pondering on pairings

[xparrot]

How can you like a pairing when you hate one character in the pairing? Do any of you do this? I often have my favorite characters in a pairing (sometimes to the point that I'll stray from my OTP to see my favorite with others - for all I am obsessively McSheppist, I will on occasion indulge in Rodney/various-others, because it's fun to see Rodney getting love.) But even when I have a favorite, I'll still like the other character, else I wouldn't be able to understand what they see in each other. I don't think I've ever had a preferred pairing (not just romantic, friendship, either) that I actively disliked one member. How do you manage it, if you do? How do you explain your favorite char's tastes, if you can't see the appeal yourself? I'm genuinely curious; I can't figure out how it would satisfy me to read or write something like that (break-up fics aside. And I only like writing break-up fics, I don't like reading them...)

(...Brought on by a discussion with another SGA fan who detests Rodney but apparently reads McShep.)

(...while I'm at it, did anyone see The Scene in "Miller's Crossing" as Rodney selfishly and deliberately dumping the problem of feeding Todd onto John? I'd never encountered that interpretation before, and it kind of boggles me. What with Rodney begging John to let him sacrifice himself, and then trying to sneak around John's back later anyway. Yes, Rodney can be an arrogant ass, it's part of his charm. But there's more to him than that. I always saw John as the selfish one in "Miller's Crossing", not allowing his teammate to give up his own life - and I love John for that crazy selfishness, even if it was Rodney's choice; I love that John couldn't. But I didn't suspect that Rodney expected that - I thought he went to John partly to get his affairs in order, but mostly because he needed John's help to do it. Without John's orders, the Marines would've shot Todd the moment he laid a hand on Rodney, and that wouldn't have helped anyone. Rodney went to John prepared for an argument - but not for John's flat refusal. And I think he probably struggled to come to terms with what John did, but in the end forgave John, because John needed his acceptance, and Rodney understood why John did it, even if he couldn't have done the same. It never crossed my mind that he was actually manipulating John to kill for him. I wonder how arrogantly selfish that makes him in "The Shrine," then, taking up John's valuable time demanding comfort and beer, just because he's losing his mind...)

Comments

[sholio]

I'm probably being way too nosy here, but if it's somewhere public, I really want to see it, because I'm curious if it's someone specific that I've had a couple of encounters with. Would you feel too weird about emailing me the link? If you don't want to, I understand.

I can kinda-sorta understand it, in a way, because I can definitely write characters I don't like in canon, and character relationships that don't interest me in canon; I just have to dig down until I find something about them that is a "hook" for me, even if it means having to go slightly OOC or having to extrapolate far beyond what canon gave us. What I don't understand is actively seeking out those characters to write about, or actively shipping a favorite character with one you don't like. I can totally write a character I'm not fond of, and (IMHO) do a fair job of it (and I enjoy the challenge), but I would generally be doing it because I needed that character in the plot, or because that character has a pivotal role in canon and can't be written out without leaving a hole. Actively shipping a character you detest seems very strange to me.

(Question: you wrote Clark/Lex, right? Did you actually like Clark? Because I didn't, really. ^^;; But I sometimes liked him in fic.)

And the Miller's Crossing thing ... WHUT? *boggles* Okay, I can actually buy that Rodney went to Sheppard with the subconscious or even half-conscious hope that Sheppard would somehow be able to fix things for him -- I don't think it was his major reason for going there, but Sheppard is Rodney's go-to emotional fixit person of last resort, and I can totally believe that there was some part of his mind going "Sheppard can make it better". But cold-bloodedly manipulating him? What?

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes, I can see using a char you don't like because you need them to make a story work, and writing them to be more palatable. But since I'm not into bashing, I tend to write around them when possible, and avoid reading fic about them. Chars I'm neutral about, I'm open to having my opinion changed; but chars I actually dislike, I tend to avoid, because once I get settled in my distaste I get annoyed/almost, hmm, resentful of attempts to change my mind? (It has happened before; characters who undergo considerable change as part of the story, I'll re-evaluate. But otherwise, not so much...)

That's the thing, I actually did like Clark - at least in the beginning. I came into SV through the fic, and the Clark of the SV TV show (who can be a reprehensible ass) is but a poor shadow of the Clark in my head. Otherwise he wouldn't be worthy of Lex! Besides, canon-Lex became almost as unlikable as canon-Clark by the end, but I was able to write it off to bad writing and still love my Lex, and his Clark.

To be fair, it wasn't suggested that Rodney was cold-bloodedly manipulating Sheppard, only that it was awful and arrogant and selfish for him to go to Sheppard. Which seemed to imply it was a deliberate attempt to get out of dying, which I can't see. I can buy that Rodney subconsciously was hoping John would fix it somehow - but when John refuses him, Rodney tries to break into the lab anyway; he wasn't counting on Sheppard to save the day, and was fully prepared to go through with sacrificing himself.

(You can argue that such sacrifice is selfish in itself, but I still see John as the more selfish, for taking on the responsibility himself. Not to mention getting a guy killed!)

[elandrialore.livejournal.com]

Huh. You know, at times, I've hated Clark as they portray him on SV, but I'm a die hard Clexer. I think it's because my interpretation of Clark is, well, I was going to say better, but that sounds egotistical so I'll say more palatable. I have to work to like him in canon, but in my fic I gloss over the parts I don't like, I guess. And when I read other people's fic, it seems that they either do the same thing, or they've come up with an explanation for his behavior that actually makes sense.

If I hadn't like him initially - and maybe if I didn't like Tom too - then I probably wouldn't be reading fic about him, because why read things I don't like? And why put a character you love with a character you hate unless you really like angst?

On the other question, that interpretation never even occurred to me. I guess because, well, first Rodney's not that good at manipulating people because he can't really lie very well, but also because even if Rodney was able to lie that well how the hell would he be able to predict that John would find a scapegoat and not just sacrifice himself? 1) It's not like he led John to the idea of picking the other guy, 2) he seemed genuinely shocked when he tried to sneak in an found out what John did and 3) it's not like John hasn't set a precedent of being willing to sacrifice himself.

I just...If he really wanted to 'dump' the problem on John then he wouldn't have come up with the option of letting Todd feed on him, at least not that readily. He would have babbled and blathered and said, "I don't know, and what do you think," and then come around to the idea of, "Maybe I should just let him feed on me." He wouldn't have laid it out like a plan, and he wouldn't have pleaded with John like he did.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's the thing - I like the Clark in my head, even if I don't like Clark as he's become in canon. (Heck, I don't much like canon-Lex these days either, but I still love *my* Lex!) And I do try to see the positive things Clark does in canon; I don't seek out the worst explanations for all his behavior. Usually I just write off anything annoying he does as bad writing!

Rodney's not a manipulator, no - and I don't think he would've gone to John at all had he suspected that John might sacrifice himself. I agree with friendshipper above that Rodney subconsciously might've gone to John hoping for another solution - but I think the main reason he went to John was because he was counting on John finding a way to let him do what needed to be done. I don't think Rodney fully grasps Sheppard's double standard when it comes to self-sacrifice - that he's allowed to do it, but his team is not. Rodney thought Sheppard would understand (and if John had been SG-1, he might've; but this is John!) What cinches it for me is after John refuses him, Rodney tries to break into the lab anyway - he was going to go through with it anyway. Which I think John understood, and that's why he moved so fast...

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

How can you like a pairing when you hate one character in the pairing?

This happens a lot, actually, though I fight against it.

Here's how it goes:

1. Character A is my (or whomever's) One True Character for this source.

2. I want A to be happy! I want to see A getting love, as you say.

3. Looking at canon, I think A loves Character B. A/B is what A wants! That will make A happy!

4. But I hate B! I think he's a jerk! And yet, I see A pining for him.

5. If B (the loser) doesn't love A, B is an ungrateful cad who deserves punishment. Suffer, B, suffer!

6. But A tells me that he wants B, so the story ends up as A/B, because that's what A wants.

What's fascinating to me is that I saw this a lot in SGA fandom during the first 2 seasons, but with Rodney as A, pining for John. During S4 and into S5, pining!John has looked more and more canonical for a lot of fans, so the set of John fans who don't personally care for Rodney are going through the above process.

And that's what is going on in the discussion you cite. She doesn't like Rodney, but she can see that John really, really does. So either she tries to look at Rodney from John's POV, to see what he loves, or she gets all bitter and imagines Rodney as being without any noble motives, a person who is twisting John's obvious devotion. The cad! John deserves so much better, and yet he throws away his love on that jerk!

So, IMHO this is something that happens when *canon* is showing one's OTC loving someone you just can't stand. Next stop: grovelfic.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hmmm...it sounds like a painful process! ^^; Laid out like that, it does make sense - thank you, you've made it a lot clearer to me!

I think the reason I have trouble understanding it myself is because pairings aren't my default setting for fanning. If my preferred char is in a canon romance (or canon subtext, as with McShep) with a char I dislike, then I'll just avoid it in favor of gen relationships I do like. (It's also the case that it's pretty unusual for me to dislike a char - I'm often neutral about some chars, but that only rarely devolves into character hate. It's more often true for me that I'll detest a pairing while not actually disliking either char in it, in which case I tend to just avoid the pairing-fic and go for gen readings of the relationship as much as possible.)

But you're right, I have read earlier-season McShep stories where the author pretty clearly didn't like John (a lot of the post-Trinity stuff.) They're uncomfortable for me to read, because I do love John, too, and get upset when he's portrayed in such a negative light...grovelfic just isn't my cup of tea; I prefer relationship strife to be a mutual thing, with neither/both parties at fault.

Out of curiosity, when this happens - do you make an attempt to like the hated character, try to re-evaluate how you see them or reform their characterizations in your fic? Or do you just grit your teeth and bear it?

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

Oh, I always try to see what A (let's call him "Spock") might see in that jerk B (whom you can think of as "Kirk"). I generally come around to being able to see B from A's POV -- or else I kind of drift away from the fandom, because it hurts me to see my darling A throw his/her heart away on someone who really annoys me. This is basically what happened for me with SV, also because they totally butchered Lex's characterization in the process.

[sholio]

Ha, it's funny that your example is Kirk/Spock in the context of this discussion, because I'm pretty sure that's *exactly* why I always preferred Spock/McCoy -- I really don't like Kirk and, even though I certainly can't deny how important he is to Spock in canon, I just couldn't get past my dislike of the character.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I wonder if my non-dislike of Kirk comes in part from reading fic (well, Star Trek novels) before really watching the show - I'd seen a couple eps and a couple movies when I saw the show (and I still haven't seen the whole thing, I don't think, though I read novelizations of all the eps...) Much of the fic were written by Spock-fans, and, while gen, was awfully K/S subtexty, so I got to know Kirk "through Spock's eyes" as it were. The same thing happened with Clark, actually. So when I did watch the show, I was primed to like the char already, and could easily reject the parts I didn't care for.

SGA, on the other hand, I watched 3 seasons without reading any fic, so while certain of my tastes have definitely been influenced by the fic, my basic opinions were shaped on my own...

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

I have read earlier-season McShep stories where the author pretty clearly didn't like John (a lot of the post-Trinity stuff.)

Yeah, what's kind of fascinating is how there aren't so many of those any more, that McShep fandom has been persuaded that John is really lovable and he really loves Rodney. Personally, I credit 98% of it to Joe Flanigan -- I think he made John into someone the fangirls could whole-heartedly love, who's not just the All-American do-no-wrong Hero.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I actually liked Sheppard from the beginning (I tend to be low-key fond of the Square-Jawed Hero Types), but I didn't become interested in him as a character until it started becoming clear how deeply, deeply weird he really was. And yeah, JFlan gets a lot of credit for that. Also the writers, for making him into a fanboy dork (some of the Sheppard fangirls confuse me in part because they seem to love him for his Square-Jawed-Lone-Ranger-Heroness and ignore his more immature and dorktastic sides, which are the parts I love best about him...)

...but aww, I always kind of liked Kirk. I mean, he's no Spock, but who is? (Is char A usually the sidekick/char B the hero, I wonder? Because part of the problem might be, too, that the sidekick's Most Important Person is usually the hero, while the Hero will have multiple loves vying for attention, and then you feel sorry for sidekick-A, who loves B so deeply but B doesn't completely return it. I wonder if that's kinda what happened with the McShep - Rodney became more a hero later, with John behaving as the love-sick sidekick, so sympathies switched? --no idea if this means anything, just wondering! I may have too much fun analyzing fannish behavior... ^^;)

[sholio]

some of the Sheppard fangirls confuse me in part because they seem to love him for his Square-Jawed-Lone-Ranger-Heroness and ignore his more immature and dorktastic sides, which are the parts I love best about him...

*hee* I brought up this exact point in the email I just sent you ... XD Great minds and all of that!

I actually disliked Sheppard in the first few episodes precisely because I *don't* like the Square-Jawed Hero type much at all. (See Kirk comment above. XD) Reflecting on my emailed comments, though, I suppose it probably has something to do with why a person fans on the show. For me, the characters are hugely appealing as Red Dwarf-esque lovable dorks, saving the universe in spite of their absolutely awful plans and occasional incompetence. But, of course, we all play up the aspects of the show that we like the most in our fic, and downplay the ones we don't; I can see why someone who prefers the characters in their more heroic moments would prefer to write about those.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah - I don't *dislike* the Hero cliche; I'm not terribly interested in such a char, but I don't mind them, either. I do tend to have a thing for chars who are larger-than-life, but with flaws to match; the hero-chars attract me when their flaws show.

Though I think when it comes to fanning - at least when it comes to reading/writing fic - it's not the chars but the relationships that draw me in; I might like to watch a favorite character, but what I want to read is almost always a focus on a particular relationship. So the fans who are in it entirely for their favorite character sort of baffle me; I can't quite get where they're coming from.

[sholio]

*jumps up and down, waving hand* Me too, me too! It's so integral to my own fannish enjoyment that it's really somewhat alien to me to think of only watching/reading/fanning on one character, not two or more at once. I seem to recall talking about this with reference to the Dresden Files books -- I really don't enjoy the "lone hero" archetype much at all, and it took several of the books for me to really get into them, as Harry's relationships with the other characters were developed and deepened.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

The weird thing is, for me, that I can have a favorite character to watch - I'll often have a particular favorite that I'll like their relationships with a whole bunch of other characters, and will also want to see building new relationships (the Doctor comes to mind). Often for me that favoritism gets bound up in a crush on the actor, so that I'll want to see them in everything, playing opposite anyone (as with DH now).

But when it comes to reading and writing, it's the relationships that grab me; I rarely want to read the character on their own. And it works in reverse - I'll have a favorite character, but when I start reading fic about them, I'll start to gravitate to particular relationships, until when I watch the show I'll prefer those relationships above any others (such as with SGA; originally I just liked Rodney, period; now I have a definite preference for Rodney-John and Rodney-team, over anything else.)

[sholio]

See, for me, the impermanence of relationships on Doctor Who is preventing me from fanning on it. I have the same problem with Joss Whedon shows, and with Lost -- I just need more stability than that. I can definitely enjoy a show without being fannish about it (and there are lots of examples) but in order to make the jump to fanning, I need those relationships to be at least somewhat stable -- they can change over time, but I just can't invest myself fannishly when they're always coming and going.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much the case for me - I love watching the Doctor, but I don't read or write fic. In the case of Doctor Who I'm in limbo between enjoying and true fanning - Type A adoration, really - but for all I love the char, I don't engage with him and the show the same way I do with SGA.

Though interestingly, most of the fans I know who do fan on Who tend to focus on particular relationships - the Rose/Ten shippers, or Doctor/Jack, or going back to old Who, I know of fans who were Fourth Doctor/Sara Jane Smith fans, pretty much exclusively. The one person hardcore into Who on my flist now writes Doctor/Master, which is one of the few permanent relationships running through the entire show (she does it permanent, too - I think she's written four different incarnations of the Doctor with the associate Masters!)

[argosy.livejournal.com]

eta: Oops, sorry, I put my reply in the wrong place.

But I also wanted to tell you that I love how you lay things out with A and B here. hee hee hee.

[argosy.livejournal.com]

he first time I saw the scene I almost missed what was going on, because I was waiting for the "so I need you to make sure he only takes ten (or twenty) years okay?" from Rodney. I was convinced that what Rodney needed from Sheppard was to keep Todd in line and keep him from killing him. So it threw me when I realized that Rodney was going to let Todd kill him. I was a bit confuzzled. So then I figured that Rodney just wanted John's emotional support since he was doing such a hard thing. I like your take that he wants John to keep the Marines away.

So anyway... Yes, Rodney was very noble and brave and John loves him. The end. You have to really loathe Rodney to see his actions as selfish, I think. Then again, I once read someone's post where they were convinced that the opening scene in Outcast (where Rodney says he wishes he could go to Earth with John for the funeral)must have been written for Teyla (because she was John's real friend, not Rodney), and Rachel couldn't do it for some reason so they gave it to Rodney. It takes all kinds, I guess. Go figure.
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[sholio]

Then again, I once read someone's post where they were convinced that the opening scene in Outcast (where Rodney says he wishes he could go to Earth with John for the funeral)must have been written for Teyla (because she was John's real friend, not Rodney), and Rachel couldn't do it for some reason so they gave it to Rodney.

ahahaha, I've seen that too. :D I realize I'm totally biased in Rodney's favor (and, incidentally, I was equally annoyed at people who suggested that Ronon had gone with John in "Outcast" because Rodney asked him too -- like Ronon isn't Sheppard's friend too!). But ... REALLY! Like you said, it takes all kinds.

[argosy.livejournal.com]

Hee, yeah, how long ago was that post? And it's still burned in my memory because of the sheer level of wtf for me. I mean if you want to rewrite your own version of SGA in fic where Rodney and John are not friends, okay. But to claim that they are not friends on the show despite the mountain of canon that says that they are? The mind, it boggles.

[sholio]

I know! I don't think I'll ever forget it! I mean, if someone doesn't like John and/or Rodney, or enjoy watching their scenes together, that's certainly their prerogative. But just because you don't like a character relationship, to insist that it therefore doesn't exist at all despite the HUGE amount of canon evidence, with increasingly far-fetched rationalizations to explain away all of their many, many friendship scenes ... WHY?!

[terribilita.livejournal.com]

God, I'm totally butting in here, but I know the exact post you're talking about too. And I remember reading agreements in the comments and my head almost exploded.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I find the suggestion of Rodney asking Ronon to go a bit less off-putting, only because it's more difficult for Ronon & Teyla to go to Earth - there's (presumably) paperwork and whatnot, plus Rodney knows Earth funeral customs best. So Rodney is the most logical one to accompany John back, and I could see the whole team assuming this. In that case I see it along the lines of Rodney mentioning, "I can't make it," and Ronon going, "Okay, me then," more than Rodney outright asking (Teyla's pretty much out at that point, because John turning up with an unmarried pregnant woman as his escort would invite way more questions than he'd care to field...)

(I admit I'm biased, though; much as I love the team, there's a part of me that wants John & Rodney's friendship to be special, that wants Rodney to be John's first choice for such brotherly duties...I'm a bad team-fan! *feels guilty*)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah - I was actually thinking Rodney was going to offer his life to Todd when he was first trying to convince him to do the programming, and was disappointed he didn't (I loooove me some sacrificial!Rodney!) So then when Rodney went to John I totally flipped out. My impression always was that Rodney wanted emotional support from John (say goodbye and ask him to read his eulogy again) but also more practical assistance. Rodney's used to John's help with tricky situations, and he couldn't just throw himself under Todd's wheels; someone would need to understand it was a willing sacrifice, so Todd wouldn't be executed on the spot once Rodney was gone.

I've seen some fans argue that John & Rodney aren't really friends - that Rodney wants John's friendship as sort of a geek-craving-the-popular-kid's-approval thing, and John just barely tolerates Rodney's presence because they're coworkers, and also John's a really nice stand-up guy who doesn't want to be mean to Rodney's face. The first couple seasons, I can kinda see where they get this, but it becomes difficult to sustain around "Echoes" when John is seeking out Rodney's company; and by now, after "The Shrine," all I can do is point and laugh at them. Loudly. Heh.

[madsqueeble.livejournal.com]

I am currently feverishly shipping Mebius and Hikari from Ultraman Mebius. There's much more subtext between Mebius/Mirai and Ryuu, but Ryuu lost his temper once at the end of a crappy period and said 'Ultraman doesn't understand human feelings...he's not (our) ally', so no nookie for him. Ever.

With that said, there are people out there who write awesome Ryuu/Mirai fics, stuff that even inspires things in my Mebi/Hikari and pushed me to actually start a fandom blog. There's a fair bit to explore in that pairing, so I'll read it even if I want to take a knife to Ryuu myself. And like mecurtin says, I DO want Mebi to be happy. So if he IS happy with Ryuu, I'mma shut up, sit down and enjoy the fluffy.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Thank you, this does clarify things!
Hmm...I think that might be what it comes down to - while I have favorite characters, my OTPs tend to be stronger; I go for favorite relationships first and chars second. And I tend not to like/be interested in relationships involving chars I don't like/aren't interested in - I'll put the relationship above the individual char's happiness. While as many fans put the char first - "as long as X is happy". That argument doesn't work for me emotionally, it's just not how I fan, but it does make sense (and is probably the healthier attitude! ^^;)

[madsqueeble.livejournal.com]

In this case, let's just say I think Mebi will be happiER with Hikari. For one thing, he's not a xenophobic tw...it. Ahem. (='_'=)

[katikat.livejournal.com]

I love John Sheppard. I can read him in any genre, any pairing. Even het. I ready McShep, Ronon/John, Cam/John... anything. But to read a pairing where I detest one of the chara... ugh, bonkers much?

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

A few folks above have explained it in ways I can understand, but no, it's definitely not how I fan!

[theclexfactor.livejournal.com]

No, I don't do this. It's pretty much why I've gone hardcore Clark/Bruce and have to be in the mood for Clex nowadays. It's not even that I hate Lex because I don't, I just lost a lot of love for him over these last three seasons and can't imagine Clark still wanting to be with him though I don't doubt that he still has love for Lex. But with comics canon being so wonderfully gay (especially the S/B title) I can't help but LOVE SuperBat. And it helps that, even though that fandom on LJ is considerably smaller than the SV!Clex fandom, there are still a number of wonderful writers that I look forward to reading. Plus a couple of them are converts *eg*

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I can read Clark/anyone, but I can't do this with either Lex or Bruce, and I actually love Bruce a lot. I just can't stand him with anyone else, lol. (Unless it's Bruce/other with his secret love for Clark...then it's okay *g*)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah...I rarely fall out of love with a char I love; I'll usually reject the show first. So in the case of Lex & Clark, I pretty much ignore most of the later seasons (the multiple canons for Superman make this easy!) I'm used to this - I've had a riverboat on the Nile for a long time! XP Clex is a bit odd for me anyway, because I usually go for fluffier pairings - but they're OTP enough for me that even though I agree Clark would probably be happier with Bruce, I can't help but still want Clark/Lex over anything.

And yes, I have some favorite chars that I can see with anyone, but others I can't split up. Partly because I'll have little interest in reading about my non-favorites, and partly because I'll become obsessed with a particular reading of a pairing and won't bear it otherwise. So even though Lex is my favorite, I can't really get into Lex/other unless, as you say, it's Lex/other with his secret love for Clark (he & Bruce will just have to battle it out! XD)

[naye]

...yeah, I'm not going to touch this one with an eleven foot pole. *g* I'm already at the limit of how much I don't get this I can take, what with being one of the few people around the fandom who doesn't want to kill SGU with fire.

(But, really. RODNEY! How - why - what?? Yes, he is arrogant and bad with people, but he is also sweet and caring and he tries. *pets*)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Fandom's kinda a volatile place these days, huh? ^^;

But to heck with the Rodney-haters! More for us (and John!) XPPP

[nymphaea1.livejournal.com]

I have run into this problem with pairings and it usually leads me to stop writing the pairing. I feel like once it's reached that point I can't do justice to the pairing. I can sometimes get it back by focusing on canon and why I loved the hated character though. 99% of the time if I've fallen out of love with a character it's because he's fandom's favorite and I get tired of reading him as this perfect victim. That attitude is what made me stop reading any Lex fic in SV and it's taken the shine off of my Rodney affection too. Which is of course my own fault and it just means I need to re-watch some earlier episodes to reconnect with the character.

I do tend to avoid authors who have wildly different levels of affection for the two people in a pairing because I feel like it inevitably skews characterization more than I can bear. I feel like I'm reading the author/Rodney for instance, which is sincerely cool if you're into that, but it's not my personal thing so I'll simply pass.

I did have similar thoughts about Miller's Crossing, although I wouldn't take it that far. I do think Rodney knows enough about Sheppard's extreme inability to let harm come to his team that he had to know at least on some level that Sheppard would do all in his power to stop it. And I do think it's selfish in any case to put your suicide on someone else. I agree Sheppard's actions were somewhat selfish as well, but I don't think Rodney has the slightest right to feel any umbrage at it as he did put it on him. Especially considering he's had a first row view of the lengths Sheppard will go to protect his own. Rodney's an adult. I think he can be allowed to be responsible for the consequences of his own actions.

I do get slightly vexed that when Sheppard at the end of season one sacrifices himself in face of pretty much certain death he's called selfish and suicidal and when Rodney offers his life at the end of Miller's Crossing it's an act of loving self-sacrifice.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hmmm - that's an interesting case. I've don't think I've ever had a character that I originally liked that I started to hate - I've had hated chars I've learned to like, and I've had chars I've felt neutral about that I start to dislike. But I don't usually go from like to hate. I will start to hate certain pairings, and I will hate certain characterizations in fanfic (or sometimes in canon) but once I love a char, that pretty much stays a constant for me.

Much as I love Rodney, even I have trouble reading fics skewed too much in his favor - part of the reason I love him is because he is such a flawed personality, and he's not as interesting if those flaws are taken away.

Regarding "Miller's Crossing" (these are all my own interpretations, my own views of the chars; YMMV. As I just said, I like Rodney for his flaws; so too do I like John better when I see him as a flawed character):

Rodney's an adult. I think he can be allowed to be responsible for the consequences of his own actions.

Which is why I call Sheppard selfish, because Sheppard denies Rodney that responsibility. There's no way Rodney could've given his life to Todd alone - he needed someone to make sure Todd finished the nanite reprogramming after he was dead. So naturally Rodney went to his teammate for help, and he gives no sign that he was expecting John to react as he did. Instead of accepting John's refusal, Rodney begs him to let him go through with it; and when John still refuses, Rodney tries to go behind his back and give himself to the Wraith anyway.

While Rodney's seen John do a lot for his team, he'd never seen John refuse to let a teammate choose to sacrifice themselves (at least as far as I recall) - and he has seen John choose to sacrifice himself, so how could he have known that John wouldn't allow him to make the same choice. It's akin to John ordering Rodney to vent the air in "Midway", even though it could've killed John - and Rodney obeys then, honoring John's choice. John is willing to put his sacrifice on Rodney's conscience; but John won't let Rodney put his sacrifice on John's conscience in turn - he'd rather put another death on both his and Rodney's consciences. It was Rodney's choice to offer his own life, but John changes the rules and offers someone else's - that's why I call him selfish.

(I reiterate - I am not criticizing Sheppard for his double standard; on the contrary, I absolutely love John for it. I think it's selfish and noble and frighteningly, brilliantly human, beautiful proof of how deeply John can love.)

Really, I think most self-sacrifice is both selfish and noble, and to my mind Rodney's offer in "Miller's Crossing" and John's flight with the nuke in "The Siege" are comparable. I wouldn't put down John's sacrifice; it was a damn brave act, however much it might've hurt his friends.
(I don't believe John's suicidal, either; he's maybe a bit too willing to throw himself into harm's way for the sake of his loved ones, but if he wanted to be dead he would've been a long time ago. Suicidal types don't last long in Pegasus...!)

[littlehollyleaf.livejournal.com]

Sadly I haven't, and probably never will, entered the Stargate fandom, so I've been rather removed from here recently. You raise an interesting question about shipping though.

I don't think I've ever actively HATED any side of my pairings, but it is true I tend to lean towards one of them more than the other most of the time.

A kinda exception at the moment, however, is the Clex. But it's complicated. Because the truth is, as the show is AT THE MOMENT, I HATE Clark Kent. But I like the Clex because I think Clark was A BETTER PERSON with Lex...

So, could that be a factor, perhaps? You can dislike a character on their own, but like them when they are put with another?

Of course, it's not that simple with me either, because I DID like Clark early on in the show, but now he's developed really badly and I don't. So when I think of Clex it's the Clark I USED to like that I'm thinking of, naturally. But the possibility of liking someone only in connection to someone else that this realisation flagged up was interesting.

Does that help your contemplations any? :p

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

A couple people have mentioned Clark and the Clex...though for me it works as it does for you; I don't like Clark as he is in the show now, but I like Clark as he used to be, as he is supposed to be (considering he's supposed to be a hero!) So I can't really say that I hate Clark, only that I hate how Clark is written. Which is somewhat different, at least to me...

But it's an interesting point, that idea of disliking Clark except when he's with Lex, because he's better for being with Lex. I wonder if sometimes what people dislike about a char is that they're refusing to love one's favorite char? So if they pair them up, then the reason to dislike them goes away, and they become a liked char. ...Or something like that!

[littlehollyleaf.livejournal.com]

I wonder if sometimes what people dislike about a char is that they're refusing to love one's favorite char?

Yes. Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Because ultimately what you want is for your favourite character to be happy, and if that means they have to be with a character you don't like that's what SHOULD happen :p Funny the way the mind works isn't it?

Now, the real question is, are you ever gonna return to SV long enough to finish that wicked alternate reality fic you started a while ago? :P

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Ehehheh - umm, hopefully yes? ^^; I really want to finish it! I just am...very easily distracted!

[jakrar.livejournal.com]

*pokes nose in to second littlehollyleaf's query*

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I am totally planning on finishing it! Absolutely! I just...Rodney McKay is very distracting ^^; Soorrrry!

[katheli.livejournal.com]

Actually, I don´t care much about SGA (dunno why, just never hit my buttons right, I guess ^^;;) but I know what you mean.
I´ve always enjoyed reading Spike/Xander from the Buffy-verse, although I never liked Xander much. However, I love Spike.
Now, there´s Spander fic that makes me like Xander (because he isn´t as annoying as in canon)and then there´s fic that makes me HATE him.
I think that depends on which character the fic focuses on, which character the author obviously likes more.

Like with your Clex-stuff.^^ Never cared much for Clark, but I absolutely adore that pairing because a Clark with Lex is just much more likeable than a Clark with Lana.

What´s funny though is, that there are actually stories, let´s say about Lex/Clark where Lex is so CLEARLY favoured that I start liking Clark (only in the story) more. I had that problem with Jack/Daniel from SG and Jack/Ianto from TW as well. While in the shows I emphasize with the less-favoured characters (aka Daniel and Ianto), in most stories I end up rooting for the other character.

The mind of a fangirl is a strange thing.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I don't usually care for fics that show a strong bias toward one character - as I said, though I tend to have favorites, I usually like both characters in a pairing. Just one more than the other. So I don't know if I've ever had the case that reading a fic biased toward one char makes me like the other char more. In my most recent post about liking/disliking characters, however, a couple people have mentioned this very phenomenon - that hating on a character will often predispose them to like that character (feeling sorry for them?) - so you're not alone!