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xparrotSo people can join the discussion - ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
gnine posted a long essay on our problems with Keller's character. Feel free to jump in and agree or disagree as you will!
gnine and I have discussed this at length, and she's covered most of our main points, referencing specific episodes. We're not trying to change anyone's minds about the character; really, we're more trying to offer explanations for people who don't like her but can't figure out why. Reading over the essay and comments, I think the biggest question for me comes down to Why Keller?
Why is Keller the head of medicine on Atlantis, and not another older, more experienced doctor? Why is she sitting with the team in "Doppelganger" when we've never seen anyone else sit with them, not Elizabeth or Carson or Heightmeyer or Lorne? Why is Ronon interested in her after nine years of celibacy, out of all the other women on Atlantis and elsewhere in Pegasus? Why does Rodney say "I love you" to her when we never heard him say it to Katie Brown or Sam or anyone else?
Why are we watching this character, and not some other character?
It's not that I dislike Keller. I just don't understand why we're expected to care about her in particular when the show's barely made an effort to distinguish her from anyone else.
Why is she head of medicine, and not anyone else? Most of the characters on the show are defined by their roles first and foremost, so Keller should be as well. It's not that she's a bad doctor - she's quite competent. But we've never seen any hint that she's better than any other doctor on Atlantis or in the SGC. There's no reason it's her and not someone else; there's no reason why she couldn't be replaced by the IOA tomorrow. Carson dies and leaves behind a huge body of research for people have to follow up on, and none of them seem as good at it as him. Elizabeth dies and they need to bring in Samantha Carter, smartest women in two galaxies, to replace her. (I should also note here that I saw similar problems with Elizabeth as I do with Keller...and I never liked Elizabeth much, either.) What legacy would Keller leave; what does she do, what does she bring to Atlantis (the city or the show) that no one else could?
Why is Rodney head of science & research on Atlantis, and not anyone else?
Because he's the smartest man in two galaxies. We've been told this. A lot. We've also seen him outthink other scientists on multiple occasions. Plus he had years of experience with the SGC.
Why is Sheppard the head of the military and teamleader, and not anyone else?
Because the SGC actively recruited him thanks to his super-gene, and then he shot his commanding officer and was the next highest rank, and being stranded in another galaxy no one could replace him. Then Elizabeth fought to keep him in place once they got back in contact with Earth, because she knew and trusted working with him.
Why is Elizabeth the first head of the expedition, and not anyone else?
Because she was in a position of power in the SGC (thanks to political maneuvering in SG-1) and got control of the project. Also she has unique international diplomacy skills that make her well-suited to heading a multi-national expedition. But mostly it's because she was maneuvered into position; like John, it's as much a matter of circumstance as individual skills.
Why is Sam Carter the second head, and not anyone else?
Because she's the smartest woman in two galaxies, and thanks to ten years on SG-1, has the hero clout to get any position she wants. And she wanted the challenge of Atlantis.
Why is Woolsey the third head, and not anyone else?
Because he's the IOA's established pawn, and they want control.
Why is Carson Beckett the first head of Atlantis medicine, and not anyone else?
Because he's a skilled surgeon and a geneticist, and he has a powerful manifestation of the ATA gene. Carson's gene means that he could have beat many people otherwise more qualified for the original position.
Why is Teyla on the main team, and not anyone else?
Because as the leader of the first people they contacted, she had significant diplomatic influence, and she has more experience with the rest of Pegasus than the other Athosians. Again, Teyla's position is as much a matter of circumstance as skill; she had no competition.
Why is Ronon on the main team, and not anyone else?
Because he can take down Wraith with his bare hands, and John, realizing this, begged and pleaded and whined to Elizabeth until she let him have Ronon on the team.
Why was Ford on the main team, and not anyone else?
We don't know. See also: why Ford never starred in a single episode, why Ford was dropped after first season, and why most of us never liked Ford anywhere near as much as the rest of the cast. We never understood why we were supposed to care about Ford, when it seemed like nearly anyone could do what he did. And for the most part, we didn't care.
Why is Zelenka Rodney's second? Why is Lorne John's second? Why are Chuck and Amelia gate technicians? Why was Heightmeyer the base psychologist?
We don't know - we can guess (Radek is plenty smart; Lorne has the gene and previous experience in SG-1) - but we've never been told. We don't know - and we don't have to care. We've become fond of them over time, depending on how amused we are by their quirks, but they're not developed characters, and the audience is not required to care about a single one of them. There's never been an episode that the major plot depended on caring whether any of them lived or died. If any of them did die, they could easily be replaced without fanfare. They're friends with the main characters, but not best friends; they're not key romantic interests. They're only in episodes erratically; if they were never in another episode again, we'd wonder where they went, but it wouldn't be that surprising, and the show wouldn't need to explain their fate.
Kanaan and Katie Brown are romantic interests, but the audience is again, not intended to bond with them the same as with the major characters. They only relate to a single main character (we only briefly saw Kanaan with anyone but Teyla; we never saw Katie talk to anyone but Rodney) - their purpose is to develop the main character they're involved with, not to be characters in their own right. We are expected to care about what happens to them only insofar as it directly impacts our main characters - we never heard about Katie Brown until she got involved with Rodney, and we'll never hear about her again, now that she's out of Rodney's life. Even Jeannie, much as I love her, doesn't have any place on Atlantis except in direct relation to Rodney; she's not used otherwise.
There are single-episode characters we are on occasion intended to bond with in their own right, that the episodes hinge on us caring about them in addition to the leads. Kiryk the Runner in "Tracker" is one such - these characters are hit-or-miss anyway, and still, steps are often taken to establish why we should be caring about this person. Kiryk is special from the beginning because he's a Runner; we know right there that he must be unusually skilled. We are intended to care about him in part because he's there to give us insight on Ronon, information on Runners. Also, if we don't care about him, he's not there next week; we only need to care once. It's a decent risk for a show to take.
If Keller were a secondary character, I would not have a problem with her. With Janet Frasier on SG-1, it was never specified how she got her position - but the show never required us to care about Janet as much as the main characters (or maybe it did? It's been years since I've watched SG-1. If there were Janet-focused episodes, I've quite forgotten them...) She was never as important to the main characters as they were to each other; we didn't see them risking their lives specifically to save her. Nor did we have episodes that the plot depended on whether she survived (save her last episode.) In fact, in several episodes Janet is an antagonistic character; we're meant to side with the main characters against her. And she wasn't romantically involved with two of the main cast.
I wouldn't mind if Keller got an episode once in a while; I wouldn't even mind if she had a minor background affair with one of the main characters. I mind that she's had three episodes center around her this season thus far while Teyla and Ronon and Rodney have each had one-and-a-half, and John's had none. I mind that both Ronon and Rodney are showing so much interest in her - more than any other woman before, in Ronon's case. I mind because Keller's not just a random blueshirt extra; she's Atlantis's head of medicine, and she's in the opening credits, and I don't understand why she deserves this much attention.
And I especially mind because I have a hard time not seeing it as sexist. I can't help but see it as the writers believing that Jewel Staite is answer enough. I seriously doubt the writers would've added, say, Jared Padalecki to the cast, replacing Carson as the new head doctor Gene Keller, given him no specific defined skills, had both Sam and Teyla fall in love with him, and never once explained why he came to Atlantis to begin with. But with Keller, she's a cute girl, so what other reason does she need to be there?
ETA: Much more here - I had an epiphany about why these questions matter to me, and in lieu of posting another essay, I put my latest rant in the comments.
I also want to thank the exceptionally patienthorridporrid, who is a Keller fan. If you also like the character, I definitely recommend that you check out her essays and episode reviews - I disagree on most points concerning Keller, but they're a well-written, considered, positive take on the char.
gnine posted a long essay on our problems with Keller's character. Feel free to jump in and agree or disagree as you will!gnine and I have discussed this at length, and she's covered most of our main points, referencing specific episodes. We're not trying to change anyone's minds about the character; really, we're more trying to offer explanations for people who don't like her but can't figure out why. Reading over the essay and comments, I think the biggest question for me comes down to Why Keller?Why is Keller the head of medicine on Atlantis, and not another older, more experienced doctor? Why is she sitting with the team in "Doppelganger" when we've never seen anyone else sit with them, not Elizabeth or Carson or Heightmeyer or Lorne? Why is Ronon interested in her after nine years of celibacy, out of all the other women on Atlantis and elsewhere in Pegasus? Why does Rodney say "I love you" to her when we never heard him say it to Katie Brown or Sam or anyone else?
Why are we watching this character, and not some other character?
It's not that I dislike Keller. I just don't understand why we're expected to care about her in particular when the show's barely made an effort to distinguish her from anyone else.
Why is she head of medicine, and not anyone else? Most of the characters on the show are defined by their roles first and foremost, so Keller should be as well. It's not that she's a bad doctor - she's quite competent. But we've never seen any hint that she's better than any other doctor on Atlantis or in the SGC. There's no reason it's her and not someone else; there's no reason why she couldn't be replaced by the IOA tomorrow. Carson dies and leaves behind a huge body of research for people have to follow up on, and none of them seem as good at it as him. Elizabeth dies and they need to bring in Samantha Carter, smartest women in two galaxies, to replace her. (I should also note here that I saw similar problems with Elizabeth as I do with Keller...and I never liked Elizabeth much, either.) What legacy would Keller leave; what does she do, what does she bring to Atlantis (the city or the show) that no one else could?
Why is Rodney head of science & research on Atlantis, and not anyone else?
Because he's the smartest man in two galaxies. We've been told this. A lot. We've also seen him outthink other scientists on multiple occasions. Plus he had years of experience with the SGC.
Why is Sheppard the head of the military and teamleader, and not anyone else?
Because the SGC actively recruited him thanks to his super-gene, and then he shot his commanding officer and was the next highest rank, and being stranded in another galaxy no one could replace him. Then Elizabeth fought to keep him in place once they got back in contact with Earth, because she knew and trusted working with him.
Why is Elizabeth the first head of the expedition, and not anyone else?
Because she was in a position of power in the SGC (thanks to political maneuvering in SG-1) and got control of the project. Also she has unique international diplomacy skills that make her well-suited to heading a multi-national expedition. But mostly it's because she was maneuvered into position; like John, it's as much a matter of circumstance as individual skills.
Why is Sam Carter the second head, and not anyone else?
Because she's the smartest woman in two galaxies, and thanks to ten years on SG-1, has the hero clout to get any position she wants. And she wanted the challenge of Atlantis.
Why is Woolsey the third head, and not anyone else?
Because he's the IOA's established pawn, and they want control.
Why is Carson Beckett the first head of Atlantis medicine, and not anyone else?
Because he's a skilled surgeon and a geneticist, and he has a powerful manifestation of the ATA gene. Carson's gene means that he could have beat many people otherwise more qualified for the original position.
Why is Teyla on the main team, and not anyone else?
Because as the leader of the first people they contacted, she had significant diplomatic influence, and she has more experience with the rest of Pegasus than the other Athosians. Again, Teyla's position is as much a matter of circumstance as skill; she had no competition.
Why is Ronon on the main team, and not anyone else?
Because he can take down Wraith with his bare hands, and John, realizing this, begged and pleaded and whined to Elizabeth until she let him have Ronon on the team.
Why was Ford on the main team, and not anyone else?
We don't know. See also: why Ford never starred in a single episode, why Ford was dropped after first season, and why most of us never liked Ford anywhere near as much as the rest of the cast. We never understood why we were supposed to care about Ford, when it seemed like nearly anyone could do what he did. And for the most part, we didn't care.
Why is Zelenka Rodney's second? Why is Lorne John's second? Why are Chuck and Amelia gate technicians? Why was Heightmeyer the base psychologist?
We don't know - we can guess (Radek is plenty smart; Lorne has the gene and previous experience in SG-1) - but we've never been told. We don't know - and we don't have to care. We've become fond of them over time, depending on how amused we are by their quirks, but they're not developed characters, and the audience is not required to care about a single one of them. There's never been an episode that the major plot depended on caring whether any of them lived or died. If any of them did die, they could easily be replaced without fanfare. They're friends with the main characters, but not best friends; they're not key romantic interests. They're only in episodes erratically; if they were never in another episode again, we'd wonder where they went, but it wouldn't be that surprising, and the show wouldn't need to explain their fate.
Kanaan and Katie Brown are romantic interests, but the audience is again, not intended to bond with them the same as with the major characters. They only relate to a single main character (we only briefly saw Kanaan with anyone but Teyla; we never saw Katie talk to anyone but Rodney) - their purpose is to develop the main character they're involved with, not to be characters in their own right. We are expected to care about what happens to them only insofar as it directly impacts our main characters - we never heard about Katie Brown until she got involved with Rodney, and we'll never hear about her again, now that she's out of Rodney's life. Even Jeannie, much as I love her, doesn't have any place on Atlantis except in direct relation to Rodney; she's not used otherwise.
There are single-episode characters we are on occasion intended to bond with in their own right, that the episodes hinge on us caring about them in addition to the leads. Kiryk the Runner in "Tracker" is one such - these characters are hit-or-miss anyway, and still, steps are often taken to establish why we should be caring about this person. Kiryk is special from the beginning because he's a Runner; we know right there that he must be unusually skilled. We are intended to care about him in part because he's there to give us insight on Ronon, information on Runners. Also, if we don't care about him, he's not there next week; we only need to care once. It's a decent risk for a show to take.
If Keller were a secondary character, I would not have a problem with her. With Janet Frasier on SG-1, it was never specified how she got her position - but the show never required us to care about Janet as much as the main characters (or maybe it did? It's been years since I've watched SG-1. If there were Janet-focused episodes, I've quite forgotten them...) She was never as important to the main characters as they were to each other; we didn't see them risking their lives specifically to save her. Nor did we have episodes that the plot depended on whether she survived (save her last episode.) In fact, in several episodes Janet is an antagonistic character; we're meant to side with the main characters against her. And she wasn't romantically involved with two of the main cast.
I wouldn't mind if Keller got an episode once in a while; I wouldn't even mind if she had a minor background affair with one of the main characters. I mind that she's had three episodes center around her this season thus far while Teyla and Ronon and Rodney have each had one-and-a-half, and John's had none. I mind that both Ronon and Rodney are showing so much interest in her - more than any other woman before, in Ronon's case. I mind because Keller's not just a random blueshirt extra; she's Atlantis's head of medicine, and she's in the opening credits, and I don't understand why she deserves this much attention.
And I especially mind because I have a hard time not seeing it as sexist. I can't help but see it as the writers believing that Jewel Staite is answer enough. I seriously doubt the writers would've added, say, Jared Padalecki to the cast, replacing Carson as the new head doctor Gene Keller, given him no specific defined skills, had both Sam and Teyla fall in love with him, and never once explained why he came to Atlantis to begin with. But with Keller, she's a cute girl, so what other reason does she need to be there?
ETA: Much more here - I had an epiphany about why these questions matter to me, and in lieu of posting another essay, I put my latest rant in the comments.
I also want to thank the exceptionally patient
horridporrid, who is a Keller fan. If you also like the character, I definitely recommend that you check out her essays and episode reviews - I disagree on most points concerning Keller, but they're a well-written, considered, positive take on the char.
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Re: What ? 2 comments ? We need longer comments capability :p. (part 2)
Date: 2008-09-26 12:57 am (UTC)It just seems like either an impossibly high bar (particularly since it keeps getting raised, imo), or extremely nitpicky (we need to see her actual resume, please).
The bar has never changed as far as I'm concerned. For someone in her position I've never expected less than greatness, and it was never delivered.
And I'm not being nitpick either, but honestly, do we even know her specialty ? We know that Carson was a geneticist, what is Keller ? See I'm not asking for a full CV, just the writers were not even bothered enough to tell us what type of doctor she is ! If that's not super lazy writing then I don't know what is. So what, no more mathematicians, physicist, astrophysicist, biologists, from now on we'll call them all *scientists* because who cares what their field are ? It's not like it's important in the character development ?!?
The terrible thing is that I *wish* I could love the character of the CMO, but I can't ! They are not delivering a believable character, no matter how I look at it !
I read your comments on Gnine entry where you said that you were not all that much into medical shows or medicine, could that explain why you feel she's extraordinary when she does anything remotely medical ? (I'm not judging, just asking)
I need to be impressed because it's a field close to my heart, just like the mathematicians and astrophysicists I've met also wants to be impressed in their field. And apparently they have a very good advisor ont his point, because people are happy with it, it's impressive *enough* that the people working in that field feel happy about it. The medical stuff (and by the way I felt the same way with Carson most of the time, so this particular point is not *only* about Keller) *never* impresses me, I'm always left wanting the *good stuff* (quite recently in the Queen, wehave some sort of operation going on, but they don't ever bother explaining what was done during this operation ! Was that surgery ? Cosmetic surgery ? Make-up ? Gene therapy ? What ??? And at the end, same thing, we only ever get to see that Teyla has no scar, but we still have no idea of what happened. As far as medicine is concerned here, they should have just shouted "Abracadabra" and be done with it. The irony ? It's one of the rare time where they gave Keller a chance to *do* something, and then they completely ruined it by never telling us what it was ! I cannot express my disappointment enough).
I think the writer put her there so that people could think she's cute and kinda funny and kinda able to do some medical stuff (plus she's less than 30 and they needed her for the ridiculous love-triangle-soap thing). I think the writers should have at lest watched a few episodes of ER (of even watched some medical channel) before trying to write a lead as a doctor. They can't write medicine, and it shows.
As xparrot said, thanks for you patience though, you're obviously teying to prove something to us that no matter what we can't see, very probably because our backgrounds are so different, but you've done it always politely, and I do appreciate it :).
(when did this became long enough for 2 comments ???)
Re: What ? 2 comments ? We need longer comments capability :p. (part 2)
Date: 2008-09-26 03:23 am (UTC)Once again it's the writing and directing at fault here, if they don't have a proper medical adviser then they should not write medicine at all.
[...]
I need to be impressed because it's a field close to my heart, just like the mathematicians and astrophysicists I've met also wants to be impressed in their field. And apparently they have a very good advisor ont his point, because people are happy with it...
I think you've hit it on the head here. SGA isn't a medical show, and I think they handwave a lot of the med stuff. It doesn't bother me because I know nothing about it, so I take their handwaving and run with it. :) Like I said...(um, somewhere? I've lost track *g*)... when Jennifer jumps up on Elizabeth's gurney while they wheel her to the infirmary, that's enough to tell me she's an excellent doctor. Totally pathetic if it's a field you know about, of course, but there you are. (I know some military knowledgeable people have been frustrated with how that end of the story has been handled as well.)
So I take Jennifer's medical skills as writ, I take her stepping up to be head as believable enough for the circumstances, and then I look at the rest of her character stuff. And it's that rest that I really enjoy. (They could have made her head of anything really -- just something sciency that has an important role in the day to day life of Atlantis and gets her off world.)
As xparrot said, thanks for you patience though, you're obviously teying to prove something to us that no matter what we can't see, very probably because our backgrounds are so different, but you've done it always politely, and I do appreciate it :).
Thank you. :) I enjoy discussing characters. It's always interesting to see what works and what doesn't and why for different people. At least for me. ;)
And now I'm off to bed. :)
Re: What ? 2 comments ? We need longer comments capability :p. (part 2)
Date: 2008-09-26 03:59 am (UTC)...Actually, SGA does exactly this; there are a lot of people who are just called "scientists" without their field ever being specified. It drives me nuts, but...!