black and white and read only in specific fan circles

[xparrot]

OTW announced the preliminary stages of an archived zine collection: The Fan Culture Preservation Project. To me this sounds incredibly awesome - it's not a zine lending library (which I'd really love) but it's a chance for older zines to survive for future fans. Considering my current beloved MUNCLE has some 40 years of fic, but the vast majority of it is only available in zines, and the earliest of that has pretty much vanished without a trace...yeah, awesome!

Reading the comments on the posts, however, it seems like a few ziners (er, if that's the term?) are really distressed by the project's existence. Some of it is legal concerns - worry about authors being targeted for copyright violation, especially as a lot of zine authors published under their real names. While I think such concerns are far-fetched (especially given the nature of the collection; I worked in a university library special collections department for a few years, they're not exactly high-traffic areas), I can understand why it might worry folks, in our litigious age.

But more than that, it seems like some ziners are perturbed by the thought that scholars and non-fans might be able to read their zines. Or that people in general might be able to read them (with a fair bit of effort; they're not going to be online or anything, at least not without authorial permission, and I trust OTW to remain faithful to that.) The thought that they'd be theoretically accessible to anybody, even a non-fan, is upsetting to the point of making these people never want to make another zine.

And I admit...this baffles me. I can't understand this viewpoint at all. Then again, I have a hard time understanding people who pull all their fanfic from the web just because they're tired of a fandom. If one is worried about legal issues, that's one thing; and if you're actually being harassed for writing slash or something, I guess I can see it. And if you don't want feedback, positive or negative, if you're tired of talking or thinking about a story, fine. But that you just don't want your stories being read, by people who want to read them...I don't get it. It doesn't make sense to me.

I'm guilty of putting the reader's rights above the author's, I guess. It horrifies me that a story could be lost, merely because the author doesn't like it anymore. Cut ties with it, fine; post it anonymously, deny you ever wrote it, sure, that's your choice. But to erase it, delete it, make disappear a work of art that someone enjoyed, that someone remembered, that made someone think or feel, so that they can never re-experience it, or share it with anyone else - that upsets me. It feels like censorship, even if it's the artist's own; like a fundamental denial of what art is. Like it's a crime, a sin, to murder a story, even if you're its creator; like a story's right to exist trumps anyone's wish for it to be gone. That art is forgotten is inevitable, but that it is lost because it was deliberately buried, deliberately hidden - that's tragedy.

Which is why things like OTW excite me so, because they're fighting against that loss. And it's such a strong feeling in me that I get really, really tempted to say damn the fans who disagree, because they're wrong.

(It occurs to me that this emotional response is probably as extreme as that of those fans who do vehemently disagree; they likely think I'm just as fundamentally wrong. But it's awfully difficult for me to see it their way; even if intellectually I sort of understand a creator's right to control access to their work, emotionally my convictions are hard to shift. I just can't grok it.)

(I also admit there's a lot of selfishness in my way of thinking - there's MUNCLE fic out there that I want to read, damn it! What do I care if the authors like their stories anymore - I'll enjoy them, and that's what matters! XP)

ETA: Though I was responding to a few dissenting voices on the OTW blog, francescacoppa explains in comments here that the majority of zine fans in the OTW, or who the OTW has heard from, are in favor of the archive project. Most of us do want these things preserved, and shared, and I can't say how happy I am to hear this. It does match with my previous experience with old school fans; in the various older fandoms I've been in, the established fans have usually been welcoming and very ready to share the wealth of years of fanning with crazy new fans, to my gratitude and delight.

ETA2: I was linked on metafandom, it seems. Erm. With all my raving about freedom of information, I really ought to be able to remember that other people beyond my circle of friends might come read my idiocies. Anyway, welcome. I do have one request: if you are going to post anonymous replies, please sign them - you don't have to use your actual name or handle; Anonymous X-Y-Z is fine, but if there are different anonymouses posting, I'd like to be able to keep them straight.

Comments

[xjestx.livejournal.com]

This is very interesting for me - synchronicity or something - because I was recently contemplating setting up a lending library for Man from UNCLE zine fic. I put out a feeler on network_command...and, um, it resulted in enough upset email replies to make me drop the project.

I don't understand the attitude, but then, I was never a part of that culture so maybe I shouldn't just assume that it's something I will automatically be able to understand. I truly admire the amount work and the amount of heart that goes into making a zine. I would love to see a record of that preserved, though, in the end it's not really my place to decide how that should happen.

In any case, I'm happy that OTW is taking it on. :)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Out of curiosity, what were the problems people were having with the lending library? Because that wouldn't have the copyright concerns or the non-fan-reader concerns that the OTW project is raising, so I'm wondering why it would have upset people so.

I really admire the amount of work that goes into a zine, too - and it's such a different form of fanning, a different way of reaching out to other fans. Different communities, different rules...

As a fan-writer myself, though, I have such a hard time understanding why someone *wouldn't* want their stories read by people. I pimp my fics out all over the place, I'm always thrilled to know someone's reading my fic. That you wouldn't want your stories shared with other fans...I really just don't get it.

(Especially when it's zines, which are sold - not for profit, true, but there's still a certain level of ownership there that doesn't exist with freely distributed internet fic. Someone who's actually spent money on a zine, don't they have a right to share it - not making copies, but lending out the hardcopy zine itself - with anyone? But that doesn't seem to be kosher with some ziners.)

Ah, I don't know - at any rate, yeah, I'm glad OTW's doing this!

[ariadne83]

The thing that gets me about people destroying their own work is that you can never un-destroy it. I learned that the hard way - I burned years' worth of notebooks when I finished high school, and I really regret it now, eight years later.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's definitely an issue, too - though I think that's more personal to the artist. I don't think you can really argue that you should preserve a work against the artist's wishes for the sake of the artist; they might regret it later, but they might not, and either way it's their decision, their responsibility. But a work, once published, belongs to the audience as well (to my mind) and for that it should be preserved, I feel...

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

Twenty-thirty years ago, folks wrote and read under different circumstances. They wrote for a relatively small circle of friends -- zine sold apporx. 100-150 issues in a run. If you sold more than that, you were doing well.

I am curious to hear the reasons folks give for being upset. I'm not saying I don't understand it ---because circumstances have changed so much, that I guess I do.

Back when File 40 was set up, a lot of zine folks didn't want their work put up on the web. Now, perhaps, they don't like the idea that what was created for a small closed community will be available outside that community.

Also, a lot of folks don't like being studied by scholars, particularly those who are not fans as well. I can see that too. In MFU fandom, we've had the Margaret Meads come through trying to study us like we were colorful native cultures and it was insulting, especially since they weren't giving us anything in return.

But I received lots of info and support when I did my diss ---and in return, I've always shared what info I had and made it possible for folks to get the diss at half price (unfortunately, no longer an option)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes...my perspective is definitely limited; I've grown up in the Information Age, as it were, and I tend to fall on the extremely liberal side of any intellectual property debate. Very much in the "art and information want to be freeee~!" camp. And as a fan-writer myself, I'm always happy to get more readers; I published a few zine stories a while ago, but prefer having my work online because it's more accessible to more people. So the idea of *wanting* a closed, limited audience is utterly alien to me.

Even give that, though, it surprises me how, hmm, personally, I find myself taking this. While I can theoretically appreciate fans being disturbed by their one-time small, closed circles being opened to the general public (even on a limited basis) - emotionally, the thought of totally *losing* the thousands of zines and stories and art out there, all those creations that fans put so much work and love into - that thought is so upsetting to me that I'm struggling to respect the wishes of fellow fans.

Then, too, when it comes to fandom scholarship, I think that's been changing, too; while I think there are some of the "anthropologist" types still around, the majority of aca-fen these days are fans themselves, studying what they love.

But even if that wasn't so, I personally think it's worth bearing the scrutiny of a few condescending scholars to preserve zines (in some format or other) for generations of fans to come...and it's honestly hard for me to wrap my mind around the idea that not all fans agree. Am working on it, though!

[st-crispins.livejournal.com]

BTW: there is already MFU fan material at the U of Iowa, preserved in the Norman Felton Collection (I was there around '97)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

That is way cool! Man, I'd love to work with a fan collection...it's things like this that make me think maybe I should go back to working in libraries.

[sholio]

*nods* I've been experiencing something similar with Wiseguy just recently, where most of the fic is in zines and most of the zines are obscure and hard to find. After having gotten used to finding fanfic for free on the Internet, where at most all you have to do is subscribe to a locked journal or ask for a password, it's disconcerting (and, in a way, fascinating) to slip into a completely different subculture, where fic has to be carefully rationed and getting a new zine is cause for squee. I'm finding that I actually enjoy the search, but I still would rather have more fic more readily available, and I have a hard time wrapping my mind around the mindset that not only is this sort of decreased access (in both the physical and financial sense) a virtue, but it's one that has to be preserved even at a cost.

When I first got into fandom, even with online fandom, it really amazed and baffled me how proprietary many fen are about the dissemination and editing of their fanworks. "Do not use my OCs in your stories!" "Do not use my icons as bases!" "Do not make icons from my fanart!" I ... I just can't figure out how so many people reconcile that attitude with being in fandom, where the whole point is to build on someone else's creation, and yet they turn around and hold their own as close to the vest as possible.

The zine thing is complicated, I guess, because not only is there the desire for absolute control over one's stories (which I find hypocritical and even downright unethical in a fan, as we're all playing in other people's sandboxes to begin with) but also, I think, it's an outgrowth of nostalgia for zine subculture -- I don't know for sure, but I suspect that zine fen might not want their stories more widely available because they like the status quo, where zines are rare and the search for a new zine is part of the experience. Making the zine, or the story, widely available takes away that part of the fun for them. Control of access is very closely tied up with how the whole thing works, and how the social aspect of it functions as well. I used to be involved with making, selling and trading minicomics, and the situation is similar -- it's very hands-on, very personal; you actually have at least some social interaction with most of the people who read your comic. It's a totally different thing from putting it up on the web and interacting with anonymous strangers who mostly don't comment, and face-to-face minicomics subculture is still thriving in the era of the Internet because a lot of people like that. For me, though, I didn't really have a choice about going to the web, because now that I'm living in Alaska again, I can't afford to go to small press comic shows, meet and trade with other people. I think I'm more aware of the access issues now that I'm personally experiencing them, because in addition to the risk of some stories and zines just disappearing forever, it also puts quite a barrier in place between old fen and new (or disadvantaged) fen, who either can't afford to participate or just don't know the seeekrit handshake (the names and addresses to write to for zines).

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

because not only is there the desire for absolute control over one's stories (which I find hypocritical and even downright unethical in a fan, as we're all playing in other people's sandboxes to begin with)

This, this, this. Emblazoned on a t-shirt, a sign, a billboard. Yes!

Otherwise - this:

but also, I think, it's an outgrowth of nostalgia for zine subculture -- I don't know for sure, but I suspect that zine fen might not want their stories more widely available because they like the status quo, where zines are rare and the search for a new zine is part of the experience.

Wow, okay, this makes a lot of sense to me. And it's obvious when I think about it, but I really didn't see it before. But, yes, holding onto what you have - with the old-school ziners (or your minicomic circles) - it's not really about privacy (though that's how they're wording their arguments) but about community, about preserving the community, the specialness of it. It's about that particular precious sort of inclusion that feels like exclusion to anyone looking in from the outside.

(It's akin to the fans of indie bands who get outraged when their band makes it big, because then everyone loves them and it's not special anymore...)

And I can get that, emotionally - it is exciting to go on a zine-hunt, and it is a way to make friends and meet people, and it's a style of community that is vanishing into the internet's electronic ether, and I'm sad myself to see it go. (Heck, I miss aspects of mailing list communities and email LoC, too!)

At the same time - most of those communities are going to vanish no matter what; the old out-of-print zines will be lost and gone. And if we want any of them to survive, they have to go public to some extent, they have to be accessible. And then, too, yes, it's unfair to fans who can't afford to buy zines, or don't know where to buy them, or can't buy them because they've been long out of print and no one wants to sell their few precious copies...

(And I think what these fans are missing, too, is that this particular OTW project is still, comparatively speaking, personal, small-scale - technically it's a public collection, but special collections are not exactly easy-access. The only people who are going to be able to get to those zines are those who really want them...and can pay for them, either in getting themselves to Iowa, or paying for limited photocopies...so for now, anyway, it's not flinging the doors open. It's about preservation, not open-access, at least not yet...though speaking as a reader myself, I hope the access comes!)

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

to erase it, delete it, make disappear a work of art that someone enjoyed, that someone remembered, that made someone think or feel, so that they can never re-experience it, or share it with anyone else - that upsets me. It feels like censorship, even if it's the artist's own; like a fundamental denial of what art is. Like it's a crime, a sin, to murder a story, even if you're its creator; like a story's right to exist trumps anyone's wish for it to be gone. That art is forgotten is inevitable, but that it is lost because it was deliberately buried, deliberately hidden - that's tragedy.

Yes. This. People deleting their fic off the web and erasing it from the record makes the archivist in me twitch -- it's destruction of information. It's like book burning. Maybe it's not *important* information in the grand scheme of things the way, say, government documents or scientific papers are, but fic written and publically posted or distributed in zine form is part of fandom's shared history. Destroying it or making it impossible to access is destroying part of that history.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

People deleting their fic off the web and erasing it from the record makes the archivist in me twitch -- it's destruction of information.

Yes! *inner archivist twitches and like a electrified fish out of water*

I think the point of OTW is that we get to decide what's "important" - these are works that matter to us, so we should preserve them for us. Hey, we're revolutionizing the way fiction works - it's not as significant as curing cancer, but it's still pretty cool!

[michelel72.livejournal.com]

I can't say I understand that level of reluctance, at all.

When I was in high school, I bought a Doctor Who book from the local comic shop. I just assumed that since I bought it there, it was all legal 'n' stuff. It was hardbound and everything! In retrospect, it could very well have been a fan work -- it was a collection of short stories and artwork, all about the first five (or six?) Doctors. I have no idea what happened to this book; I may have sold it, or given it to my brother, or left it in my parents' house, which is now gone. I really want that book now!

And knowing that there is so much out there for the shows I currently enjoy, so much that I'll never see because I just can't devote the energy to tracking it all down ... maybe I'm a "lesser fan" by some lights for not spending that energy, but I'm still saddened. (As a writer, though, I love knowing that in 20 years I can add a note to my internet-posted first fictions explaining that, hey, it's old and I'm now embarrassed by X, Y, and Z, so please be kind ... and that note is automatically part of the experience for any new reader, plus becoming part of the experience for any prior reader who might come back. Hard to do that with a physical zine!)

Still -- I don't buy the whole "information wants to be free" thing. Art is work, just as deserving of recompense as programming is; if everybody just pirates everything, there's no incentive for anyone to produce anything worth pirating. As far as I'm able to determine, when I write fanfic I'm producing a transformative work and thereby in the clear regarding copyright; if I were attempting to make a profit off it, the legality would be murkier, but I don't.

But people get more passionate in general than I can really fathom. I recently heard of someone deleting one archive of work in what sounded to me like a fit of pique, and I thought it all sounded kind of silly and self-defeating. (An audience is useful. Don't spit on them. Otherwise you just end up shouting into the void and that gets depressing.) Then I saw someone else declaring that the writer had stolen from this reader because once fiction is posted, it belongs to the readers, without condition, and the writer had wounded this reader personally with malice aforethought by making it go away. And, no. Yes, the reader's life may be poorer now, and certainly the author is inviting a fandom divorce, but ... writer's fiction on writer's website. To me, the writer did most of the work of creation (the reader does contribute) and deserves at least some control over the resulting product. I don't think either side is perfectly right ... and I really don't get the pitched-battle approach.

I kind of want to tell everybody to just chill. I ... get that a lot. Heh.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

(As a writer, though, I love knowing that in 20 years I can add a note to my internet-posted first fictions explaining that, hey, it's old and I'm now embarrassed by X, Y, and Z, so please be kind ... and that note is automatically part of the experience for any new reader, plus becoming part of the experience for any prior reader who might come back. Hard to do that with a physical zine!)

That is a really neat summation of the possibilities of the internet - I haven't been thinking much about the future (even though my first online fic were posted...oh dear lord, over 12 years ago now! ...and I actually do have notes on them saying, "well, this isn't the way I write now...") but, yes, the changing experience, while still preserving everything, that is nifty. Reprintings and 2nd editions in real-time...I like being a fan in the World of Tomorrow, I gotta say ^^

I don't buy the whole "information wants to be free" thing. Art is work, just as deserving of recompense as programming is; if everybody just pirates everything, there's no incentive for anyone to produce anything worth pirating.

Hmm, but at least right now we're seeing an upswing in creative production, it seems to me; people are writing for free, drawing for free, creating for free, because unlimited access to art inspires them to create more art. That might change, but for now, at least, it seems like art itself might be incentive enough, for many an artist.

(That being said, I'm not for a total free-for-all; it's more that I oppose intellectual property rights that place undue limits on access. "Undue" being subjective, obviously, and I'm thinking less about fandom, more about things like "orphan works" that can't be reprinted because the copyright holders are MIA. And then, a lot of the IP safeguards like DVD region encoding aren't about recompensing the creator but recompensing the distributors, anyway...)

I kind of want to tell everybody to just chill. I ... get that a lot. Heh.

I know the feeling!

[werewolfling.livejournal.com]

Sometimes, people are very silly. I have some bad stories out there, terrible terrible writing, I read them and think "OMG, what was I thinking". I don't pull them (except one, but it was self-indulgence at it's peak, and only online on a angelfire page) Usually, if I look back at a story and find it doesn't fit my standard, I revise it until it's better. It's the only proof I have that I'm actually improving as a writer, now I'm writing like a sixth grader instead of third, so yay! I'm progressing, doesn't matter that I've been out of college for about eight years. >_<

All and all I agree with you on the pulling of stories, I don't understand why people do it either. I had one author, did great great great GREAT Yu Yu Hakusho fanfiction, had her own URL and didn't share (didn't let others host her stories). When she decided she was going to pursue her "professional" writing, she shut her whole site down. I think I have one of her stories saved to my computer. I learned a lesson that day, if you love a story, save it and/or print it (have a bookcase of notebooks full of printed off fanfiction) 'cause who knows well it'll disappear.

Have some of your's saved that way, actually. Get Backers and Saiyuki ones, I think.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

These days I compulsively save any fanfic I enjoy reading, because I've seen enough authors take down their work (and enough sites vanish for various other reasons) that I'm paranoid (also Firefox's Scrapbook add-on makes fic-saving very simple...!)

I know of at least one writer who pulled her fanfic when she went pro, for understandable reasons - not only had she been posting under her real name, but some elements in her fanfic were paralleled in her pro-fic. While it still makes me sad that new fans will be deprived her fanfic, there were enough gray areas copyright-wise that vanishing it was probably wise. (There's also a Harry Potter author who pulled her fic when she went pro, I imagine for similar reasons, but she gave substantial warning, so that fans could save what they liked, and I'm guessing if you know who to ask you can still get hold of it; that's probably the best compromise.)

At any rate, I don't intend to ever pull my fic (but I'm still tickled to know you thought it worth saving! ^_^)

[severedscythe.livejournal.com]

I know what you mean about losing fic. I mean, I hate a lot of my old stuff. And I mean hate. It's hideous. But I was happy with it at the time and it reminds me of a place where I was genuinely relaxed and happy and loved and hey, if someone else enjoys it then go for it. They can read all they want.

Then again, that's the reason I've also not friendslocked my journal.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

A lot of my oldest fic, I can't bring myself to read; it's just too embarrassing. But I keep it up, because I know some people liked it, and I'm still happy someone enjoys it, even if I can't.

I can understand wanting to divorce oneself from one's fic, because it's embarrassing or it's just not "you anymore; and I can understand not caring about making your fic accessible anymore - closing your webpage because you can't be bothered to maintain it anymore. But to actively try to deny fans from seeing it, when it's already out there - to try to stop other fans from saving or sharing it...yeah, I just can't quite wrap my mind around that. I guess if a fic were really, horrendously embarrassing - badfic or genuinely offensive - I can see not wanting one's name associated with that. At the same time, to assume that most zines are lost and forgotten because the zine creators *wanted* them to be forgotten...that's a grievous mistake, and I feel that it's better to err on the side of preservation.

[bluemeanybeany.livejournal.com]

On a related point me and Serenaar met the Arundel UK lot here a few months ago and had lunch with them and they were lovely. They were definitely old school fans of the first generation variety. They were showing all the youtube fanvids and a wonderful women in her sixites had been filming them off the internet with her videocamera onto tape and then showing them at their little convention. She'd had no idea that you could send them via mediafire or youtuberip them, or even that we could make a d.v.d with them all on. They'd never heard of livejournal either. So if there wasnt a big sharing site like youtube they would just never have seen all the videos (think about how few people find the 'Sister Golden hair suprise' video that's not on youtube) Basically my point is if the vidders only sent their stuff to a select few like zines it would damage the connectiveness of the fandom. The Arundel lot said having the videos on youtube was like having new episodes of the programme to watch, which can only be a good thing. Without youtube (and mass distribution) we wouldnt know they were there and they wouldnt know we were here- and to my mind that's a bad thing.

Saying that GeorgieSmith sent us the dvd she made of all the youtube videos for the MediaWest Convention and it's frankly a thing of beauty. (with a squeey box and a dvd with the boys watermarked on it- gnine's on it) It's lovely. I'm all for making somekind of overall fan produced product if people should want one (zines/vids/artwork) I just think it should be mainly a collection of stuff previously published online.

love Shovewood

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes, differing levels of technical knowledge also play into this - that's "generational" more than age as well, because I know several older fans who are extremely tech-savvy and navigate the internet better than me. And then there are those who didn't really realize that fan culture had gone online. Conversely there are newer fans who don't realize that fandom's existed for years, offline...(MUNCLE is fascinating because there's such a cross-cut of fandom generations, from the brand-new to the original old guard!)

(think about how few people find the 'Sister Golden hair suprise' video that's not on youtube)

I don't think I've found this one - got a link?

[doro-chan.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I get the feeling that this problem is something the zine generation never faced. As far as I know, the danger that an academic or non-fan read a zine has always been present, and I just can't imagine that nobody ever copied a story to give it to a friend or read it. An academic might also be a fan, or s/he might be interested in studying the subject and buy zines. It happens, there are quite a few people who major in Japanese studies (like me) who have an interest in subcultures. And a non-fan might see the zine at a friend's house and start leafing through it.

As someone who mainly grew up (fannishly speaking) on the internet, one of the first things I learned was that once you put your stuff out there, you lose control over what happens with it, at least to a certain degree. Your stuff will be cached, people save it on their computer if they like it, maybe there will be screencaps - I can't control it. It's the same with zines: You can't control what happens to every physical copy of a zine you wrote for. You can't control who reads it. You never could, but I guess it was easier to ignore this fact before, because people didn't tell you what they did with them. The contributers could happily ignore the fact that whatever happened to their stories would be out of their control, because they were never faced with it, unlike fans on the internet.

I think it's sad that they don't want the zines to be available to anyone - because I'm interested in zines, and I would love to read some. Of course, that would only happen if the zines were digitized, since I'm living on the other side of the pond and can't afford the physical copies. Why do you publish if you don't want to be read, anyway?

'm guilty of putting the reader's rights above the author's, I guess. It horrifies me that a story could be lost, merely because the author doesn't like it anymore.

That's more or less what I feel too. I've heard a lot of people say that they deleted their stories recently, mostly after some person was desperately looking for it, and I just don't understand it. Yes, my old stuff is crap, but while I hate it with a passion, other people still like it. It's also a part of my personal history that I wouldn't want to lose.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

As someone who mainly grew up (fannishly speaking) on the internet, one of the first things I learned was that once you put your stuff out there, you lose control over what happens with it, at least to a certain degree.

I think this might be the crux of it - in modern internet times, we tend to think in terms of everything being permanent; it's really hard to erase something from the internet. It can be buried, but that's the best you can do. While as the original ziners, the possibility existed that their zines might spread around and be read by non-fans and such - but it was relatively remote, and if it did happen there was almost no chance they'd ever find out.

The OTW project isn't really that great a threat to this anonymity, because it is off-line and small-scale (even if they get hold of every zine ever, it's still only one library...) I suspect it's more what it represents (the possible eventual online digitalization of zines) that's worrying some people.

[erda-3.livejournal.com]

Huh, I'm old and ITA with this post. I paid for zines back in the day because it was the only way I knew of to get my hands on fanfiction. I hate to see these old stories lost even if they are bad they have nostalgia value.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Ah, I don't think this is an age thing - somewhat of a generation thing perhaps (internet generation vs zine generation) but even then, francescacoppa in the comments above tells me that far more zine fans are for this project than against it; the dissenting voices are only a drop in the fan-pond. Most of us do want these saved - for nostalgia value if nothing else, as you say (my nostalgia runs strong even if I wasn't really much part of zine culture ^^;)

my old 'ziner' thoughts

[valkyrie4clex.livejournal.com]

I started buying zines in 1979 when I ordered my 1st zine form D.V.Hise - after seeing it discussed in a copy of ENTERPRISE INCIDENTS put out by her spouse. I went from K/S to S/H to PROS and on- the last few zines I purchased were CLEX zines.
I enjoyed them - the editing (when done well); the artwork; I worked on some zines and saw the patience and work put in by the editors to have the appropriate artwork with the right story- placed in such and such a place in the story to give a certain effect. Often the result was beautiful.
But- I do not understand the people who would rather have things disappear than to be willing to have things archived or photocopied. I would say MOST of the zines I own are out of print now. some of the people involved with them are deceased. If stories were in a zine that was sold through the mail or at a convention to anyone other than a personal friend of ALL of the artists (writers/editors/publisher) - they were giving their work out to strangers and there was no longer any control. It could have ended up with someone who may or may not have liked it; shared it with others; photocopied it and sent it to their friends and acquaintances. They could have loved it; hated it; made fun of it; treasured it; hid it in their closets; drew funny mustaches on it. Complete control of it was gone one it it was published and sold. I know there is a much greater acknowledgment of this loss of control on the net but it was true even when the work was only in zines. [One of the reasons I never published anything I wrote- VERY sensitive skin here].
I am very sad that some really good fiction and art is being lost as people leave fandoms; zines are thrown out by angry significant others after a break-up [which happened to someone i know]; or just disappear as time goes by. It's much harder to find out about zines being sold- unless you're at a con or "know someone" it seems you're out of luck. From what I've heard from others going to different cons, there are nowhere NEAR the amount of zines out there to satisfy my desire for reading materials or in the fandoms/ pairings that I want to read.
I can see someone asking that "ARTIST's NAME WITHHELD" upon request or because of being unable to contact the person when archiving. I can see changing real names to ANONYMOUS - that prolific artist who existed even back in zines.
I hope more people who are afraid for whatever reason do come to change their mind because a lot of the old-timers were incredible artists and it's a shame that more people- even generations to come- won't be able to discover this for themselves.
We old women of the tribe called FANDOM have a responsibility to share with those who follow. I know I have shared VHS tapes; DVD's; zines; books; whatever I had that a fellow fan took an interest that I had to share [caveat- that I could expect to get returned to me -I'm not crazy].
That was my contribution to fandom and it always made me feel good. I'm sad to see that maybe that wasn't allowed in some people's POV but I'm 59 now and a little to old to change my ways. Just my 3 cents worth.

Re: my old 'ziner' thoughts

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

For what it's worth, from francescacoppa's comment above, it sounds like the majority of zine-fans agree with you! The few dissenters have points (reasonable and not) but most of us want these things saved, for ourselves and for fans to come. As a newer fan myself, I'm really happy to hear this - not surprised, really, because in most of the older fandoms I've been in, the established fans have always been friendly and welcoming to new fans, and pleased to share. But still, it's good to hear!

I can see someone asking that "ARTIST's NAME WITHHELD" upon request or because of being unable to contact the person when archiving. I can see changing real names to ANONYMOUS - that prolific artist who existed even back in zines.

In the case of this particular project, this isn't an issue; the public listings of the archives are only going to have fandom and zine title, no authors listed, due to privacy concerns. So if you already know what zine stories an author wrote, you'll be able to request them, but not otherwise.

Hmmm, Clex zines? Now I'm curious...

[justhuman.livejournal.com]

I'm for the archive.

I think there is some culture/technology gap going on too. At a slash con, several of the participants were among the original Trek Zine crowd. They sometimes did fannish history panels. They were happy to know that some of their zines were still in circulations. But they also knew about other authors that attempted to exert iron fisted control over the zines themselves - putting clauses for "no reselling" on them.

I think that a lot of them feared getting into trouble - especially true for the slash authors. The same fans told us about a master copy of a zine was destroyed in front of their eyes by a printer who was offended by piece of slash art that was PG at most.

A lot of the slash zine generation began in the 70s. To get a zine published you needed to front money, talk to a printer and then you were dealing with typewriters, carbon paper and white out to get your master copy. Because of these constraints, not everything got published and the ones that did tended to be higher quality stories.

The fans that put them out tended to be in their 20s or 30s -- a 12 year old with a Mary Sue didn't stand a chance. So now these fans are in their 50s, 60s and 70s. I could see how a grandmother now might simply want to be done with this thing she did when she was 25.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes, it does seem that the legal concerns are part of it. That aspect I understand better; I really don't think there is much of an issue now, but given the previous history, especially of slash...no, I can't blame people for being nervous.

(Destroying a master copy because of slash art? Oww...yes, I can definitely understand the nervousness!)

The fans that put them out tended to be in their 20s or 30s -- a 12 year old with a Mary Sue didn't stand a chance. So now these fans are in their 50s, 60s and 70s. I could see how a grandmother now might simply want to be done with this thing she did when she was 25.

This is the part that's tricky...because I can understand the feeling of wanting to be done with it. But if they want to be done with it to the point of wanting to see destroyed everything they ever published in a fandom...I just don't think that's fair to all the other fans. (especially since a lot of zines are anthologies - what if one author wants the zine gone but the others all want it saved, what then? Or what if the zine editor doesn't want their work included, but the author wants it preserved? The joint authorship of zines makes it especially convoluted, I should think...)

At any rate, the OTW archive isn't going to be publicly listing anyone's name, so I don't think either the legal or the privacy concerns are really an issue...

[(Anonymous)]

I think you are somewhat preaching to the choir here. Of course, this is LJ, internet fandom, where many are more or less fine with easy distribution of their work (and the others are ignored, dismissed, or talked down to).

Us ziners, well...one issue is the one of possible danger to our careers. Which still exists. Sure, pseudonyms and all, but then we got issues like racefail, where people still get named. You realize that even today, this can affect your chances to get work or even your careerquite a bit, right? We're not in some enlightened age yet. The mere fact that racefail was bad should show you that things aren't as easy as you think.

And if your fanfic got links to you (name, home email) because you were young, naive and foolish when you wrote it...
One of the reasons people like to take their fics down is that this will usually get done more easily than requests for edits of such details (which will be done after weeks or months, if ever). Also, wayback machines/google cache and the like are less likely to catch it anyway even if an edit happens.


(I also admit there's a lot of selfishness in my way of thinking - there's MUNCLE fic out there that I want to read, damn it! What do I care if the authors like their stories anymore - I'll enjoy them, and that's what matters! XP)

And this is the other reason. From many an author's point of view, this view absolutely stinks to the heaven. It's one of the main reasons I don't write much fanfic anymore - this entitlement complex of readers.
I've mostly written for my enjoyment, often in venues that gave me very little feedback, if any, so it's not as if I gained anything from it. I mostly shared it, because I thought to be nice, to help out filling space when a zine needed it, and so on.

For my published work, readers at least had to pay, so I can't complain they keep it. They bought it, after all.

And now people are seriously saying that my opinion doesn't matter: Theirs does. THIS is hypocritical. An author still puts a tremendous amount of work into a piece of fanwork, we should respect that. Yes, it might be a shame if your favorite fanfic is gone one day, but authors aren't feelingless automatons that solely exist for your pleasure.
It'd really be nice if the people who claim to enjoy your work would respect a simple choice like that for a change, and it wouldn't take over thirty emails to finally get something taken down from someone who archived it against your will.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

The OTW archive is not going to make names publicly available. They are not putting fanfic online, and the listings will only be fandom name and zine title, no authors names. The only way to get the name of an author would be to actually go to the archive and request the particular zine (which you couldn't take out of the archive; you could - for a fee - copy a few pages of it - probably around 10% of the total zine, with current fair use laws - but you couldn't get a copy for yourself.)

And this is the other reason. From many an author's point of view, this view absolutely stinks to the heaven. It's one of the main reasons I don't write much fanfic anymore - this entitlement complex of readers.

I admitted outright, my view is selfish. It's also biased on a particular side, as I said. I am a fan-writer myself, and I find the thought that readers would value my work enough to want to claim ownership of it exciting, not terrifying. This is a subjective point of view.

But it's not hypocritical that I believe a reader's right to a published story is as important as an author's; it's a different way of understanding fiction. The two views are, sadly, irreconcilable. I'm sorry about that. And I myself do respect an author's wishes; I wouldn't archive a story against an author's will.

But I do think that it's a tragedy when an author tries to delete a published story; I can't help that I think like that, it's just the way I'm made. And I also can't help but be truly glad to know that zines in some form will be preserved, even if it upsets some fans.

[(Anonymous)]

This really made me think. And this is what it made me think:

That I might want to share something with my community now, but I might regret it later, especially when the community's different.

That communities do change, hugely, especially these days--so whenever I show anything to a stranger, I'd better consider whether I'd want to share it with the entire world, or at least an unknown portion thereof.

That if I share my work with, basically, the world, then I'm risking having people get all grabby and entitled about it*--that people will act like it belongs to them more than it does to me... because they liked it? Enjoying something confers rights, now? Thinking about applying that concept to other things... a hearty ew is all I can really say.

That, therefore, I shouldn't share any of my fanworks outside my circle of friends.

Just thinking about it makes me feel twitchy about what I have put out there. Urgh....

*Immediately I'm thinking of the G. R. R. Martin thing. Haha, silly me, thinking people would only have that attitude when they were actually buying someone's work.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I don't know if you're the same anonymous as above...anyway.

That communities do change, hugely, especially these days--so whenever I show anything to a stranger, I'd better consider whether I'd want to share it with the entire world, or at least an unknown portion thereof.

This has always been true. A hardcopy zine could be given to anyone, sold to anyone. The internet has made this truth more evident, but it's not a new truth.

That if I share my work with, basically, the world, then I'm risking having people get all grabby and entitled about it*--that people will act like it belongs to them more than it does to me... because they liked it? Enjoying something confers rights, now? Thinking about applying that concept to other things... a hearty ew is all I can really say.

I wouldn't apply this concept of ownership indiscriminately. But I feel, as many do, that part of publication is surrendering a degree of ownership; it's the very nature of publication. If you give something to a stranger, then it belongs to them in part, and you can't take it back. Enjoying something does not confer rights - but giving something to someone does confer rights, and when you publish, you are giving your audience your work, and in the process you are giving up some (not all, but some) rights.

I am not for a complete free-for-all; I'm not arguing for, say, the mass digitalization and uploading of all zines, against the ziners' express wishes. But I don't think we should be obligated to destroy all copies of a printed zine that an author doesn't like anymore - and that's all that OTW is doing, really; seeing that all copies of zines do not get destroyed.

[fleurrochard]

I can't understand it as well.
And hey, in Germany, if you publish a fanzine you have to donate two copies to the National Library anyway (of course not anyone does that, because most fanzine publisher don't know that and the Library can only demand them if they know the zines exist - but if they know it, they do it.)
And a friend of mine, who is in fandom and also publishes books told me that it's actually the same in the USA - if you publish/distribute something there and the print run (?) is at least 25 copies, you have to deposit two copies to the Library of Congress. Apparently that's also true for fanzines and things like that.

(http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/mandatory_deposit.html
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ07d.pdf )

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Most ziners in the US don't know these laws (and from what I know they have to do with registered copyrights? and most zines aren't registered, even if they should be...) But, yeah, I wish more American ziners did know the rules, and donated to the Library of Congress, because then all this would be moot anyway; there'd already be an existing archive, so another one wouldn't cause such a stir; and the zines would be being preserved...

[trystings.livejournal.com]

I'm guilty of putting the reader's rights above the author's, I guess. It horrifies me that a story could be lost, merely because the author doesn't like it anymore.

God yes. I know it's an artist's prerogative to toss his work in the fire if he doesn't like it - but don't show it to us first and pass it around and have people enjoy it and express their gratitude for it and THEN toss it in the fire. The number of broken links I've followed on rec pages! Total frustration.

I don't know why authors would be against an on-line archived Zine Collection, other than that people at the time paid a lot of money for a printed Zine and some of these stories are only available in Zine Magazines (like a special limited edition, that's suddenly not special anymore, because everybody has access? I don't know).

I think it's a little late to claim fear of copyright violation repercussions at this point.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I don't know why authors would be against an on-line archived Zine Collection, other than that people at the time paid a lot of money for a printed Zine and some of these stories are only available in Zine Magazines (like a special limited edition, that's suddenly not special anymore, because everybody has access? I don't know).

The argument against an online archived collection is that not all authors who published in zines ever expected their work would be online. It's a pretty drastic change in medium, and it's upping the accessibility by a huge factor. So I can, to an extent, understand why some authors might be upset by such an idea. It's a similar principle to archiving online fic - it's generally considered bad form to archive an author's fic without asking them for permission first.

(The problem I have in understanding is that I honestly don't mind when someone archives my own fic without permission; as long as I'm clearly credited, I find it flattering more than abusive. I recognize this is subjective, and not an attitude shared by all or even most authors...but I do have a very hard time understanding the other side, because I simply am lacking the knee-jerk negative reaction.)

But the OTW project isn't about an online archive anyway; it's about a hardcopy non-lending library of zines, and yeah...I don't get why that's so terrifying.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

(here from metafandom)

The thought that they'd be theoretically accessible to anybody, even a non-fan, is upsetting to the point of making these people never want to make another zine.

Makes sense to me. It's like writing an lj post for your FL of ten people, having it metafandom'd, and being inundated by sixty total strangers telling you their opinions. 'I wasn't talking to *you*', basically.

Fannish consensus these days is that if you say anything that's not locked you are indeed talking to the entire internet, but that's not one's intutive reaction when first writing. Zines are much the same. They were produced for fans when fans were something approaching a secret society like the Masons. (OK, I'm exaggerating, but not much.) You might not know your readers personally but you knew they were fans-- One Of Us. To be read by mundanes who don't get it-- worse, to be read and dissected by mundane academics who don't get it and *publish*-- is a horrifying thought. When you write for friends in an old-fan sense of friend, you don't want to be read by faceless hordes o the uninitiated.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

What's confusing to me is that we're not talking faceless hoardes - this archive is not going to be online; it's not going to be linkable or Googleable. If this were a digital web archive, I'd understand people freaking out. But this is a hardcopy collection in a library; it's going to be theoretically accessible, but in practice to see the zines you'd have to go to the library and request them by title (not author, that's not going to be publicly catalogued) - you couldn't even browse the shelves, most likely. A non-fan academic could, potentially, access your zine, but the chances that they would are quite low. So why it would be so objectionable to have a single copy of your zine on a library shelf rather than, say, on somebody's coffee table - that's what I don't understand.

ETA: Actually, upon further reflection, I think one of the reason I was so confused by the ziner's attitude is that to me, zines always felt like I had *less* control than I did over web-published work. With web-work, it can be linked anywhere, but only I can edit my journal; I can change and update my words. While as a zine is daring to put out there, knowing that it can't be edited once printed, and that you'd likely never hear back from any readers - it's publishing into a void, who knows who'd be reading it! So it genuinely surprised me that some ziners felt like their work was spread in such limited, closed circles that having it in a library would be frighteningly open.

[epporsimuove (from livejournal.com)]

Hmm...I find this interesting because I am a scholar and a fan. I wonder if that makes a difference in exploring these older zines and fanworks.

Also, I have to agree with the posters above re: deleting from archives. In certain cases, I understand why the original author decided to remove the work, usually due to a shift in beliefs or ideals, but it does make me sad to think of all the great work out there that is just gone.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

As far as I know, the majority of aca-fen out there these days *are* fans, which adds an extra layer of confusion on the "don't want scholars reading my zines" question. Though that is recent; the first books written on fandom did tend to be condescending, tipping-over-the-anthill sociology, so I think when some older zine fans hear academics are looking at fandom, it's not with the understanding that many of those self-same academics are fans themselves, with more respect for the practice.

[franzeska]

*wanders by from google blogsearch*

I've heard people say that they originally got slash zines by knowing a person who knew a person, etc. Not only did they have to show up in person at some con to get them, but they also had to be approved on an individual basis by the zine creators to even know there was anything to buy. That's a bit extreme and certainly hasn't been the norm (well, as far as I know) in any zine culture in forever and ever, but I guess I can see how you'd be pretty sensitive about a library getting your stuff if that's the culture you were used to at one point.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hmm, yes, it seems like the slash zines especially were *way* underground, particularly in the beginning, so I guess if you started there you would be sensitive. Also, too, I think the "library" part of the archive makes people automatically assume it's a lending library, which is not the case. Special collections are quite private by nature, even if not technically passworded, and to even find out these zines exist, you're going to have to have some knowledge of fandom anyway; they're not on open shelves where any person off the street could come across them.

here via metafandom

[wendelah1]

I'm guilty of putting the reader's rights above the author's, I guess. It horrifies me that a story could be lost, merely because the author doesn't like it anymore. Cut ties with it, fine; post it anonymously, deny you ever wrote it, sure, that's your choice. But to erase it, delete it, make disappear a work of art that someone enjoyed, that someone remembered, that made someone think or feel, so that they can never re-experience it, or share it with anyone else - that upsets me. It feels like censorship, even if it's the artist's own; like a fundamental denial of what art is. Like it's a crime, a sin, to murder a story, even if you're its creator; like a story's right to exist trumps anyone's wish for it to be gone. That art is forgotten is inevitable, but that it is lost because it was deliberately buried, deliberately hidden - that's tragedy.

I feel exactly the same way. This seems very fundamental to me and very pertinent because of the impending demise of geocities. In my fandom, there is a lot of fic out there that will be lost unless we make an effort to archive it ourselves. If there is no valid email address anymore and we can't contact the author, even if we know the writer didn't want their fic archived, I just want it done. I think readers have rights, too, and so does the art. Let the stories live.

Re: here via metafandom

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's another point - a lot of authors these days are difficult if not impossible to contact, and I don't see why it should be assumed that an author who can't be reached wouldn't want to see their work saved. I know I myself would definitely want it saved...

(Fortunately OTW is looking to save Geocities fic archives, too - hope they get that worked out soon, there's fic in some of my fandoms as well that can't be found elsewhere...)

here from metafandom

[vjs2259.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to say this was a pertinent post for me, and thanks for writing it. I published about a dozen issues of a small apa-zine (gulp) thirty odd years ago, and have been thinking about digitizing it and putting it...somewhere. The logistics and copyright issues have kept me going slow, but I will look at OTW's project. Dunno if they'd be interested in something that small and niche, but it's a thought.

There are many issues with archiving/re-publishing/posting older material. In my case, I have no idea where many of these folk are and what they would want. I planned to post it, and offer to take it down on demand. Easy with an apa-style zine, as they are separate zines bundled into one unit. I know two of my friends went on to become professional artists, and may not want their juvenalia published. Others are in the publishing industry, and might not enjoy having their 'illegal' fic/art out there to be seen. But I would like it to be saved; and slightly more accessible than a box in my basement :)

Re: here from metafandom

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I'd definitely contact the OTW, especially if you've got spare copies to donate - this project isn't about digitization (at least not yet; that's an eventual goal, but only after they obtain permission from the copyright holders; as you mentioned, there are a whole heap of issues involved with making stuff available online) - but I'm pretty sure they're looking for fanzines of all types for the hardcopy archive.

The librarian in me is happy just thinking of all the zines that might be saved, even if I won't get to read them myself! ^_^

just on a sidenote

[ender24]

because it was not linked on metafandom, and most of the discussion is in German, but there is apparently a law in US as well as in Germany, that requires for every publisher of something that resembles to a printed hardcopy with more than 25 copies, to send copies of those printed stuff to the national library congress archive, (or whatever it is called).
http://frogspace.livejournal.com/322014.html?thread=3590110&format=light&style=mine#t3590110

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/mandatory_deposit.html

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ07d.pdf


so, the whole upsetness of what OTW is doing, is kind of... strange??

I mean, okay, probably 99, period 9 % of fandom or zine fics authors do not know about this law, nor do the fannish publishers, but still, the law is there :D

Re: just on a sidenote

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yup, someone pointed that out here as well, and on the OTW blog. So, yeah, if ziners were actually obeying the law, this would be a moot point...

(I wonder how many zines actually are in the LOC archives...)

[fish-echo.livejournal.com]

I'm late to the party, but I figured I'd chime in anyways.

(I also admit there's a lot of selfishness in my way of thinking - there's MUNCLE fic out there that I want to read, damn it! What do I care if the authors like their stories anymore - I'll enjoy them, and that's what matters! XP)

If you delete the word 'MUNCLE' from that sentence it is exactly my thought!

I pretty much agree with everything you've said here, especially this bit right here: It horrifies me that a story could be lost, merely because the author doesn't like it anymore. Cut ties with it, fine; post it anonymously, deny you ever wrote it, sure, that's your choice. But to erase it, delete it, make disappear a work of art that someone enjoyed, that someone remembered, that made someone think or feel, so that they can never re-experience it, or share it with anyone else - that upsets me. It feels like censorship, even if it's the artist's own; like a fundamental denial of what art is. Like it's a crime, a sin, to murder a story, even if you're its creator; like a story's right to exist trumps anyone's wish for it to be gone. That art is forgotten is inevitable, but that it is lost because it was deliberately buried, deliberately hidden - that's tragedy.

*hugs all fic in existence*

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I have to say, I'm happy to know I'm not the only one in fandom who feels this way - maybe in the grand scheme of things fic isn't that important, but at least to this fangirl, it's something worth saving!