SPN mini-commentary

[xparrot]

Regarding SPN 5x12 and 5x13:

5x12: a criminal waste of a good body swap. Phooey.

5x13: DANGIT SHOW, why'd you have to go and do that? I liked Anna, quite a lot - rebellious angels of all stripes are a major draw for me. Having her go evil (and stupidly evil no less - she actually achieved her objective, she killed Sam, and then rather than go and immediately scatter his atoms across the cosmos - back in time, no less, it probably would've taken some effort to straighten that out - she continued to go for the brutal murder. ARGH.) and then get killed is just annoying.

I also believe this means that every single female character who appeared in more than two episodes is now dead. Seriously, show, the hell? Even Castiel h/c can't make up for that.

(not to say that I didn't enjoy those bits. But I would've enjoyed them a lot more in a different context.)



Also finished s4 Buffy/s1 Angel. Yay friendship! Yay h/c! Yay Spike in tweed on a swingset! (Joss Whedon is a Twin Peaks/David Lynch fan, y/y?)

Comments

[trystings.livejournal.com]

I'm commenting with my eyes closed - I haven't watched SPN season 5 yet. We've just started on season 3 in NL (promoted as ALL NEW! :P).

And what is it that I hear? Is there trouble brewing on the set of NCIS? I thought Mark Harmon partially took over as producer after Bellisario left? :(

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Waaaait, what's this about NCIS? I've heard nothing (haven't really been in the loop, but...) Mark Harmon is one of the producers, yeah...is he talking of leaving?? say it ain't so!!

[naye]

Haven't heard anything either - but then again, I don't really listen... It doesn't feel totally unlikely that he'll pull a RDA, though. As long as they don't do anything drastic to Gibbs, I'm sure it can work out. Somehow. ;_;

[trystings.livejournal.com]

Ausiello is stirring things up with vague hints. It does sound like he's talking about NCIS though and if he is, I hope they can work it out. It's one of the few shows I really enjoy and it would lose a lot of its appeal if Mark Harmon left.

SPN I'm way behind on (like, I didn't know yet that youknowwho were killed, see comments below arrggh). ;)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Huh, is that NCIS? I hadn't heard there was a problem between Harmon and Shane Brennan, since Bellisario left...

Will hope it works out - NCIS is one of my happy places, hate to lose it!

[immicolia.livejournal.com]

*thinks* I don't know. Aren't Jo and Ellen still alive?... then again, I still have season 4 that I got on DVD for Christmas to get around to watching, let alone season 5. So I have honestly no clue. But I think they're still alive...... by virtue of not being in any more episodes. Which.... okay, isn't any better. :\

(truthfully, SPN kinda died for me at the end of season 2 when they torched the Roadhouse and Ash apparently died in a fire. I still watch it on DVD but my interest is very mild)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

***SPOILER SPOILER***




...No, Jo & Ellen were killed off a few eps ago. After being brought back a few eps before that. Apparently just so they could be killed.

ARGH!

[tringasolitaria.livejournal.com]

Seriously?!? Wow - I'm glad I gave up SPN a while back. :(

[immicolia.livejournal.com]

Fffft. Wow. That is just.... No words. Really. Then again, they kinda have a tendancy to knock off pretty much all of the interesting side characters (I'm still miffed about Hendricksen too) but the ladies have it extra lousy.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hendricksen, ARGHHH. Being a black man on SPN is about as bad as being a woman - I have no idea what their issues are, but they have BIG ones >.>

At this point at least half the reason I watch is just to see what stupid thing they're doing this time, I admit...

[gnine.livejournal.com]

Nope, Jo and Ellen both died in an earlier fifth season ep...so...

Oh show *shakes head* There have been some fun things in the later seasons (Castiel!) but for the most part, I agree, season 1 and 2 were the best...

[naye]

I am SO GLAD I stopped watching Supernatural. Just. orz

And - oooh, end of S4 is the awesome dream sequence? I did love that ep...!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah, quitting SPN was probably a good call. I can't quite get away from it, but...hey, at least it makes me feel more kindly toward Joss, for all his gaffes? :P

And yup, crazy dreams are crazy! Fun stuff, the surreality was a trip!

[lavvyan.livejournal.com]

SPN's treatment of its female characters makes just about everyone who's still watching regularly twitch in annoyance, I think. But yes, this one was particularly pointless.

But you know, what's really annyoing me this season? All the baffling storytelling choices. It's the Apocalypse, dammit, and still we get one filler episode after another, each with maybe one plot-relevant line. If the production team aren't giving a shit, why should I?

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

"Pointless" is SPN's charter, I think sometimes >.>

And yeah, the Apocalypse storyline...I've been trying to figure out if they've been counting all season on getting renewed, so are trying to draw it out through s6; or if they're just really bad at writing epic stories...

[nenya85.livejournal.com]

Your comments are so interesting they always make me wish I could get into SPN ^___^

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I think you'd like SPN (the Winchesters are some of the few chars I know to rival the Kaibas in codependent brothers) but ARGH it can be frustrating! ^^;

[ladydreamer.livejournal.com]

I feel you. I wish they'd just introduced a random oneshot character for Michael to incinerate, who found them through the same magical plot device that Anna used to escape from prison. Sigh. I'll admit that I didn't like Anna at first when she was human. After she became an angel, I liked her a lot. She had an interesting arc.

I really love SPN but I don't know why they refuse to get with it on this particular issue.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

The first time I watched Anna's eps I wasn't sure how I felt about her, but rewatching them while showing the show to a friend, I really did like her. I wanted to see more of her and Cas especially, because she understood people better than him. I was happy to see her in the "previouslies" but then the ep happened...

Yeah, they could've sent any angel after the boys! Or another sort of being! Or even had Anna do it but change her mind last-minute! Or have her get away when Michael came! So many options, but no, killing yet another woman was the way to go. Sigh.

[bluepard.livejournal.com]

As soon as Anna showed up, I knew it was going to go badly. I liked her too, which means it's best for her if she stays off the show!

(Also, I wonder how much more incest is being written thanks to this episode.)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I actually was hoping Anna was just going to have a brief appearance and be gone, I really didn't expect her to be evil and then killed off. I should've, but...argh!

And yeah, the Michael/Lucifer seems about as strong as the Dean/Sam, appropriately enough...!

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

It is annoying that they do kill all the interesting side characters, then again they kill everyone off. I don't keep up with the meta of the show, but is it 'picking on female character or characters of race' when in fact they do kill everyone?

I know I'll get hammered for saying this, but there are only two characters the show cares about and that are Sam and Dean. The end. If all the side characters were white men, then the show would get hassled for not having diversity...when they do cast characters other than white men, they get hassled for killing them.

I guess the main problem is that everyone on she show ends up dead or evil, which they are consistent in doing. Lol I do think they could keep a side cast without bumping them off at every turn though, you’ll hear an amen on that :D

As far as filler eppys vs. myth arc, no one seems to be happy.

It seems half my f-list is sick and tired of the apocalypse and wants more 'monster of the week' eppys, while they other half wants more myth arc eppys vs. filler ones. And that's a problem the show has had since they made a major turn at the end of season.

But to be honest I only watch the NCIS(s) and SPN, so I do watch for entrainment purposes only and I still enjoy watching the heck out of all of them.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

But there are multiple white male chars besides Sam & Dean who have been in more than 2 eps and are still alive - Bobby, Castiel, Lucifer, Chuck, the Trickster/Gabriel. Okay, they too might be all killed off in the end - but they haven't been yet. And Bobby and Castiel, while I love them both, have gotten more screentime than any female char or char of color. I don't know exactly what the problem on SPN is, but it is problematic.

As for apocalypse vs MotW - I'd prefer they picked one or the other, but either way I don't care that much. I've never watched SPN for the plot!

[kristen999.livejournal.com]

And Bobby and Castiel, while I love them both, have gotten more screentime than any female char or char of color.

I think the problem lies within a very vocal fan base that I think for once, TPTB paid too much attention to. Everyone in their mother has hated every female character on the show or has b*tched about them in the places that the producers read (hence why I skip most SPN posts elsewhere). I recall when Jo and Ellen were first introduced how much the fans screamed. Same goes for Ruby. Of course it's because they don't want anyone 'touching their boys', but I've seen on many occasions where Kripe said he wrote off a character based on fan response and I guess when you are dependent on 3 million or less he's way to sensitive to that. And that can be a bit scary.

I loved Jo and Ellen they just were not on the show enough and when they brought them back to only kill them, yeah that hurt. But, I used to analyze the shows I loved a lot and ended up getting caught up in the negative aspects and running the fun out of them. But as you said, I don’t watch the show too much for plot and I still love it a lot despite some of its issues.

And the funny thing is that SPN has more female writers than on any show I've ever watched. Now that doesn’t make you scratch your head :-P

Thanks for ‘discussing’ it with me. I’m normally very scared to talk about this show except with a few select few :D

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah, SPN's TPTB are a little too aware of fandom. And negative fan reaction does explain the handling of the female characters (to an extent, anyway, though I still think how they're written is part of why fans react badly to them. And also why bring Jo & Ellen back just to kill them; were fans really wanting that??) What's going on with the black chars can't be explained by fan reactions and is just bizarre...even if it's a series of coincidences, you'd think it'd be a coincidence they'd want to specifically avoid.

And yeah, while I think female writers/showrunners are important - most of the shows I know with awesome female chars have women in high places - they're not the only factor, as SPN shows!

Ahh, I can totally understand not wanting to analyze your shows too much for fear of losing the fun of them. Lately I've been mostly avoiding the meta-fandom discussions that have been going around because I've found they take a lot of the enjoyment out of fandom itself for me. At least at the moment, I'm happier sticking to my smaller circles, quietly discussing things with people like yourself without getting into huge and often unintentionally hurtful debates...

At least I have NCIS - that show's my happy place, and since it's laid off the politics I got no complaints ^^

[sholio]

Oh, SPN. XD I've pretty much disengaged emotionally with the show; I'm just not surprised at any stupid thing it does anymore. I did roll my eyes so hard they almost fell out of my head at Anna being all horror-movie-monster with John and Mary in the mechanic garage (i.e. standing there and glaring ominously rather than just wiping them out, when she's supposed to be all super-badass -- she came back 30 years and can't just pick up a tire iron?), but I've decided that getting emotionally invested in supporting characters isn't really worth it for this show.

One thing I was saying at someone else's LJ ... well, I'll just paste my comment rather than trying to paraphrase:

I think it's becoming more and more obvious that what they should have done to make [the mytharc] work -- what they started to do back in season two and then pulled away from for some reason -- is to world-build like crazy, because what they need at this point, I think, is a large cast of supporting players and world-building concepts to draw upon. Instead, they've been introducing supporting characters and artifacts Maguffin-style and then getting rid of them, which doesn't really leave them much to play with. At this point they're pretty much just reduced to going in circles with both the plot and Sam & Dean's interactions with each other.

... which is really where I'm at with the series: it feels like they've been retreading the same territory with Sam and Dean for two seasons now (if not longer), and they just don't have the universe to support the long-arc plot that they're trying to do. They've already plumbed the depths of their main characters' relationship to each other ad infinitum, and their relationship with their parents, and now they're left with the claustrophobic results of having systematically killed off everyone else who's important to them (except for Bobby, but that's another relationship that's pretty much been plumbed to its depths) and having nowhere left to go emotionally.

I did, somewhat against my will *g*, really enjoy the Castiel h/c and his loyalty to Sam (though, I really didn't feel like the show had adequately set up for it -- "Sam is my friend" since when?).

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

A resounding YUP to all of this - I've disengaged as well; the only emotion SPN can really evoke in me anymore is frustration; it's not really even irritation anymore. I'd let myself get a bit fond of Anna mainly because I thought the show had forgotten about her...should've learned my lesson from Ellen & Jo.

As to everything else you say, oh, yes, I had the same thought before. SPN is an amazing explanation of why you cannot tell an epic story with 3 main chars (I'm thinking Sam & Dean and then Bobby and Cas as a 1/2 each :P) It locks those main chars into repeating patterns, and at the same time it focuses the audience's view so tightly that we don't get a sense of scale. Epic stories are about saving the world/universe, but Sam & Dean's universe is really really tiny, and we haven't been given much reason to care for the rest of it.

That's one of the reasons I like Castiel, because he's newer, and his relationships with Sam & Dean haven't been fixed yet - those bits of Castiel h/c, though not as extreme as what happened with the Winchesters even within the episode, were some of the most h/c I've enjoyed on SPN for seasons, because they were new and different. But yeah, him being friends with Sam was out of left field (easier to explain from the Dean/Cas perspective, really - "I can't let you kill my boyfriend's brother, I'll never get sex again!")