he was finally able to wholly commit himself to the seemingly impossible task.

This reads differently to different fans. To me, Keller's death is what snaps Rodney, finally breaks him - and he needed to be broken, to come up with the plan he devised. "That's when I had my idea". Not that he had the idea all along and rejected it; it had never occurred to Rodney how to do it before (given the pressure he was under, that's hardly surprising.) Once he does figure out how, once he gets that lunatic inspiration, nothing stops him, not Jennifer's deathbed plea, not Jeannie's concerns.

It's not like Rodney knew how to save Sheppard but was too lazy to get around to it until Keller died. The episode never implies that Rodney decided that Sheppard wasn't worth the effort, but Keller was. Saving Sheppard and the rest of the galaxy wasn't just a matter of hard work; it was a feat that everyone believed was impossible. Including Rodney himself - and Rodney no longer had the one person who always pushes him to do the impossible. John wasn't there. And Rodney, after failing to save friend after friend after friend, probably had little confidence that he could ever manage such a thing. Until it got to be so bad that he couldn't take the failure anymore, and cracked. "I thought I was going to lose my mind...and that's when I had my idea." That's just semantics - his idea is insanity; his mind is lost. Only an insane man believes he can rewrite history, can bring the dead back to life.

Jennifer's death was the straw that broke him - but it didn't have to be that. A lot of folks seem disturbed that if Jennifer hadn't died, Rodney wouldn't have saved John. I didn't see that. Rodney's fragile, in all the flashbacks (from the moment John's declared KIA - and Rodney refuses to call him dead, even a year later, even helpless to save him) until that flash of inspiration; he's a shadow of his true self, quiet and somber, calm (Rodney? Calm? Ever?) - beaten down; reduced. His holographic persona tells John, of him and Jennifer, "It was great" - but a very conditional "great" that seems, a brief moment, less than a year, that they both try to find happiness. Would it have lasted, even if Jennifer had lived? Would he truly have been able to put Pegasus behind him? We don't know - we don't see. I don't think it would have taken much more to break him - and if something else had sparked that inspiration, he would've turned his back on Keller, as he did with Jeannie.

There was no particular emphasis on Rodney/Jennifer in the episode. It was one event of many (and an event Rodney didn't even care to mention to Sheppard, until pushed; an event that he had no particular wish to have remembered). It's the final straw by virtue of there being nothing else left - Rodney loses John, Teyla, Ronon, Sam, and Atlantis before Keller. (One can argue those things are going from most to least important...) If Keller had died first, right after John, would Rodney have had his brilliant stroke of madness then? Or would it still have been after everything else, after he'd been driven to the edge and then off it? I could see the episode playing out with any of them being that catalyst; it's only Jennifer because she lasted the longest.

If Keller's life really had been the most significant thing to Rodney, wouldn't he have mentioned her death to Sheppard earlier? Gone to the trouble of specifying how to save her, to keep her away from the Hoffan drug? That info's presumably on the data crystal with everything else, but it's not important enough for him to mention until Sheppard pushes him on it. He doesn't mention Keller (he refers to "Jennifer" once, early on, but that's it) until the end, and then - he has boatloads of regrets, but no regrets about possibly never hooking up with her.

Of course, John's reaction to hearing about Rodney & Jennifer had to be one of the most frighteningly romantic things I've ever seen. He's heard that the team died, Atlantis was lost, Pegasus fell to Michael - and he still hesitates about changing the timeline, if it's going to screw up Rodney's happiness. I mean, it's one thing when you love someone enough to let them go and find happiness with someone else - it's another thing to love someone so much you are willing to let an entire galaxy fall for them. And that's what John offers. Man! Oh, John, the depth of your love is terrifying.

But is Rodney's any less? What gets me is the trust Rodney has - John is the key to his brilliant idea, the linchpin of the entire plan. Rodney believes that if he can save John, the galaxy will be saved - that John will be able to save them all. And yes, he's going to tell John what to do, what to stop, but he utterly trusts that John can do it.

And the sacrifice Rodney makes is incredible. Twenty-five years and everyone who's left, even his sister, finally has to abandon him to his madness, but "I never wavered." It's one thing to give your life for your friend's in a brief, impulsive blaze of glory. It's another thing to live, alone and obsessed and never faltering, for over two decades - when everyone is telling you that what you're attempting is impossible; when, even if you succeed - you'll never actually know. Rodney's plan was such that he knew that he would never see John again himself - that the universe he was saving, he was saving for another Rodney in another timeline. It's a sacrifice that John himself never would have asked Rodney to make - never would have wanted him to make (though I don't know if John fully realizes that, alternate timelines are hard to wrap one's head around, and John's got a lot on his mind). I guess, maybe, Rodney could have spent those twenty-five years thinking about Keller, about saving her. But that's not exactly the impression I got. (One would think he'd have a picture or two of her around for inspiration, in that case.)

He's not doing it just for John, no; he's doing it for all of them, for two galaxies (hey, it's Rodney McKay; he never thinks small.) But John's the one he's counting on to save all of them, to make his sacrifice worthwhile. Now or twenty-five or forty-eight thousand years in the future, they're a team, and together they do the impossible, even when no one else believes it can be done.

(And one last thought - now with added McSheppiness!)
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Date: 2008-03-10 08:17 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dovil.livejournal.com
Thank god! I'm lazy and inarticulate so the fact that you took what I was thinking and put it into words, what a relief! But yes, that's pretty much exactly what I took from that episode as well.

Date: 2008-03-11 05:42 am (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga team)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Glad to know I'm not alone - I genuinely find it weird that so many others took it badly!

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] dovil.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-03-11 05:48 am (UTC) - Expand

Er...may have gotten carried away...sorry...

Date: 2008-03-10 08:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jadesfire.livejournal.com
Save the cheerleader colonel, save the world!

Oops, sorry, wrong fandom ;)

I'm blinking at the posts you've linked to, just because it's not a POV I can get my head around. In Torchwood (my other big fandom) the slash is canon, and people get ticked off at it. Here, the slash isn't canon and people get ticked off at it.

I'd've been really disappointed if Rodney's sole motivation in changing the timeline was to save Sheppard. But he thinks bigger than that, because that's what heroes do. He needs Sheppard to save the day, he wants Sheppard to come back, and the fact that there's a higher cause doesn't negate his strong emotional reactions, both to Keller's death and seeing Sheppard again. It just sets especially the latter in a bigger context, where he's doing what he's doing to save a galaxy from being brought to its knees. To stop people from dying. I love that they found a way to make it character-driven without sacrificing the plot.

Rodney's personal losses drive him to change things, and yes, it's a distinct possibility that if Keller had never died, he never would have saved Sheppard. Or he might have had his big idea through something else and lost her through his work. *shrugs* I absolutely loved that he was willing to sacrifice that smidgen of happiness to save everyone, and that Sheppard acknowledges. They've given the characters deeper emotional lives (at times) this season, and it's paying dividends. Like you, I loved what they did.

Re: Er...may have gotten carried away...sorry...

Date: 2008-03-11 05:49 am (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga team)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
(people get ticked off by TW slash? Seriously? if they're anti-slash why do they watch the show??)

I have to admit, my little OTP heart sorta squishes at the thought of Rodney doing it all for Sheppard. What baffles me about the reactions is that - my OTP heart was satisfied! It's not very difficult to interpret the ep as being all about saving Sheppard, with everyone else as the afterthought; he just didn't get the inspiration until after Keller died. It's easier to see it that way than to see it being about saving Keller (if Keller were so important to him, why wasn't he looking for another way to save her when she was still alive? Talking to doctors, researching online...instead he's just standing in the corridor, breaking and helpless...)

But, yes, I love that it's both personal and epic simultaneously, that Rodney is saving Sheppard and saving the galaxy...you know they're heroes when to do both is one and the same!
Edited Date: 2008-03-11 05:49 am (UTC)

Date: 2008-03-10 08:41 pm (UTC)
naye: A cartoon of a woman with red hair and glasses in front of a progressive pride flag. (atlantis - family)
From: [personal profile] naye
This is a gorgeous piece of meta, and I wish I had something of substance to add to it, but - talking on the phone today I already said most of it, I think.

All of it, except this - it's one thing to give your life for your friend's in a brief, impulsive blaze of glory. It's another thing to live, alone and obsessed and never faltering, for over two decades - when everyone is telling you that what you're attempting is impossible;

It's so heartbreakingly true. When it comes to fiction and romance, it seems "I'd die for you" is the ultimate proof of devotion, but really? Dying you can get over with pretty quickly. It's living that is really difficult. And making an active choice to live alone, sacrifice the rest of your life on the altar of an impossible hope, a hope the few people you have left in your life beg you to give up? It speaks such incredible volumes about the depths of Rodney's love for his friends, all his friends, all the ones he couldn't save, and for his city, and for the galaxy he wanted to protect.

Thanks for writing this. This is the episode I watched, and the emotions I felt, and the characters I love. It rings true to my very core.



(Also, your icon? Rodney! Rodney, Rodney, Rodney, Rodney~! *squee*)
Edited Date: 2008-03-10 08:43 pm (UTC)

Date: 2008-03-11 02:07 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga rodney the things i have done)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
I've always thought "living for someone" is one of the most romantic and ultimate sacrifices - which is what Rodney was doing anyway, trying to make a life for himself with Jennifer, trying to have some happiness because that's what his teammates would have wanted for him. Instead he sacrifices that for them, and oh, Rodney!

(and hee, glad you like the icon - every time I listen to Beethoven's Last Night I hear Rodney Rodney Rodney!)

Date: 2008-03-10 09:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jujuberry136.livejournal.com
I think you brought up some great points- especially regarding the idea of Jennifer dying as a catalyst rather than a cause. Because even though we (the audience) can so obviously see how Rodney would be able to figure out how to save John, it isn't rational. Only when he has nothing else to lose (and no one there ALL the time to tell him to stop) does he give up on the sane plans and move to the insane one.

Thanks for the insight! It was great.

Date: 2008-03-11 02:46 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga rodney the things i have done)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Yeah, the problem with watching a scifi show is that no plan sounds insane, because anything is possible in SF! But the chars don't realize they're in such a show, and believe there are limits (well, except for Sheppard, who totally knows. But he wasn't there to push Rodney past rationality...)

Glad you enjoyed my raving!

Date: 2008-03-10 09:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] equusentric.livejournal.com
I admit that I was one of the gloom&doom group. You make a valid point, though, and I will keep it in mind when I rewatch it.

he still hesitates about changing the timeline, if it's going to screw up Rodney's happiness.

Out of all the sadness of the episode, this is what actually yanked the tears into my eyes. John's love for Rodney is ferociously boundless. ♥

Date: 2008-03-11 02:55 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga mcshep)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Aww, I'm glad I might help change your mind - I tend to go for the most squeeful interpretation of eps, but I lucked out in this one because this is the way I saw it from the start. Hope I've helped spread the squee a little!

John really is in love. Not that Rodney doesn't love John, but John's love is almost scary...

Date: 2008-03-10 10:09 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] shinigrace.livejournal.com
Thank you. I was becoming a bit annoyed with the 'john became a tool to save keller' sentiment. I liked this episode a lot actually, simply for the fact that it broke my heart to see Rodney like that... he was so subdued. *worships your icon*

Date: 2008-03-11 02:58 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga rodney the things i have done)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
I loved this ep, and yeah, Rodney broke my heart (in the best of ways!)
And glad you like the icon! (every time I hear that song it makes me think of Rodney...)

Date: 2008-03-10 10:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darlulu.livejournal.com
Jennifer's death was the straw that broke him - but it didn't have to be that. A lot of folks seem disturbed that if Jennifer hadn't died, Rodney wouldn't have saved John. I didn't see that.

I didn't either. If Jennifer had lived, I think she would've still wound up as nothing more than an interlude with Rodney eventually being driven to correct the timeline and her ultimately turning away from his obsessive self.

If Keller had died first, right after John, would Rodney have had his brilliant stroke of madness then? Or would it still have been after everything else, after he'd been driven to the edge and then off it? I could see the episode playing out with any of them being that catalyst; it's only Jennifer because she lasted the longest.

I completely agree, and honestly don't get whey some fans are deducing that Rodney's epiphany had to do with losing Jennifer personally instead of losing the last link he had to Atlantis.

Date: 2008-03-11 03:00 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga mcshep)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
If Jennifer had lived, I think she would've still wound up as nothing more than an interlude with Rodney eventually being driven to correct the timeline and her ultimately turning away from his obsessive self.

Yes, definitely! This is exactly how I saw it (really, I was surprised the first time I saw someone saying otherwise! I was so relieved, watching the ep, that the Keller thing was such a footnote in Rodney's life, that it confused me how folks could take it as a main event...)

Date: 2008-03-10 11:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darlulu.livejournal.com
Also: this bit -

It's one thing to give your life for your friend's in a brief, impulsive blaze of glory. It's another thing to live, alone and obsessed and never faltering, for over two decades - when everyone is telling you that what you're attempting is impossible; when, even if you succeed - you'll never actually know.

is so, so true and makes what Rodney did so extraordinary. What heroism we've seen from the other characters on the show thus far have almost entirely fallen under the implusive blazes of glory category. The original Elizabeth being the only exception, although her experience was quite different from Rodney's in that she got to execute her plan in short order and escape to the stasis chamber for the duration before ultimately witnessing the fruits of her labor.

Date: 2008-03-11 03:00 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga rodney the things i have done)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
All I can say to this is <3 Oh, Rodney!

Date: 2008-03-10 11:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] trystings.livejournal.com
You wrote (far more eloquently) what I was thinking. When I watched the episode I saw a person dedicating twenty five years of his life to bring his friend back from the future to correct a timeline that had spiraled out of control. Yes, perhaps Keller's death was the last straw in this scenario, but it could have been anything: Michael's hybrids reaching Earth, Jeannie or Madison dying from the Hoffan virus, anything.

And Rodney seems almost apologetic about his relationship with Keller, emphasizing to Sheppard how the circumstances drove them together. He even tells Sheppard he's counting on the two of them not getting together, once Sheppard fixes the timeline. So I think, even if Keller had lived, Rodney would still have preferred the other reality, where Sheppard comes back and everyone survives, and he would have sacrificed his relationship with Keller to put things right.

Date: 2008-03-11 03:03 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga rodney the things i have done)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
That's a great point, about Rodney seeming apologetic about him & Jennifer...he seems reluctant to make any kind of deal about it at all, even though Sheppard tries to. I'm tempted to see Rodney as feeling guilty about Keller, because in the end he didn't care about her enough to listen to her deathbed wishes - he's so very willing to leave that relationship behind, might've even be happier forgetting it, because in the end all it was was another reminder of everything he left behind in Pegasus...

Date: 2008-03-10 11:24 pm (UTC)
sholio: sun on winter trees (Default)
From: [personal profile] sholio
It kinda goes without saying that I agree with pretty much all of this, and it made fascinating reading. :D

It's one thing to give your life for your friend's in a brief, impulsive blaze of glory. It's another thing to live, alone and obsessed and never faltering, for over two decades - when everyone is telling you that what you're attempting is impossible; when, even if you succeed - you'll never actually know.

And ...

He's heard that the team died, Atlantis was lost, Pegasus fell to Michael - and he still hesitates about changing the timeline, if it's going to screw up Rodney's happiness. I mean, it's one thing when you love someone enough to let them go and find happiness with someone else - it's another thing to love someone so much you are willing to let an entire galaxy fall for them. And that's what John offers. Man! Oh, John, the depth of your love is terrifying.

Yes.

It's just amazing, the depth of feeling that was expressed in this episode -- Rodney's incredible sacrifice, not just for John but for everyone, for his friends and family and city and home ... and John, in his way, reciprocating with worry for Rodney's happiness even in the face of all they stand to lose if he doesn't go back.

I'm not into Great Epic Love(TM) ... but, man, it doesn't take much tweaking to make this episode a Great Epic Love Story.

Date: 2008-03-11 03:10 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga rodney the things i have done)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Rodney's incredible sacrifice, not just for John but for everyone, for his friends and family and city and home

That's kind of what it comes down to for me - my OTP side can't help but like the 'doing it all for John' idea, but my Rodney-fan side just loves that he can be this epic a hero, that he sacrificed so much for the sake of everything. (and especially, team! <3)

...it also makes some of the Sheppard-fens' takes a bit disturbing, to me. I've seen a few people upset by the fact that if Rodney hadn't done it, John would've died far in the future, alone. Well, yes, that would've been sad...but he would be just one more person dying tragically in that timeline, and to make his death that much more significant than Teyla's or Ronon's or Sam's is rather devaluing their relationship with Rodney...

Date: 2008-03-10 11:41 pm (UTC)
trobadora: (Desert Sheppard by sgflutegirl)
From: [personal profile] trobadora
I just want to say a very heartfelt "thank you" for this post - I was beginning to feel very alone in a very baffling fandom that had seen a completely different episode.

Date: 2008-03-11 03:13 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga mcshep)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
*laughs* You're welcome - it seems like a lot of us somehow tuned into a different ep! (parallel universe? We seem to have gotten the better reality! ^^)

more on "Last Man"

Date: 2008-03-11 03:27 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] maxinemayer.livejournal.com
I've said it elsewhere but it bears repeating: it could have been Rodney simply going back to earth in defeat and misery, to mourn for a year, without Keller being involved at all! I never got the impression that Keller's death was in any way the *inspiration* for Rodney's 25 year quest to bring John back and save Teyla and the Pegasus Galaxy. Only that it was at the point of her death that his idea came to him!

In no way did Rodney's year of a relationship with Keller impress me as central or even particularly important to Rodney, in context of the entire episode "The Last Man." What was central, epic, was Rodney's 25 year quest to bring back John Sheppard! Whether you view this as a "romantic" or "Platonic" love, it was *love* and of an incredibly grand sort! It seems to me that the episode leads to that conclusion.

So, having said that, I want to say I agree with your evaluation and love how well you express what I believe! Thank you for sharing.
Love, max

Re: more on "Last Man"

Date: 2008-03-11 03:41 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga rodney the things i have done)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
it could have been Rodney simply going back to earth in defeat and misery, to mourn for a year, without Keller being involved at all!

As you know, I totally agree! It seems like some people took holo-Rodney's "It was great" at his word, but he didn't look "great" there...just surviving. There was such melancholy, Rodney is so quiet and diminished, even before Keller falls ill.

What was central, epic, was Rodney's 25 year quest to bring back John Sheppard!

Heh - I wasn't seeing it that way exactly, more that Rodney was out to change the galaxy...and then I realized that Rodney could've probably sent himself back in time. But no, he had to save John, had to put it all right...

Date: 2008-03-11 05:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] argosy.livejournal.com
I can (and do) hold completely contradictory ideas in my head about this. I love the Rodney/Jennifer love story with a kind of unholy passion and I am perfectly willing to see it as true love forever. Otoh, I am a McShepper through and through and I love the slashy interpretation of Last Man, too. And come on? 25 years? No way that isn't undying love. :)

So I'm perfectly happy to um, swing both ways. And maybe a third way: I don't see why Rodney can't love them both completely. ♥

Date: 2008-03-11 03:44 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga mcshep)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Heh, and aww - that is the advantage of not being a hardcore OTPer, more to squee over! (I wish I could turn off my OTPing at times, it can get bothersome!)

I actually really liked the Rodney/Jennifer story myself, but I couldn't see it as a love story, except as the love between two more-than-friends who could understand one another as no one else could (I kinda have this weird thing for, um, not quite tragic romance? But romance that is doomed to never matter as much as greater concerns, like saving galaxies...)

Date: 2008-03-11 03:53 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/_kiden/
Yes. You win the day!

Date: 2008-03-11 05:57 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga mcshep)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
XD (really, I'm just glad I'm not the only one who saw it this way!

Date: 2008-03-11 04:04 pm (UTC)
ext_2453: (Default)
From: [identity profile] mangosorbet007.livejournal.com
I very much agree. Also, Rodney teaching community college for 25 years? That's true sacrifice. Death would probably have been preferable, to all involved. ;->

Date: 2008-03-11 05:58 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga panic)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
XDDD Too true!

Date: 2008-03-11 04:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] purna.livejournal.com
Here via sga_noticeboard, by the way.

Wow, I hadn't read any of those discussions, and I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around that interpretation. My own take aligns exactly with what you've posted here.

In my opinion, complicated motivations are reality. We rarely can point to just one thing to explain ourselves--yes, this bad review is why I quit that job--and that's human.

I liked that the writers created a spectrum of things that sent Rodney into his quarter century of sacrifice, his love letter to all of Atlantis.

I'm a huge fan of McKay/Sheppard OTP, but Rodney's pairing up with Keller felt right here. It wasn't the way either of their lives was supposed to turn out, they'd both lost everything, and nobody else could possibly understand that. Who else to turn to?

But in the end who is Rodney's talisman? John. When he's with John, things work out, and that's the only hope he has left.

I'll shut up now. :D

Date: 2008-03-11 06:04 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga rodney the things i have done)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
I liked that the writers created a spectrum of things that sent Rodney into his quarter century of sacrifice, his love letter to all of Atlantis.

I also loved this, that Rodney wants it all back, and to save Pegasus, too; that it's not one thing but everything that broke him, and that he does it for all of them.

But in the end who is Rodney's talisman? John. When he's with John, things work out, and that's the only hope he has left.

Yes, exactly! "talisman" is such a lovely way to put it - Rodney will always count on John's luck and will above his own. That's exactly how I saw it, that he put all his faith in John Sheppard's ability to save the day.

Date: 2008-03-11 04:26 pm (UTC)
ext_3270: Animated LiveJournal Because... (sorchasilver SGA John/Rodney)
From: [identity profile] sorchasilver.livejournal.com
Oh, thank you! I've been very confused by some of the comments I've seen about this episode, because they seem to have been written by someone watching a completely different show to me. *g* I agree with everything you wrote and you expressed it much better than I could have. Thanks for reassuring me I wasn't the only one thinking this way.

I'm a total OTPer, and I loved this episode so much. I was actually really happy for Rodney and Jennifer, that at least they had each other to lean on for a bit. And the "last straw" interpretation was the only one that occured to me, I never even realised there was another until I saw some of the comments elsewhere.

I feel better for reading this!

Date: 2008-03-11 06:05 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga mcshep)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Hee - it seems a lot of us somehow ended up in a parallel universe, where we saw a *good* version of the finale! I feel sorry for everyone off in that other timeline, watching the non-McShep version, they missed such lovely stuff XD

Date: 2008-03-11 04:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darsynia.livejournal.com
I could see the episode playing out with any of them being that catalyst; it's only Jennifer because she lasted the longest.

I agree. I think they left her till last for reasons that had nothing to do with the fact that they were a couple, and everything to do with an emotional arc for Rodney and John's selfless comment of saying 'but you got the girl, you had a life, why would I change that?'

I mean, it's one thing when you love someone enough to let them go and find happiness with someone else - it's another thing to love someone so much you are willing to let an entire galaxy fall for them. And that's what John offers. Man! Oh, John, the depth of your love is terrifying.

Exactly! I felt this, too, where John plays 'the audience as devil's advocate' almost a little bit, the person who has to ask 'whose right is it to change this? why is it a good idea?' and adds the twist of their relationship with each other as a character moment for John. And what character! I really see this in John, the self-effacing part which says 'hey, wait a minute, I want to be saved and all, and things did suck, but your life has pretty much been hell for years and it sounds like out of all of them, you turned out okay--and who am I to say that should be changed, just to save me?' Because really, they're all about saving each other's asses, and I think here John is trying to point out to Rodney that he doesn't want Rodney to give up that life for him any more than Rodney wanted John to sacrifice himself any of those times.

It's one thing to give your life for your friend's in a brief, impulsive blaze of glory. It's another thing to live, alone and obsessed and never faltering, for over two decades - when everyone is telling you that what you're attempting is impossible; when, even if you succeed - you'll never actually know.

That's the thing I think people have only just now started to touch on, and the even deeper level below it--that Rodney basically is giving up his life in the way that Elizabeth does in Before I Sleep, but he won't ever know, and certainly won't ever get to live, that life. I think this above everything else points to the fact that both John and Rodney view their lives as that life, in Atlantis, and that one divergence point was AU for Rodney ever since John disappeared. It's hard to articulate what I'm trying to say, just that--their life in Atlantis is where they both feel they belong, and that's why John's willingness to say 'hey, maybe we shouldn't do this' is so powerful, because he's saying to Rodney, 'maybe it's okay to accept what happened, as long as you were happy.'

Rodney could have spent those twenty-five years thinking about Keller, about saving her. But that's not exactly the impression I got.

I got the sense that he spent those years thinking 'I've got to fix this, and John is the key.' Everything radiates out from that, and it doesn't mean he wasn't thinking about Keller, or Teyla, or any of them, but most definitely he must have been focused on John.

Date: 2008-03-11 06:14 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga mcshep)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Because really, they're all about saving each other's asses, and I think here John is trying to point out to Rodney that he doesn't want Rodney to give up that life for him any more than Rodney wanted John to sacrifice himself any of those times.

Yes and yes, to all you say, and I love how you say it! Rodney made an incredible sacrifice, one which I don't think John even fully grasps (he doesn't get much chance to assimilate it) - and I don't know that John would have asked him to make it, would have wanted him to make him. Rodney gives his life for John in that timeline, and John would rather Rodney lived a happy life - but I doubt Rodney could have, not if he'd known there was a way to save John and everyone else and didn't take it.

both John and Rodney view their lives as that life, in Atlantis, and that one divergence point was AU for Rodney ever since John disappeared.

I really see this - and for Rodney, he starts to see his own life as AU as soon as he realizes there's a way to fix things. The way he talks to Keller - Jennifer's on her deathbed and Rodney's grinning and thrilled, because he can't save her in this time, but he will save her, and the Jennifer dying now isn't real to him anymore. None of it is real, except the work he has to do to bring the reality he wants to life. And John is the key.

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] darsynia.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-03-11 06:19 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2008-03-11 05:04 pm (UTC)
callmeri: wwx and lwj smiling at the end of The Untamed (Rodney Angst)
From: [personal profile] callmeri
Thank you so much for articulating this. Just, *yes*. This is exactly what I took from the ep, but I just couldn't manage to put it together into a cohesive argument.

I hope you don't mind if I link to you from my own LJ. If so, just say the word. :)

Date: 2008-03-11 06:15 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga rodney the things i have done)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
You're welcome to link, and thank you! I'm just glad it makes sense - and that I'm not alone in seeing it this way!

Date: 2008-03-11 05:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] parisntripfan.livejournal.com
Here via the noticeboard...

Nothing wrong with getting carried away.

I pretty much agree with your analysis. I saw the comment on JM's blog, but didn't really need to, because I come a similar conclusion myself. That Jennifer's death was last straw. It wasn't the sole reason, I doubt it was even the main reason, but it was part of the reason. The rest had to do with saving Teyla and the baby, preventing Micheal from being able the prefect his hybrids and thus saving the galaxy as well and Ronon and Sam. I don't think he thought of as "saving John" because in his mind John was not dead. He was just... misplaced in time.

Now would Rodney have come up with his plan if Jennifer hadn't died? I don't know. I tend to think not, but only because he wouldn't have been that sort desperate frame of mind he almost needs to in to come up with some of his more insane and brilliant ideas. (the whole pretty good under the threat of impending death thing) And faced with losing yet one person to the disaster of the Pegasus galaxy was what put him back into that frame of mind. As other's have said, if Keller had died of cancer or a car accident or some other other sort of death could happen to just about anyone, I don't think it would have broken Rodney the way that losing her to Hothen virus did.

That is not to say I think that Keller was the love of his life. I think she had become every important to him, had by default of just about everyone else being dead, his best friend. And I do think they loved each other and they might have managed to make it work.

Now I agree that Rodney's plan shows the faith that Rodney has in John. That if he can get John back to the right time, John and along with the knowledge about where the Teyla and the baby will be, then they can change history...they can prevent a horrible disaster form ever taking place.

I would also say that I think is says something that Teyla, Sam and Ronon each died alone. Not completely alone true, but without his/her fellow team members being there. To me that says a whole lot about how important the team and how much they need each other to survive.

Date: 2008-03-11 06:22 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga mcshep)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Yes, JM's blog entry just made me nod and go "good, so we were meant to see it that way!"' (oddly, some other folks take that very entry as support that saving Jennifer was Rodney's motivation, which does confuse me, as it seems pretty straightforward?)

I tend to think not, but only because he wouldn't have been that sort desperate frame of mind he almost needs to in to come up with some of his more insane and brilliant ideas.

I agree that he needed something to push him into that frame of mind, but I tend to think myself that he would have gotten there even if Keller had lived - especially given how he tells Lorne about "what's happening here," the Milky Way seems to be in such bad shape that Rodney might have been pushed into doing something, if five or ten years later. But it's impossible to say.

I would also say that I think is says something that Teyla, Sam and Ronon each died alone.

This is very true. They also all died off Atlantis, which, I don't know, breaks my heart in some ways, that none of them were 'home'. I don't know what happened to old!Rodney after he completed his hologram, but I wonder if he might have passed away on Atlantis, the only one of them to do so...

Date: 2008-03-11 06:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hestia-lacey.livejournal.com
Now or twenty-five or forty-eight thousand years in the future, they're a team, and together they do the impossible, even when no one else believes it can be done.

They've done the impossible, and that makes them mighty :D I have to say, I came away from this post feeling like I should make a banner, wave some flags and wear a badge to show my pride... or something! I just loved the *love* in this episode, so very much. Thanks for posting.

Date: 2008-03-11 06:24 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga mcshep)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
I know! To me, this ep was all about the love between them (John for Rodney, Rodney for John and for all of his team and Atlantis and Pegasus) - and I was honestly surprised by how many seem to take it other ways!

Date: 2008-03-11 06:12 pm (UTC)
grammarwoman: (Hewlett)
From: [personal profile] grammarwoman
Here also via the noticeboard...

And here also to say thank you! You articulated everything I felt about the episode. I was rather shocked at the amount of people who've had problems with Rodney's motivation. This was a man who was waiting on his Nobel, on the recognition of his peers of his genius. He gave up everything to toil in obscurity, just to save John for another timeline. How is that not the most romantic move EVER?

So yes, thanks for this.

Date: 2008-03-11 06:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] darsynia.livejournal.com
Just popping by to say EXACTLY! Why aren't more people catching on to the shabby apartment and community college?!

(no subject)

From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-03-11 06:28 pm (UTC) - Expand

Date: 2008-03-11 06:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foliogal.livejournal.com
Oh, word! I loved this episode so much: it brought laughter, it brought tears, it brought pretty much everything I want in an episode really. And when I read some of those interpretations of 'why' Rodney basically spent the rest of his life trying to hit the reset button I just scratched my head. (And felt sad that other people weren't as happy as I was over the episode. Because when I love an episode I want everyone to love it. *g*) I love lots of episodes of SGA, but I found something special in this one. David Hewlett isn't often asked to do 'nuance' (or, let's face it, 'subtle') in SGA, but this is the result when he is, and they should do it more often.

I wish I had something intelligent to add to this, but I don't. You pretty much managed to make coherent all the scrambled thoughts that were flying through my head after The Last Man. Suffice to say, that is exactly the way I saw it, and after reading so many other posts on the subject, I'm glad to see here that I wasn't alone. :) Thank you!

Date: 2008-03-11 06:58 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga mcshep)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
I think a lot of us are glad we're not alone in our interpretation - the squee must stick together! Really, I know exactly what you mean, about feeling sad about the people who didn't enjoy it (especially since I always feel sorry for myself when I don't like an ep my friends enjoy - they're the ones having more fun! So usually I try to convince myself to come around to their point of view anyway ^^)

And DH, yes - I lauded him him my actual ep review, he did an amazing job. The man can act, given cause, and I love him all the more when he's underplaying it (I've seen a couple people complaining the ep was unemotional, to which I again could only wonder what episode they were watching, as it didn't seem to be the one I saw!)

Date: 2008-03-11 07:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] tex.livejournal.com
Here via link from [livejournal.com profile] callmerizzo

I wish that, instead of watching The Last Man, I had just read this wonderful commentary. This is what I had hoped that episode was going to be about. Thank you for writing this.

Date: 2008-03-11 08:13 pm (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga mcshep)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
Heh - the thing is, to me, this genuinely was what the ep was about! Sometimes I've gotta twist my brain around an interpretation to make an ep sit right with me (and I'll do so, in name of the squee) but in this case, I saw it like this from the very beginning. One of the lucky ones! But I hope I've managed to make it a little more acceptable for you, anyway ^^

Yes!

Date: 2008-03-11 08:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] melagan.livejournal.com
And yes, he's going to tell John what to do, what to stop, but he utterly trusts that John can do it....

Twenty-five years and everyone who's left, even his sister, finally has to abandon him to his madness, but "I never wavered."


For me this was Rodney's love letter to John.

Re: Yes!

Date: 2008-03-12 08:56 am (UTC)
ext_3572: (sga mcshep)
From: [identity profile] xparrot.livejournal.com
For many of us! (though I worry now, after s4, how is s5 possibly gonna top the McShep?? Just hope it levels out rather than dropping off, that'll make me all sadface!)

Re: Yes!

From: [identity profile] melagan.livejournal.com - Date: 2008-03-12 12:33 pm (UTC) - Expand
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