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xparrotSo last week I finished Angel: the Series. In the end...I'm not sure how I felt about it. Season 5 was in some ways a summation of the progression of the entire show, starting out mostly fun and teamy with a bit of seriousness, and then getting steadily darker, past the point of what I enjoy, even though they did some really interesting stuff.
Buffy I liked, with some reservations, but overall I enjoyed it while not loving it. Angel, on the other hand, I absolutely love about 50% of the show, and pretty much hate 50% of it, and it leaves me very confused. Especially when there's some things about it that I love and hate simultaneously. Like Illyria (...I keep typing "Illya" instead, wonder why :P). Illyria herself (itself?) I find a fascinating character, one I'm sorry I didn't get more of, more of how she dealt with involuntarily imposed humanity (like Spike x1000), how the memories of a single human lifetime affected a being older than humanity itself. And there's something really nifty about killing off a character but keeping the actor around - and giving her a role she seemed to revel in, too (Really, who doesn't want to play a super-powered evil ex-demon god?)
OTOH, I loved Fred, and geeze, why does every single major female character in Angel end up evil?! Come on! Cordelia got so thoroughly shafted in s4, I can't even comprehend why (and the single ep she returned for in s5, though touching, didn't nearly make up for it). And then with Fred, it wasn't just enough to kill her, they had to destroy her soul - mainly to keep the guys from going and getting it back, but still. Harsh! Not to mention it was done in large part to make Wesley angst, and that didn't work for me anyway...I never really felt the Wesley/Fred, not like I felt the Wesley/Lilah - or, for that matter, the Wesley/Illyria. (Really, I wish for the tragedy of Fred's death that they'd revived the Fred/Gunn, which did work for me - I'd have been more affected by Fred's death if it had been Gunn there with her. With Wesley, it felt so much like the show had forced them together just in time for the angst. And then the developing Wesley/Illyria would've had another layer, with Gunn more involved in the mix.)
Gunn's whole arc in s5...well, at least he got one, but like everything else I'm not sure how I felt about it. I liked parts of it, didn't like other parts. I wish it'd made it clearer that he didn't get any IQ boost from the modifications, just knowledge that allowed him to take advantage of his native genius. About half the time this is how the show said it was, but the other half it wasn't so clear. I never bought the "Gunn only believes himself the muscle" bit of his character, considering how it denied, oh, the entire rest of his life, with all the work he did leading the gangs against the vampires. Of all the chars, he was the one with the most leadership experience - a natural leader, too; he took that position, not like he was elected or born to it - but the show never acknowledged this, past his introduction. Frustrating.
But then, there was stuff I loved! The Angel-Spike, and the Angel/Spike (...or Angelus/Spike, which was surprisingly textual...) was pretty much everything I could ask for. Vampires with souls = MASSIVE DORKS and they could be so ridiculously petty and jealous and argumentative about cavemen vs astronauts and yeah, they don't like each other, but they love each other, as family does. And Angel/Buffy/Spike is totally and entirely my OT3. (The Italy ep, with Buffy dating the entirely unseen Immortal, so, so dumb, but HAW. Yeah, they're all perfect for each other, no one can convince me otherwise.)
Also, PUPPET!ANGEL, OMGWTFBBQLOL. (like the Buffy musical, I knew that the puppet ep existed. STILL.)
The resolution of Connor's story, him getting his memories back, but keeping his old life, too - that was about the happiest ending possible, better than I thought he'd get. (and then, Connor trying to stand with Angel at the end, his, "They'll destroy you," and Angel's "As long as you're okay, they can't." Oh, my heart.) Then, Lindsey coming back was, YAY, Lindsey, but shame about him being evil again, and shame about how he ended up...it wasn't entirely out of line, but at the same time, I wish it hadn't gone down like that. Poor, poor Lorne.
The final episodes were all about breaking the characters, shattering them into so many pieces all the king's horses & men couldn't reassemble them, which hurt...but they were also pretty damn cool TV. (plus, Adam Baldwin!) So, like everything else about AtS...I don't know how I felt about them. I think, the show being what it was, its ending was fitting to it, and the final charge was actually pretty perfect - in some ways, I don't want to read the comics; I don't want a canonical conclusion to that story, but want it open to any and all possibilities.
So, now that I've finished both series, I'm open to recs! Vids especially, I'd love vids for either show (oh! I've been lent Scooby Road and entirely forgot I had it, will have to watch that!)- I've mentioned my preferences before, but really, if the vid is awesome or pretty or hysterical, I'd love to see it. As far as fic goes...I am sort of wanting fic, but what I'm wanting is pretty specific and not that common, from the Buffyverse fic I've looked at...I'd like AtS s5/post-series stuff* that's not incredibly angsty; if not gen (and good, non-depressing post-AtS gen would be awesome) I'd especially love either a B/A fic with a happy ending that I can believe in (pretty much all the B/A I've seen is either ridiculously unconvincing domestic romantic fluff, or tragic AAAAAANGST, much of it well written but not what I'm in the mood for) or else a Buffy/Angel/Spike fic that's more about story than the sex. And that has a happy ending! which I don't even know how it could work, but want it bad enough that I'm tempted to try to write it myself, just to figure it out.
* I know there's a lot of great fic written earlier in AtS's run, but I've got this thing that I can't really read fic about characters who later die in canon. E.g. I can't read fic set in the first couple seasons of NCIS, for all that I loved SPOILER. So most earlier Buffy & Angel fic wouldn't work for me, now that I've seen the whole show. The one exception is chars who die in the final eps, because generally I can just forget that they ever did. But most of the BtVS/AtS deaths cannot be denied as easily as, say, Richie Ryan's...
I also must mention that having finished with the Buffyverse, I've started watching Bones (yes, yes, I'm madly crushing on David Boreanaz, moving on), am at the beginning of s2 and am rather enjoying that. Booth & Brennan are a match for Mulder & Scully in their mostly-platonic partnershippy loyalty (![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
gnine is OTPing them madly and I expect I'll get there soon enough) and the other chars are fun (Angela especially is made of awesome!) and the teaminess is cute and I don't have to worry about any of the great female characters getting taken over by evil demon-gods, always a plus! ...And while I do love Angel, DB is so dang cute when he's smiling and cheerful and wearing colors (and really silly ties!) Some guys/chars look better in pain (John Crichton *cough*) and some guys look better happy, and DB's in the latter category. Plus he's gotten better at the angst as well (whenever Booth thinks about his sniper past I can't help but think that DB is going, yep, angst about past homicides, no prob, it's my specialty...) All the show wants for is a bit more h/c...(if there's any good Bones h/c fic out there, please to be pointing me toward it?)
Buffy I liked, with some reservations, but overall I enjoyed it while not loving it. Angel, on the other hand, I absolutely love about 50% of the show, and pretty much hate 50% of it, and it leaves me very confused. Especially when there's some things about it that I love and hate simultaneously. Like Illyria (...I keep typing "Illya" instead, wonder why :P). Illyria herself (itself?) I find a fascinating character, one I'm sorry I didn't get more of, more of how she dealt with involuntarily imposed humanity (like Spike x1000), how the memories of a single human lifetime affected a being older than humanity itself. And there's something really nifty about killing off a character but keeping the actor around - and giving her a role she seemed to revel in, too (Really, who doesn't want to play a super-powered evil ex-demon god?)
OTOH, I loved Fred, and geeze, why does every single major female character in Angel end up evil?! Come on! Cordelia got so thoroughly shafted in s4, I can't even comprehend why (and the single ep she returned for in s5, though touching, didn't nearly make up for it). And then with Fred, it wasn't just enough to kill her, they had to destroy her soul - mainly to keep the guys from going and getting it back, but still. Harsh! Not to mention it was done in large part to make Wesley angst, and that didn't work for me anyway...I never really felt the Wesley/Fred, not like I felt the Wesley/Lilah - or, for that matter, the Wesley/Illyria. (Really, I wish for the tragedy of Fred's death that they'd revived the Fred/Gunn, which did work for me - I'd have been more affected by Fred's death if it had been Gunn there with her. With Wesley, it felt so much like the show had forced them together just in time for the angst. And then the developing Wesley/Illyria would've had another layer, with Gunn more involved in the mix.)
Gunn's whole arc in s5...well, at least he got one, but like everything else I'm not sure how I felt about it. I liked parts of it, didn't like other parts. I wish it'd made it clearer that he didn't get any IQ boost from the modifications, just knowledge that allowed him to take advantage of his native genius. About half the time this is how the show said it was, but the other half it wasn't so clear. I never bought the "Gunn only believes himself the muscle" bit of his character, considering how it denied, oh, the entire rest of his life, with all the work he did leading the gangs against the vampires. Of all the chars, he was the one with the most leadership experience - a natural leader, too; he took that position, not like he was elected or born to it - but the show never acknowledged this, past his introduction. Frustrating.
But then, there was stuff I loved! The Angel-Spike, and the Angel/Spike (...or Angelus/Spike, which was surprisingly textual...) was pretty much everything I could ask for. Vampires with souls = MASSIVE DORKS and they could be so ridiculously petty and jealous and argumentative about cavemen vs astronauts and yeah, they don't like each other, but they love each other, as family does. And Angel/Buffy/Spike is totally and entirely my OT3. (The Italy ep, with Buffy dating the entirely unseen Immortal, so, so dumb, but HAW. Yeah, they're all perfect for each other, no one can convince me otherwise.)
Also, PUPPET!ANGEL, OMGWTFBBQLOL. (like the Buffy musical, I knew that the puppet ep existed. STILL.)
The resolution of Connor's story, him getting his memories back, but keeping his old life, too - that was about the happiest ending possible, better than I thought he'd get. (and then, Connor trying to stand with Angel at the end, his, "They'll destroy you," and Angel's "As long as you're okay, they can't." Oh, my heart.) Then, Lindsey coming back was, YAY, Lindsey, but shame about him being evil again, and shame about how he ended up...it wasn't entirely out of line, but at the same time, I wish it hadn't gone down like that. Poor, poor Lorne.
The final episodes were all about breaking the characters, shattering them into so many pieces all the king's horses & men couldn't reassemble them, which hurt...but they were also pretty damn cool TV. (plus, Adam Baldwin!) So, like everything else about AtS...I don't know how I felt about them. I think, the show being what it was, its ending was fitting to it, and the final charge was actually pretty perfect - in some ways, I don't want to read the comics; I don't want a canonical conclusion to that story, but want it open to any and all possibilities.
So, now that I've finished both series, I'm open to recs! Vids especially, I'd love vids for either show (oh! I've been lent Scooby Road and entirely forgot I had it, will have to watch that!)- I've mentioned my preferences before, but really, if the vid is awesome or pretty or hysterical, I'd love to see it. As far as fic goes...I am sort of wanting fic, but what I'm wanting is pretty specific and not that common, from the Buffyverse fic I've looked at...I'd like AtS s5/post-series stuff* that's not incredibly angsty; if not gen (and good, non-depressing post-AtS gen would be awesome) I'd especially love either a B/A fic with a happy ending that I can believe in (pretty much all the B/A I've seen is either ridiculously unconvincing domestic romantic fluff, or tragic AAAAAANGST, much of it well written but not what I'm in the mood for) or else a Buffy/Angel/Spike fic that's more about story than the sex. And that has a happy ending! which I don't even know how it could work, but want it bad enough that I'm tempted to try to write it myself, just to figure it out.
* I know there's a lot of great fic written earlier in AtS's run, but I've got this thing that I can't really read fic about characters who later die in canon. E.g. I can't read fic set in the first couple seasons of NCIS, for all that I loved SPOILER. So most earlier Buffy & Angel fic wouldn't work for me, now that I've seen the whole show. The one exception is chars who die in the final eps, because generally I can just forget that they ever did. But most of the BtVS/AtS deaths cannot be denied as easily as, say, Richie Ryan's...
I also must mention that having finished with the Buffyverse, I've started watching Bones (yes, yes, I'm madly crushing on David Boreanaz, moving on), am at the beginning of s2 and am rather enjoying that. Booth & Brennan are a match for Mulder & Scully in their mostly-platonic partnershippy loyalty (
gnine is OTPing them madly and I expect I'll get there soon enough) and the other chars are fun (Angela especially is made of awesome!) and the teaminess is cute and I don't have to worry about any of the great female characters getting taken over by evil demon-gods, always a plus! ...And while I do love Angel, DB is so dang cute when he's smiling and cheerful and wearing colors (and really silly ties!) Some guys/chars look better in pain (John Crichton *cough*) and some guys look better happy, and DB's in the latter category. Plus he's gotten better at the angst as well (whenever Booth thinks about his sniper past I can't help but think that DB is going, yep, angst about past homicides, no prob, it's my specialty...) All the show wants for is a bit more h/c...(if there's any good Bones h/c fic out there, please to be pointing me toward it?)
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no subject
Date: 2010-03-21 09:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 01:31 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-21 10:09 pm (UTC)When I talked about the bleach badness of season four, that was mostly in reference to Cordelia's arc. Man, that was bad. And while I really liked Fred I thought the scenes between Illyria and Wesley were some of my favourite parts of the show - that was some tastily done angst.
After hearing about what goes on in the comics, I would avoid. It seems like it turns into a giant car crash of OOCness and head scratching.
And yes about DB, that man has a gorgeous smile!
Have you checked out kita's site 'Slashing the Angel'? It has, well, Angel slash, but she also is a Buffy/Angel and B/S/A shipper so it's got a fair bit of that featured as well. I'm not a fan of B/S or B/A but am an OT3er - mainly because that way Angel and Spike can deflect all their jerkiness on each other and Buffy can be left with all the good stuff, heh!
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Date: 2010-03-22 01:34 am (UTC)DB's big huge smile is beautiful, and you never see it in Angel, because Angel never smiles like that...or if he does, it tends to be DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER. So he's adorable as Booth.
I'm not a fan of B/S or B/A but am an OT3er - mainly because that way Angel and Spike can deflect all their jerkiness on each other and Buffy can be left with all the good stuff, heh!
Ahahahah yes, exactly! Buffy totally deserves the best of both of them ^_^
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Date: 2010-03-22 02:24 am (UTC)I was reading the comments, and I think the big reason why I became such a big SGA fandom follower was because the McShep and gen fic finally hit my buttons unlike Spike/Angel (which was my original ship) because that ship is pretty much wall-to-wall angst or kink!fic, which certainly doesn't mean that it isn't well written, but it's just not entirely my cup of tea. Ironically in the end that's why I dipped my toes into Spike/Xander, which I think was about as believable as a three dollar bill, but it tended towards the lighter side of the spectrum.
An author I definitely recommend is Eliade who has written various ships and is one of my all-time favourites - she has an uncanny knack for writting very much in the style of the show.
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Date: 2010-03-22 09:26 am (UTC)Heh, yeah, I can see how Spike/Angel would go angsty real fast. Ideally I'd like a lighter take on the pairing - by the end of AtS, they've got the snarktastic comrades-in-arms thing going on. But the fic I've seen goes more for the dark or kink or both, and yeah, not my cup of tea. (have seen the Spike/Xander and been very WTF - I know there's good authors writing it - but, just, UMMM? Also Xander was one of my less-favorite chars, and there's a distinct lack of Angel, so, not for me.)
As far as fic goes, I wish Buffy-fandom was more like Smallville - there was fantastic potential for Clex angst that was thoroughly explored in fic, but a lot of it ended happy anyway. Angst-with-a-happy-end is my chocolate cake of fanfic, but Buffy-verse seems either one or the other - angst or fluff, little middle ground. Considering the shows work along similar lines, it's not surprising, but I don't think I'm going to spend much time with the fic...
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Date: 2010-03-22 09:42 pm (UTC)And that's exactly why I like the pairing! There is fic of that nature about the place, but it definitely wasn't the style of choice for fandom which is why even though Spike/Xander is definitely a WTF pairing of epic proportions, writers like eliade pulled me in. Hey, McShep wasn't around yet. :)
Btvs does bad!fic to a degree where there should be awards given out, but if you can hunt down the authors there is some good stuff that can be found - god knows there's a big enough cache of fic about. crazydiamondsue has been going on a binge of buffyverse at the moment and has put together a whole lot of meta, fic links etc - you may find something that you like there.
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Date: 2010-03-26 09:36 pm (UTC)(anonymous)
Date: 2010-03-26 09:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-26 09:50 pm (UTC)Husband: How old are those people? Those supposedly trained forensic specialists? None of them is more than twelve. Twelve! Except for that one. I think he's eight.
Me: I think he's a prodigy.
Husband: You mean he's smart? Doesn't matter! Criminal science investigation requires more than training, it requires years of experience to know what you're looking at. [Actually he said a lot more than this, repeatedly and at length, but this was the gist.]
Me: Well, I know he's more than eight, because in one episode he was talking about having sex.
Husband: Then somebody's going to jail.
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Date: 2010-03-26 10:00 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-21 10:36 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 01:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 12:11 am (UTC)http://cesperanza.livejournal.com/239756.html
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Date: 2010-03-22 01:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 02:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 09:30 am (UTC)Yeah, my favorite het ships work pretty much exactly like my slash ships. And there is something nice about knowing one's ship has a chance of getting their happily ever after in canon.
(I'm only a season and a half into Bones and already Booth was promising to be there as a partner for Brennan always, so, yeah, they're pushing my buttons hard!)
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Date: 2010-03-22 12:23 am (UTC)Also check
Enjoy.
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Date: 2010-03-22 01:39 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 01:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 12:36 am (UTC)I read a few of the Angel comics in hope of further character development and got sort of upset about what happened with Gunn. I feel like his character got shafted in the last season of the show and it just continued to get worse.
But yeah, the Connor storyline wrap up. I greatly enjoyed the fact that they actually followed through with the Sarjian prophecy. And the fact that Angel picked Connor to be the one he saw on his last day, aw!
Whedon talked a bit about how he had bigger plans for the Fred/Illyria storyline except they got canceled.
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Date: 2010-03-22 01:43 am (UTC)It sounds like the Angel comics don't have many fans, so I'm thinking I'll be avoiding them...sigh. Though I've heard Angel might turn up in the Buffy comics, and I know some folks have been enjoying those, so...
And yes, Connor's storyline in the end is probably my favorite in the show - even with the Cordelia aspects that I didn't care for, it tied up nicely. And yay for Connor for surviving!
From comments below, sounds like the Fred/Illyria story would've been interesting - shame about the cancellation...
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Date: 2010-03-22 02:05 am (UTC)I was so pleased Connor survived. After the early life he had, he totally deserved a good life. Not that such things ever really counted for much in the Whedon-verse.
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Date: 2010-03-22 09:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-03-22 01:05 am (UTC)Uhhh *scratches head*. I have post-NFA recs, and I have non-angsty recs, but both in one, that's indeed trickier to find.
I'll take a look at my fic recs list. And I plan to put together a vid recs list when I find the time... it's time for an updated vid recs post anyway, what with all the old links no longer working. (But off the top of my head I can rec you the vid I linked the other day.)
Wasn't Origin glorious?! One of my favorite parts of the show was Angel's relationship to his son, even though it never went the way I was hoping for. I was incredibly irked when Vincent Kartheiser and Charisma Carpenter were kicked off the show, but their return episodes were so good that they almost made up for a season's absence, Connor's even more so than Cordy's. I hoped Origin would be good, but it blew me away. (Same goes for the ending of Home.) The scene where Wesley shatters the orb and all the memories come rushing back - the emotional payoff was incredible.
And then with Fred, it wasn't just enough to kill her, they had to destroy her soul - mainly to keep the guys from going and getting it back, but still.
IIRC I read that Illyria was supposed to be an unreliable narrator and lied about the soul part to get the guys off her tail. It was supposed to be a plot arc of season six... and then they got cancelled. Reportedly Amy Acker was crushed because she revelled in her role as Illyria and was looking forward to playing Fred/Illyria.
I just remembered: I have a B/S/A ficlet rec. It's not entirely angst free but really, with those three that's as good as it can get:
"Troika" by Barb C.
http://rahirah.livejournal.com/182293.html
Barb sums up this whole complex love triangle in no more than 3x69 words, in a way that's very elegant and efficient.
[eta:] One of my top five fave Buffy vids: Living Dead Girl (http://bradcpu.livejournal.com/25240.html) by
A powerful, dynamic, and original Faith study.
Also, I got Bones fic recs over at my journal, with tags and descriptions and stuff. Servare Vitas has some very nice h/c inmidst a lot of plot.
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Date: 2010-03-22 01:48 am (UTC)Heeee, yeah, non-angsty post-series fics for AtS seem in very short supply! Shame I'm not in the mood for more angst, but the way RL has been for me lately, I really need happiness in my fic. ...Which means this isn't a great time to be in Buffy-verse fandom, really ^^;;
"Origin" was a fabulous ep, one of my favorites of s5. It would have been particularly interesting to see s6 as it aired, I think; so much happened throughout the course of the season that getting it week by week would have been a roller coaster. If not always a happy fun one...
Interesting about the Fred-Illyria stuff! I would've liked to see that story play out. Amy Acker did a great job with Illyria and I wanted more of her!
And ooooh, Bones recs! I have a feeling I'll be able to find more fics of the sort I'm in the mood for in Bones. That long one especially sounds appealing...
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Date: 2010-03-23 02:37 pm (UTC)Wheee, h/c with plot! That sounds good! (I kinda got ahead of my sister in the Bones watching...and by that I mean I watched the entire show in a week. Um...oops? So now I'm very much in the mood for fic!) *bounces off to your journal*
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Date: 2010-03-22 01:17 am (UTC)And good luck with the fic hunt - not something I've had a lot of luck with myself, but I wish you well.
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Date: 2010-03-22 01:52 am (UTC)Hee, yeah, BtVS/AtS seems to be one of those fandoms where there's a ton of fic, but not much of the sort I really enjoy. Which makes sense, as the shows are not really the sort I'd fan on, generally...still, there's enough out there that it's worth a bit of poking, I think, just to see what I'll find.
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Date: 2010-03-22 04:04 pm (UTC)While they are of surprisingly good quality, most storylines are just really weird.
I totally agree with you on Wesley/Fred too...I never felt the chemistry. They make a good couple on the paper, but the actors just didn't really click, I think. I would have preferred Gunn/Fred too, would have given him something to do other than that crappy lawyer storyline. Plus, these two were cuter than anything. And not so angsty.
The epic Wesley-angst over her death just felt forced to me, cause Wes had been with her for what, one episode? Illyria was very interesting to me, though, I would have liked to see more of her.
I don't read a lot of BtVS fic, mostly because so many fans seem to love Xander who was always my least favorite character (well, between him and Dawn, it's a tie).
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Date: 2010-03-23 03:20 am (UTC)And yes, exactly, to everything else. Fred/Gunn was very sweet - to be honest I probably would've liked it even more except that I knew it didn't work out, and I try not to ship couples I know break up. But yeah, Wesley's angst didn't ring as true to me as Gunn's would have.
And what's up with the Xander love in the fandom? By the end of the show I liked him, but I never found him nearly as interesting as many of the other chars. Not to mention the thing I liked most about Xander, that he was Anya's boy, doesn't seem to come up much in fic, as Anya/Xander seems to be an unpopular ship. While as I loved them together. Sigh!
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Date: 2010-03-23 12:23 pm (UTC)Yeah, I don't get what's so great about Xander either. I liked him okay when he was with Anya (because she rules) but before that, especially in seasons 1-3, with Angel, he was a real jerk sometimes and he just didn't know it. The really weird thing is, that at least in a lot of stuff I have read, Anya seems to be not very popular, most fics just ignore her very existence. Which I don't get, because Anya was the funniest (well, tied to soulless Spike) character on the show.
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Date: 2010-03-26 09:58 pm (UTC)Fred's soul
Date: 2010-03-26 10:05 pm (UTC)I don't believe it. We've seen enough soul restoration on BtVS & AtS (including souls that were severed from the bodies centuries earlier, e.g., Angel, Darla) to suggest that souls may be indestructible (or pretty durable, anyway).
The only evidence for the destruction of Fred's soul is the word of a Bad Guy, and BAD GUYS LIE. It's what they do! Don't believe them. (Besides, it doesn't make sense. The return of an immortal god-king requires a puny human soul as fuel? Doesn't that contradict the *immortal* part?)
I agree that Whedon & Co. threw it in to head off all calls for Fred's return, but, like Angel said, "Don't believe all you're foretold."