on fan critiques and "hate"-fanning

[xparrot]

Happened to see on a few different places on my flist that old classic conflict between squee-fans and "hate"-fans - fans who love something and focus their fanning on what they love (whether or not they acknowledge its flaws) vs fans who are annoyed/frustrated/outraged by something but keep watching and discussing it anyway. While no one really questions squee-fans, "hate"-fandom can be baffling for those who prefer to simply ignore the things they don't like.

Having been down the hate-fandom road before, I think the reason hate-fans stick with it is very similar to the reasons anyone sticks with squee-fanning: because it's an enjoyable, creative, social activity. Hate-fans fan together, share their outrage, write the stories they want to read, in general bond over their irritation.

It's not quite the same as squee-fanning - the biggest difference from my perspective is that hate-fanning is a more social activity, because while in squee-fanning one tends to rewatch the object of one's squee as well as talk about it, hate-fans tend not to want to rewatch much; they prefer to just talk about it. The thing is, though, that the talk may be negative about the subject, it's not necessarily negative talk; sharing one's opinions with like-minded sorts can be a positive, constructive experience, whether those opinions are positive or negative. (Case in point, the sibs and I stayed up 'til 6 AM discussing the plotholes in the new Star Trek movie, immensely enjoyed ourselves and learned a bit about orbital mechanics.)

For most hate fans, they actually like a significant part of what they're watching, but don't like certain elements, and after a time it becomes fascinating to see how far something goes off the path you wanted it to follow. At least for me, past a certain point, when I realize that what I liked is gone for good or else entirely outweighed by what I dislike, I will give up on something. But that's a different point for everyone. And sometimes if you loved the core concept enough, it can be almost impossible to let go of what's left of it. (See the Star Wars Fans Hate Star Wars phenomenon.)

But sometimes something can be so ridiculously awful that you enjoy it for its awfulness, either out of a love of camp or train-wreck fascination. There isn't anything wrong with this fundamentally, as I see it; the main problem with hate-fanning is when it intersects with squee-fandom. Hate-fans have a responsibility to try not to inflict their views on other fen, either by harshing squee directly or more indirectly such as dissing hated elements in fic comments (even seemingly complimentary things like "X pairing sucks, I'm so glad you didn't have it in this story!" can be really annoying to someone who likes X pairing but just didn't happen to write it in that story.) And hate-fans have the same responsibilities as any fans to monitor their own preferences and communication and try to excise socially harmful language and concepts as much as possible.

But just as most squee-fans (very rightfully!) don't want their squee harshed by haters, so most hate-fans don't want to be told that they're wrong and what they hate is really better than they think, or that if they don't like it they should just stop watching; that they shouldn't fan the way that they're fanning. (This times ten when they're told that they're sexist or racist or other-ist for hating on something; it feels just as bad as a squee-fan being told they're sexist or racist for liking something problematic.) When I've been a hate-fan myself, I often got a lot of enjoyment out of yelling at the screen and rolling my eyes at the object of my "hate", or complaining about it with folks; the times it made me miserable or uncomfortable was when I got into discussions/arguments with fans who liked it. I made them upset for passing judgment on something they liked, they upset me in turn by arguing that my own opinion was invalid - bad times all around. So these days I am a lot more careful when I get into hate-fanning, limit it very carefully to those people I know share my feelings, and enjoy indulging in it (it's why I so enjoy hating Smallville - pretty much everyone agrees it was an awful show...!)

This rant brought to you by Linkara and his hilarious, insightful screeds against bad comics - I love me some delicious comicbook fanboy rage (especially when it comes with a good dose of feminism and highly amusing narration)!

Comments

[darlulu.livejournal.com]

Hmm, interesting. It seems to me like the majority of fandoms largely move from squee to hate all on their own as seasons pass. I think it's that the main bulk of fans are initially excited when they first discover their new fave show and bask in all its potential, but as the series progresses and canon inevitably diverges from what a lot of fandom wants/expects, fans (not all, but a good percentage of them) become uber-critical. That obsessive need to dissect every little thing is a big part of what drives fan creations after all (fic, vids, fanart), but it's also what can turn the tide from squee to hate as fans start to primarily focus on what's wrong, what doesn't make sense, what's OOC, what they hate instead of what they love.

Or at least that's been the case for the fandoms I've loved over the years...Queer as Folk, Stargate Atlantis, Merlin. And I've already seen it starting in Person of Interest, too, now that the second season is over.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hmm, yes, I think this is broadly true - because hate-fandom tends to start from an initial place of love (you can't really hate something unless you're emotionally invested in it to begin with), most hate-fans started out as more squee-fans, and moved into the more negative side. Which means that for fandoms that don't get a lot of new fans later, the balance gets increasingly tilted toward hate-fans. (So fandoms which get waves of new fans are less prone to this.) And one's personal experience in a fandom will tend to be slanted more toward this pattern, too, unless you actively seek out new fans to replace those acquaintances which have moved over into hate-fanning - so even if a fandom overall is still mostly squee, you may think of the fandom as weighted toward hate-fanning, if the majority of your fan-friends are hating on it.

There are a few fandoms which start out with an initial hate-fandom of "fans" who never went through the love phase - Twilight has a big one, which I think is due to it being so popular it was widely recommended to people who didn't like it from the start but pushed through it because friends were telling them to read it?

[ladydreamer.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure how to interact with LJ anymore. I've been on tumblr too long.

+1

Like

This^^^

Reblog

Although I have a mixed position when I am in "hate" (I actually sort of despise how fandom classifies any critique as hate, when in real like, I associate hate with intolerance and beatings) fandoms, I also have things that I enjoy doing with the characters, and it's true this comes out of the place of love. It's just that I want to squee about the things I enjoy, and critique the hell out of the rest of it. (And even sometimes critique the characters I love.)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hee, yeah, Tumblr does rather change one's style...!

I waffled about calling it "hate"-fandom for just what you said, that hate can mean intolerance and this is something much lighter. But "critical-fanning" didn't work either, because one can critically analyze squee, too; and talking about one's irrational emotional dislike for something is part of "hate"-fanning, too. And I don't want to call it "negative-fanning" when the fanning itself can be a positive experience...will find some term eventually!

[katheli.livejournal.com]

I tend to hate-watch a lot of shows - most shows start out quite promising and get worse as time progresses. If you watch a show from its beginning you beging to expect a lot of things - you see the potential storylines, character moments etc. and it can become very frustrating when the show doesn't do anything with this and becomes less and less enjoyable as time progresses.

It's a different experience when I watch a show that's already over, on DVDs in quick succession. Like Buffy, for example, I only started watching when the show was already finished. Since I watched the DVDs right after the others, I didn't (unlike other fans) build up potential ideas for the show between hiatuses or simply between waiting for the next episode. Because I didn't have to wait. Therefore, I tend to be much more positive about the later seasons, especially season 4 (which was apparently hated when it first came out) because I just figured, okay, new direction.

I think it's an understandable reaction though. Most shows actually get less interesting as they go on. Buffy season 7 was notably weaker IMO than the ones before and I really didn't have any expecations or anything. Or Stargate Atlantis season 5. I noticed that upon rewatching there are actually only a handful of episodes I want to see again. I watch all of season one and two, most of season three, only a part of season 4, and like three or four episodes of season 5. That tells me that, yes, the show really wasn't as good as it used to be, because I'm just looking at standalone episodes here.

Aaaaanyways (enough from me), what I hate, hate, hate is when fans get all self-congratulatory about being able to enjoy a show. "I guess I just can suspend disbelief..." "I just like to watch without nitpicking, so I can enjoy..." That BUGS. I'm happy for anyone who enjoys stuff, but don't essentially tell me it's my own damn fault for not enjoying this because I watch it wrong. It's okay to notice flaws and to discuss them. And it's okay to just enjoy some movies or shows despite these. Just don't tell me I'm dumb for hating (or liking, it works that way too) something.

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

" "I guess I just can suspend disbelief..." "I just like to watch without nitpicking, so I can enjoy..." That BUGS. I'm happy for anyone who enjoys stuff, but don't essentially tell me it's my own damn fault for not enjoying this because I watch it wrong. It's okay to notice flaws and to discuss them."

Hi. I've been thinking about all this for the last few days, and I don't think I agree that these people are telling you how to watch a show. I think they're telling you how THEY watch the show. I mean, I might be wrong about what's in their minds, but in my experience, trying to figure out what's in another person's mind is a losing proposition. :-)

Unless, of course, they follow up the above statements with another statement that you really shouldn't talk about your POV. That's different, I agree. I've had so many put-downs over the years, both when I criticize a show, and when I support it. So it goes both ways. I won't give a detailed list of all the names I've been called, but it's extensive. And I have never told anyone else what to think about a show, one way or the other, merely given my own opinion.

I think everyone has their own list of things they'll ignore, or suspend disbelief about. I can ignore bad dialogue, for example. If a show seems to me to support bad ethics, however, it's game over for me. Whereas other people just care about the script writing or the acting, or the pretty TV faces, and don't even seem to notice that ethics exist. It is annoying to me that it's so hard to find fans who care about ethics in movies or TV, but what can I do about it?

Anyway, I do sympathize with your frustration. :-)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've had a similar thing - after I'm into something for a couple years, it often goes downhill, from my perspective. Sometimes it's not the show's fault, even; the show might just have continued doing what it does, but my own tastes have changed so they're no longer satisfied. OTOH I think a lot of shows do go downhill, if the creators become bored with them or otherwise dissatisfied.

. It's okay to notice flaws and to discuss them. And it's okay to just enjoy some movies or shows despite these. Just don't tell me I'm dumb for hating (or liking, it works that way too) something.

Yeah, this is one of those things that can be really annoying! Though sometimes it's not what the other person means, even if it can sound that way. People who like a show often will hear criticisms as "you're dumb for liking it" even when what the criticizer is actually saying is, "I just don't see in it what you see", and vice versa, if you're criticizing a show and someone says they like it, sometimes they do mean, "your criticisms are dumb" but sometimes they just mean, "aww, I liked it, too bad you didn't enjoy it with me." I've personally been disappointed both by friends not liking things I love and friends liking stuff I hate, but it's not that I'm disappointed *in* my friends, or think any less of of them in either case; I just am down that we can't squee or hate-on together...

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

"I've personally been disappointed both by friends not liking things I love and friends liking stuff I hate, but it's not that I'm disappointed *in* my friends, or think any less of of them in either case; I just am down that we can't squee or hate-on together..."

Yes! This is how I feel, too. But I think some people feel that disappointment that people don't agree with them completely, but instead of accepting that such a thing can never happen, they turn on their 'friends' and shut them out.

[complicat]

I think the most fun I've had in fandom is probably when hate-fanning something - while I like the squee and everything being shiny and perfect in a new fandom I've got more interaction and bonding out of a shared disillusionment and anger with something I used to love. I miss the snarking and the ridicule and the thinking up ways to fix things and the nostalgia for the good old days.

It is tricky though when you're still in squee-mode and elsewhere the inevitable backlash and complaints have started, or when you're happily hate-fanning and then encounter the squeeful who just aren't seeing all the flaws you can see. I try to make sure I'm interacting with someone fairly like-minded before adding my thoughts so as not to upset people (or myself).

Even when I'm hate-fanning though I secretly want the show to get better and make me love it again. So then I get annoyed by people who ignore the flaws or are prepared to forgive anything as long as such-and-such happens, because that means there is no incentive for the show to improve. Being out of step with your fandom is no fun.

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

"... Being out of step with your fandom is no fun."

I agree with everything you say above, but especially this. I really don't enjoy hating anything or anyone. It's just that, when your brain is in critique mode, it's actually working. When a person is just being completely uncritical and adoring about anything, I think it's dangerous. I really do. It turns your brain to mush. However, as I pointed out above, I also think -- and this is just my own opinion -- that everyone has certain areas they tend to be more or less critically engaged with. We can't all be hypercritical about everything. I tend to ignore certain flaws, and become enraged about others. It's just how my own unique brain works, or something. So, when I ignore plot holes in shows I love, it's because I don't care all that much about plot holes, most of the time. Unless the plot holes are used to support something I do care about a lot -- like the ethics of the show. In this case, it's one flaw piled upon another.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I've been on both sides of it - enjoying getting my snark on while my fan-friends still like something, and still squeeing over something my fan-friends dislike - and it can be uncomfortable on either side. As you say, being out-of-step with fandom is no fun, especially when you're rooting for something different for a show than everyone else. It's a similar thing to loving the pairing that everyone else hates on...even if it happens in canon in the way you want it, it can be a little sad if everyone else hates on it. These days I generally just try to find fanning circles that match my basic feelings, and avoid places/discussions that don't...

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

"But just as most squee-fans (very rightfully!) don't want their squee harshed by haters, so most hate-fans don't want to be told that they're wrong and what they hate is really better than they think, or that if they don't like it they should just stop watching; that they shouldn't fan the way that they're fanning."

I must say that whenever I've criticized an element of a TV show or something, and I've been told not to 'harsh my squee', I am overcome with an insane desire to hunt that person down, grab her by the neck and squeeze until her eyes pop out. God, what a horrible phrase!

"... I made them upset for passing judgment on something they liked..."

But that's life. I mean, just because someone loves a TV show uncritically doesn't mean they have the right to escape the realities of life, which means that there are always going to be people out there in the world who love what you hate and hate what you love. (I'm using the general 'you', here. I'm not lecturing you directly, just responding to the opinions of those people who think you should agree with all their opinions.)

I remember years ago, getting into a discussion with someone with whom I was friends on LJ. It was fine when we agreed about a certain TV show, but as soon as it turned out I didn't like something she liked, she disowned me. I wrote to her to ask what was wrong, and she said, 'You don't like this thing I love! Wah!' And I responded by saying, 'So what?' And she replied, 'But when I was growing up, it was so hard, liking TV shows that other people didn't like, and being mocked for my tastes. I just want to live in a totally positive environment here on LJ." And I told her that totally positive environments didn't exist anywhere, and that if she kept defriending people for not agreeing with her, soon she'd have no friends.

Anyway, this is a topic that interests me a lot, and I'm totally open to discussing it more, if you are. I might even post something on my own LJ, eventually.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

But that's life. I mean, just because someone loves a TV show uncritically doesn't mean they have the right to escape the realities of life, which means that there are always going to be people out there in the world who love what you hate and hate what you love. (I'm using the general 'you', here. I'm not lecturing you directly, just responding to the opinions of those people who think you should agree with all their opinions.)

Hmm, that's the thing, though. I think it's a very different thing to insist that everyone you ever meet agree with everything you say, versus looking for a non-critical fanning circle. So putting out a general post saying "This is the best show ever and if you don't agree you're an idiot!" is asking for it. But telling your friends, "I know people have issues with this show, and that's cool, but I'm having fun with it and would prefer to keep my own fanning positive" - and then your friends proceed to rain on your parade anyway, knowing it will make you unhappy - stopping being friends with them may be the healthiest thing for you emotionally. Fandom is meant to be a hobby, and people are not required to take their hobbies seriously; a lot of people use fandom as escape from serious issues in real life, and if you respect your friends (online or offline) you should respect their personal boundaries in how they want to fan.

Obviously this is a two-way street; you have the responsibility of telling your friends about those boundaries, rather than just expecting them to know and getting mad if they break your unspoken rules. And if you have a friend who refuses to talk about or engage with an issue which you feel is too important to ignore in the name of their squee, then you might need to drop that friendship, because they don't respect you enough to put aside squee for your feelings. But for the most part, with most elements of fandom, I don't think differences in opinions about TV shows are worth getting into fights with friends. (I'm speaking personally here; I have some very close friends who fan on things I dislike, and who don't care for some things I love. Occasionally we'll be in the mood to discuss these differences, but for the most part we ignore them for the many things we either mutually like or mutually dislike, and are much happier for it!)

Though this is different for everyone - if criticizing is a major part of your fanning fun, then it's probably better to make friends with more critical rather than squeeful fans - you'll enjoy it more, and so will the squee-fans! (I think this is why you'll get communities and things which will request squee-only, or which conversely will specify they're hate-groups - it's not necessarily that they're trying to exclude anyone, or that they're asking people to argue with them, so much as trying to tell people that this may not be a type of fanning they'll enjoy...)

[greenlady2.livejournal.com]

" But telling your friends, "I know people have issues with this show, and that's cool, but I'm having fun with it and would prefer to keep my own fanning positive" "

Oh, yeah, but that's not what happened. She didn't say this to me first, in which case I would have respected her wishes. She just dumped me, because I didn't like something she liked. I mean, that's fine with me now, since I just figure anyone who acts that way isn't a real friend. Which includes most people in fandom, I think.

" Fandom is meant to be a hobby, and people are not required to take their hobbies seriously; a lot of people use fandom as escape from serious issues in real life, and if you respect your friends (online or offline) you should respect their personal boundaries in how they want to fan."



But people should state those 'boundaries' upfront. Anyone who just dumps someone that they 'friended' simply because they don't agree with everything they like or dislike doesn't deserve respect, in my opinion. Respect is a two way street, as you say. Am I supposed to hide my opinions on everything, just in case they don't coincide with those of every human being out there in cyberspace whose feelings I might hurt? What about the respect that I deserve? And the 'hurt feelings' are totally imaginary. Telling someone they're ugly really hurts their feelings. Telling someone in passing that I don't like, for example, some TV show they like? How does that 'hurt their feelings'? It's just a difference of opinion, and anyone who takes a difference of opinion as an attack on them needs to grow up, in my opinion.

And the thing is, looking for a non-critical fanning circle is fine in theory, but no circle of fans is ever going to be totally in agreement forever more. Eventually someone is going to say something someone else doesn't like, and then because the group is so fixated on totally agreeing with each other, they won't know how to handle it and end up at each other's throats.

Edited because some weird confusing word ended up in the subject line. I didn't put it there, unless I'm losing my mind. :-)

Edited again to add that I think my expressed opinions tend to be rather more critical and grumpy than most other fans because I'm old and crotchety. I used to wonder why old people were so grumpy. Now I know why. :-)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

But people should state those 'boundaries' upfront. Anyone who just dumps someone that they 'friended' simply because they don't agree with everything they like or dislike doesn't deserve respect, in my opinion.

Agreed! --Though this gets into the confusing territory of internet "friends". Some people keep their "friends' list" very small and controlled, and defriending isn't meant as a snub, just that you don't feel like reading someone anymore. Of the people on my "friends' list" I don't consider all of them actual "friends" (though many are!), and I don't assume that anyone who has me friended considers me a personal friend, as opposed to just someone who writes fic they like. If I criticized someone's favorite show and then they removed me from their friends' list, I wouldn't take offense at it (...actually I wouldn't even notice, I don't have friends notifications turned on) - I'd just assume they didn't feel like reading my lj anymore. I've stopped reading people on my own friends' list because their fanning wasn't compatible with my own, and their posts were (entirely unintentionally!) upsetting me, but I didn't want to argue with them about it, or ask them to stop doing something they enjoyed. (I do this even more on Tumblr, where directly engaging people is hard, and it's much easier on my sanity to simply let things go...)

OTOH, if someone's an actual friend, and they cut you off without talking to you about why, that's different. And yeah, someone who doesn't talk to their personal friends when they're upset but just walks away is frankly not worth the trouble of being friends with, in my experience...

Edited again to add that I think my expressed opinions tend to be rather more critical and grumpy than most other fans because I'm old and crotchety. I used to wonder why old people were so grumpy. Now I know why. :-)

Heh, this - I have become so much more picky as I've gotten older. Mostly because I've seen so many things before, it takes a lot more to interest rather than bore me with predictability, or irritate me with old issues...!