On Keller

[xparrot]

So people can join the discussion - gnine posted a long essay on our problems with Keller's character. Feel free to jump in and agree or disagree as you will!

gnine and I have discussed this at length, and she's covered most of our main points, referencing specific episodes. We're not trying to change anyone's minds about the character; really, we're more trying to offer explanations for people who don't like her but can't figure out why. Reading over the essay and comments, I think the biggest question for me comes down to Why Keller?

Why is Keller the head of medicine on Atlantis, and not another older, more experienced doctor? Why is she sitting with the team in "Doppelganger" when we've never seen anyone else sit with them, not Elizabeth or Carson or Heightmeyer or Lorne? Why is Ronon interested in her after nine years of celibacy, out of all the other women on Atlantis and elsewhere in Pegasus? Why does Rodney say "I love you" to her when we never heard him say it to Katie Brown or Sam or anyone else?

Why are we watching this character, and not some other character?

It's not that I dislike Keller. I just don't understand why we're expected to care about her in particular when the show's barely made an effort to distinguish her from anyone else.

Why is she head of medicine, and not anyone else? Most of the characters on the show are defined by their roles first and foremost, so Keller should be as well. It's not that she's a bad doctor - she's quite competent. But we've never seen any hint that she's better than any other doctor on Atlantis or in the SGC. There's no reason it's her and not someone else; there's no reason why she couldn't be replaced by the IOA tomorrow. Carson dies and leaves behind a huge body of research for people have to follow up on, and none of them seem as good at it as him. Elizabeth dies and they need to bring in Samantha Carter, smartest women in two galaxies, to replace her. (I should also note here that I saw similar problems with Elizabeth as I do with Keller...and I never liked Elizabeth much, either.) What legacy would Keller leave; what does she do, what does she bring to Atlantis (the city or the show) that no one else could?

Why is Rodney head of science & research on Atlantis, and not anyone else?

Because he's the smartest man in two galaxies. We've been told this. A lot. We've also seen him outthink other scientists on multiple occasions. Plus he had years of experience with the SGC.

Why is Sheppard the head of the military and teamleader, and not anyone else?

Because the SGC actively recruited him thanks to his super-gene, and then he shot his commanding officer and was the next highest rank, and being stranded in another galaxy no one could replace him. Then Elizabeth fought to keep him in place once they got back in contact with Earth, because she knew and trusted working with him.

Why is Elizabeth the first head of the expedition, and not anyone else?

Because she was in a position of power in the SGC (thanks to political maneuvering in SG-1) and got control of the project. Also she has unique international diplomacy skills that make her well-suited to heading a multi-national expedition. But mostly it's because she was maneuvered into position; like John, it's as much a matter of circumstance as individual skills.

Why is Sam Carter the second head, and not anyone else?

Because she's the smartest woman in two galaxies, and thanks to ten years on SG-1, has the hero clout to get any position she wants. And she wanted the challenge of Atlantis.

Why is Woolsey the third head, and not anyone else?

Because he's the IOA's established pawn, and they want control.

Why is Carson Beckett the first head of Atlantis medicine, and not anyone else?

Because he's a skilled surgeon and a geneticist, and he has a powerful manifestation of the ATA gene. Carson's gene means that he could have beat many people otherwise more qualified for the original position.

Why is Teyla on the main team, and not anyone else?

Because as the leader of the first people they contacted, she had significant diplomatic influence, and she has more experience with the rest of Pegasus than the other Athosians. Again, Teyla's position is as much a matter of circumstance as skill; she had no competition.

Why is Ronon on the main team, and not anyone else?

Because he can take down Wraith with his bare hands, and John, realizing this, begged and pleaded and whined to Elizabeth until she let him have Ronon on the team.

Why was Ford on the main team, and not anyone else?

We don't know. See also: why Ford never starred in a single episode, why Ford was dropped after first season, and why most of us never liked Ford anywhere near as much as the rest of the cast. We never understood why we were supposed to care about Ford, when it seemed like nearly anyone could do what he did. And for the most part, we didn't care.

Why is Zelenka Rodney's second? Why is Lorne John's second? Why are Chuck and Amelia gate technicians? Why was Heightmeyer the base psychologist?

We don't know - we can guess (Radek is plenty smart; Lorne has the gene and previous experience in SG-1) - but we've never been told. We don't know - and we don't have to care. We've become fond of them over time, depending on how amused we are by their quirks, but they're not developed characters, and the audience is not required to care about a single one of them. There's never been an episode that the major plot depended on caring whether any of them lived or died. If any of them did die, they could easily be replaced without fanfare. They're friends with the main characters, but not best friends; they're not key romantic interests. They're only in episodes erratically; if they were never in another episode again, we'd wonder where they went, but it wouldn't be that surprising, and the show wouldn't need to explain their fate.

Kanaan and Katie Brown are romantic interests, but the audience is again, not intended to bond with them the same as with the major characters. They only relate to a single main character (we only briefly saw Kanaan with anyone but Teyla; we never saw Katie talk to anyone but Rodney) - their purpose is to develop the main character they're involved with, not to be characters in their own right. We are expected to care about what happens to them only insofar as it directly impacts our main characters - we never heard about Katie Brown until she got involved with Rodney, and we'll never hear about her again, now that she's out of Rodney's life. Even Jeannie, much as I love her, doesn't have any place on Atlantis except in direct relation to Rodney; she's not used otherwise.

There are single-episode characters we are on occasion intended to bond with in their own right, that the episodes hinge on us caring about them in addition to the leads. Kiryk the Runner in "Tracker" is one such - these characters are hit-or-miss anyway, and still, steps are often taken to establish why we should be caring about this person. Kiryk is special from the beginning because he's a Runner; we know right there that he must be unusually skilled. We are intended to care about him in part because he's there to give us insight on Ronon, information on Runners. Also, if we don't care about him, he's not there next week; we only need to care once. It's a decent risk for a show to take.

If Keller were a secondary character, I would not have a problem with her. With Janet Frasier on SG-1, it was never specified how she got her position - but the show never required us to care about Janet as much as the main characters (or maybe it did? It's been years since I've watched SG-1. If there were Janet-focused episodes, I've quite forgotten them...) She was never as important to the main characters as they were to each other; we didn't see them risking their lives specifically to save her. Nor did we have episodes that the plot depended on whether she survived (save her last episode.) In fact, in several episodes Janet is an antagonistic character; we're meant to side with the main characters against her. And she wasn't romantically involved with two of the main cast.

I wouldn't mind if Keller got an episode once in a while; I wouldn't even mind if she had a minor background affair with one of the main characters. I mind that she's had three episodes center around her this season thus far while Teyla and Ronon and Rodney have each had one-and-a-half, and John's had none. I mind that both Ronon and Rodney are showing so much interest in her - more than any other woman before, in Ronon's case. I mind because Keller's not just a random blueshirt extra; she's Atlantis's head of medicine, and she's in the opening credits, and I don't understand why she deserves this much attention.

And I especially mind because I have a hard time not seeing it as sexist. I can't help but see it as the writers believing that Jewel Staite is answer enough. I seriously doubt the writers would've added, say, Jared Padalecki to the cast, replacing Carson as the new head doctor Gene Keller, given him no specific defined skills, had both Sam and Teyla fall in love with him, and never once explained why he came to Atlantis to begin with. But with Keller, she's a cute girl, so what other reason does she need to be there?

ETA: Much more here - I had an epiphany about why these questions matter to me, and in lieu of posting another essay, I put my latest rant in the comments.

I also want to thank the exceptionally patient horridporrid, who is a Keller fan. If you also like the character, I definitely recommend that you check out her essays and episode reviews - I disagree on most points concerning Keller, but they're a well-written, considered, positive take on the char.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Hmm... well I've read through your post and the other one you linked to a couple times and I'm not really sure I'm seeing the "problem" - I can understand the concerns but it doesn't seem to be that big of a deal to me.

Also for every complaint against Keller there's an equal number for every other character - people don't like John or Rodney or Carson or Teyla or Ronon for the exact same reasons - they don't GET them or understand why they're there. They think John is to immature to be a military leader. They think Rodney is to much of an ass to be an acceptable head of the Science Department. They think Carson's ethics are horrible and so on and so forth. So it's not like Keller is the ONLY character with problems that people don't like. Or that she's the only character people don't get and wish she wasn't around as much.

So really I'm not seeing why she is more of a problem than the other characters except for what you said near the end - that she's taking time away from the Team and interfering with the team dynamic. THAT's the only truth that makes sense to me to be honest. I think they've made the same mistakes with her that they did with Carson in season 2 - I love Carson dearly just like I love all of the characters, but he never should have been made a main character because he got stuffed into too many episodes and ended up being in the way a lot. I

That said I still love the show and I can accept Keller as a character simply because I don't think she's any better or worse than the other characters. To be honest I think she fits right in with the rest of them - yeah I think she's over used at times but still - I like her enough that I can accept it. Just like I loved Carson even when I thought he as there to much or he had bad ethics. Just like I love Rodney when he's being an obnoxious pain in the ass. Just like I love John when he's being overly "kirkish" and so on and so forth.

J

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hmm. Actually I think everyone's justified to have characters they don't like; if you want to write an essay about why Rodney shouldn't get so much screen-time, or John, or Teyla, or anyone - more power to you! I might argue your point, if you're open for discussion, but I'll fully support your right to have the opinion. We all watch the show for different reasons, and there's nothing wrong with wanting the show to be different, and better from your point of view.

I guess what it comes down to, for me, is that Keller's boring. All the other characters are flawed and people don't like them for various reasons, but I can understand why other people do like them. With Keller, I don't understand what makes her more interesting than Zelenka, or Lorne, or Heightmeyer, etc, etc. She gets more screentime than them - she gets more screentime than Ronon or Teyla, even - and they haven't given her enough character to justify it. It's not that I'm anti-Keller, so much as I'm anti-Keller at the expense of everyone else.

YMMV, though. I didn't like Carson so much when he took the spotlight, for the same reason, and Keller's getting more of a spotlight than Carson did.

And like I said, I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion - if you do like her, awesome. I don't, and this is one reason why.

[(Anonymous)]

I guess the problem for me is I've never really seen the point of all this meta stuff. Sure sometimes the discussion is thoughtful but all I've ever seen is both sides getting hurt and neither coming to any kind of agreement about anything. I was reading through the comments on that post you liked and it seems like neither side is willing to budge an inch and are going in circles - and contradicting themselves while doing it. What good does any of that do? Okay fine you like the character or you don't like the character - just say so and leave it at that. I don't need a detailed list either way.

[greyias.livejournal.com]

Honestly, I think your arguments are all very valid (and honestly, I didn't realize how much fanon background I'd given Keller up until these meta posts. Turns out... a lot.) I'm not sure if any of this constitutes as an argument, agreement, or something else. But I think, for me, it boils down to:

the writers believing that Jewel Staite is answer enough

And honestly, everything else aside, I think this is the real answer. This is not meant as a knock against Jewel Staite, Keller's character, or even the writers. This is the way Hollywood works. This is the way it would work even if she were the quirkiest, most well-defined character in the history of television.

She is Jewel Staite, she is a known name in both the science fiction realm as well as regular television -- because of Firefly, and all of the press surrounding the movie. She's also affordable because she's not quite an A-list actor. They can take her name and her face and put it on posters, and someone who's never seen or heard of Stargate, but might have looked up from their coffee during the Serenity media blitz. I can be inundated with all of the hype, but for me, her being brought to the show was purely for marketing reasons. And Martin Gero's publicly admitted crush.

And... I waffle between true irritation at this and resigned acceptance. This is the way the industry works, it's the way it will work for a good time (hopefully not forever, but little has changed in Hollywood politics since the 1930s, so I don't hold a lot of hope.)

Of course, I've taken a little bit of an ostrich approach to this. SGA is my happy place, and I'm very determined to keep it that way.

Why does Rodney say "I love you" to her when we never heard him say it to Katie Brown or Sam or anyone else?

Lazy writing. *wince* I love "The Shrine", obviously with how much I squealed, squeed, and squailed about it. That ending scene, though, MADE. NO. SENSE. I could write an entire essay on how much, the scene as written and directed, both counting and discounting canon, did not belong there. Honestly, as much as I love Brad Wright as a writer, I'm not sure he took into account, because of the situation and issues the episode deals with, how utterly unromantic and wrong that final scene can be read as.

Honestly, it just seemed like a quick, dirty, and very annoying shortcut to take rather than taking the time to do tiny little things that would take like maybe a second to establish as actions are happening in the background. And while it's not the only thing that irritates me, it's a big factor. There's no reason to take these stupid shortcuts.

I mind that she's had three episodes center around her this season

I'm thinking I'm having a senile moment. I can only think of two (Seed and Tracker), what's the third?

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

And honestly, everything else aside, I think this is the real answer. This is not meant as a knock against Jewel Staite, Keller's character, or even the writers. This is the way Hollywood works. This is the way it would work even if she were the quirkiest, most well-defined character in the history of television.

This is true. Frustrating, but true. Sigh!

Still, I think they could've handled it/her better. Jewel's a great actor, she deserves a good part! The writers are incredibly lazy with her - they're relying on us to make her a likable character. They're relying on us to smooth over the discrepancies in her character and fill in the gaps in her motivations - they're counting on us to provide that fanon background that you mentioned (because yes, as far as I can tell, most of the Keller fans have a story for her that's largely unsupported by the canon, but hasn't been specifically denied, either, so they can maintain it.)

...Which is where I feel a bit hypocritical, because if I liked the character I'd be tempted to just play along, help make up fanon. I can think of motivations to ascribe to her, we just haven't been given any. But the whole McKeller thing, and the triangle thing, and the getting-more-Keller-instead-of-more-Team, makes me cranky enough that I don't want to play along. Phooey! XP

Honestly, as much as I love Brad Wright as a writer, I'm not sure he took into account, because of the situation and issues the episode deals with, how utterly unromantic and wrong that final scene can be read as.

Actually, read unromantically, I kind of find the last scene fascinating - seriously, in Jennifer's place, I'd be wigged out more than touched, by a guy I've casually dated telling me he loves me when he's brain damaged. (you might also want to check out this essay on it, because it basically proves that whatever Wright intended, what he actually wrote is the McSheppiest scene in the whole show...)

I count "The Shrine" as a Keller episode - it's primarily a Rodney episode, but Keller is definitely the second major character; she's in most of the scenes, and the episode begins and ends with her. I think she's probably got more screentime in "The Shrine" than in "The Seed", even though the other characters spend more time talking about her in "The Seed."

[greyias.livejournal.com]

But the whole McKeller thing, and the triangle thing, and the getting-more-Keller-instead-of-more-Team, makes me cranky enough that I don't want to play along. Phooey! XP

Haha... I'd probably be much closer to this mindset if this weren't the last season and I hadn't become so deeply entrenched in my mindset of "I will have something to squee about every episode this season" except "Whispers"... I seriously need to show you the one bit of video I did manage to put together. I am... slightly disgruntled about the screen time she's getting this year, but probably just because it's the last year. I'd like to think, though, that if the writers had known that this season was going to be it, this would be a non-issue.

Sadly, this is not the case. *sigh* Maybe I'll just shake my fist at Joe Mallozzi and his stupid "season of romance". Way to harsh on my squee, buddy.

Actually, read unromantically, I kind of find the last scene fascinating - seriously, in Jennifer's place, I'd be wigged out more than touched, by a guy I've casually dated telling me he loves me when he's brain damaged.

YES. It took me five times before I finally figured out, that was what was bugging me. Honest-to-god, I cannot get on board the idea that any woman, much less Keller, could find that flattering. Especially, when you take in the context of the fact that she had no clue that Rodney was even interested in her romantically until the fruitcup thing -- which was what? Six days before hand?

And that when you take into account the fact that she was probably waiting on him almost hand-and-foot, and was showing a great amount of concern -- I can see how someone who is mentally degenerating can mistake gratitude for love, or gratitude + burgeoning crush for love. And then he doesn't have the presence of mind to say it to her off of the official medical record, so you know, anyone who has a look at it can see that and call her questions into action. If I were in either her or Rodney's position, I would be mortified. (Especially Rodney, after the fact.)

Of course, he's also her friend, and he tells her this -- yet he very clearly doesn't take comfort in her presence ten days later. Yet he loves her? I can see why she'd be watching that over and over again, because the actions do not match up with the words.

And, if they addressed all of this somehow, I would actually be happy with that scene. I would be estatic if they put that much thought into it. Right now though, it's still in wait-and-see mode -- but if they go the route that the scene seemed to suggest on initial viewing, that Keller somehow found that touching, I'll probably wind up crossing over into the anti-Keller camp, because... just not cool.

(you might also want to check out this essay on it, because it basically proves that whatever Wright intended, what he actually wrote is the McSheppiest scene in the whole show...)

I've kind of been avoiding reading those kind of essays. It's not the content of the essays that trip me up, because they're usually very well-thought out. Inevitably, I'll wind up reading the comments section, which is where I'll wind up getting irritated and disgruntled. I find it kind of strange, because I'm definitely OTF on John and Rodney, with the occasional dipping of the toes into the OTP arena.

(This is why I confuse myself so often.)

I count "The Shrine" as a Keller episode - it's primarily a Rodney episode, but Keller is definitely the second major character

Ah, that makes sense. I generally see this more as John's episode than hers, although perhaps that's because in a tiny way, she's almost the episode's antagonist -- as she's causing the friction and resistance against the primary characters: the team. (And I always side with the team, sorry Keller.)

Of course, I think "The Seed" is much more of a Woolsey episode than a Keller episode. Which reminds me... they have not fed my Woolsey crush in the past few episodes. This begs the question... Why not Woolsey?

Because he doesn't look as cute in leather... oh, ow, I just blinded myself with that mental image.

[lysambre.livejournal.com]

So far those are the reasons I find for Keller's presence on Atlantis : She's young and cute... and that's about it I think... hum let me see.... nope, I think I'm really done.

Despite what TPTB say, I think they had planned the cancellation of SGA to make SGU a long time ago, and Keller was their very first step in that direction. They needed to know how much audience a cute blond could bring to SGA, AND, don't forget, they could begin to train at writing super crappy soap-like "action" (read : romance).

The writers are terrible at writing women to begin with, so give them one that is nothing more than a sexual object and they'll do whatever they can with it (which isn't much).

Because Keller is certainly not CMO because of her talent, nor her field experience, nor her ability to keep a straight head and think fast, and apparently she's not known for having the gene either (forgive me for thinking that it's an important part of the position in a city where most of the medical equipement they discover might need to be gene activated), if anything, Marie was a lot more suited to the position as she had been Carson's assitant and quite competent as that (but alas Marie was not only "ethnic" but also waaaaaaaaay above their demographic (For crying out loud, the woman was old ! At least... 30 or something ! ewwww)!

My main point when I talk about Keller is : Take her off the picture... watch an episode... what does it change ?
...
...
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Yep, nothing (reminds me of Ford). Because she's an object, not a person. And because she's got no special talent (apart from being lucky to be in the right age range), she can't be missed anywhere, anybody could do what she does (see the Shrine, where John has to be the one to find all the solutions for an emergency field-operation; I'm sorry, but after a lot of crap like that this was the final straw for me, if she's completely unable to improvise on her own then she should be sent back to Earth for field training, or be put in an SG team, still for training, and someone needing training to that level should certainly never be made chief of anything).

So yeah, Keller = useless in my opinion. I just wish she wasn't there to take the Team screentime just because Brad Wright and Robert Cooper are having a creepy mid-life crisis.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I don't think TPTB were deliberately trying to cancel SGA - especially because Mallozzi & Mullie, the current showrunners, thus far are not signed onto SGU. So they would've been possibly writing themselves out of a job...(maybe that wouldn't be such a bad thing. M&M are, um, they could be more talented.)

Even more than Jewel Staite being young, greyias points out that she's Jewel Staite - the writers think her fanboy cred and perky smile is reason enough for her presence. I don't think Keller's entirely useless - she's definitely done some real medicine - but she's done relatively little that any reasonable skilled physician or surgeon couldn't do. And she's got all those negatives against her that haven't been countered. Yeah, I don't understand how she got her position, as opposed to a thousand other doctors on Earth...

Oh well. Best we can do is hope for more team and less Keller, in the coming eps!

[lysambre.livejournal.com]

I don't think TPTB were deliberately trying to cancel SGA - especially because Mallozzi & Mullie, the current showrunners, thus far are not signed onto SGU.

Sorry I explained myself badly, what I call the PTB concerning the stargate franchise are : Brad Wright, Robert Cooper, Sci-Fi and MGM. Malozzi and Mullie were, I believe, as suprised as everyone else, but everything TBTP have said suggest that they had this in mind for a long time. And let's not kid ourselves, Malozzi and Mullie might be the "executive producers" for SGA, but they have no power over anything apart their writing, Malozzi himself keeps telling us that in his blog.

You want to know what sealed that belief for me (the cancellation planned way ahead)? The fact that Wright gave us the Shrine (probably the closest the Stargate franchise will ever come to say : yes, we know those guys could be gay, but we can't give you more than this, enjoy nonetheless). It was basically his goodbye to SGA by saying to the fans (both the McSheppers and those who like the friendship only between those two) : here, I give you this as a parting gift, it's the best I can do to make you happy. Why do you think the annoncement came right before that episode aired ? (Sorry, but I do not believe in coincidences)

And yes, I agree that they might have also thought that just bringing Jewel Staite into it would be enough, once again a proof they don't know the fans that well and think us a lot less smart than we are (and I'm not even all that smart to begin with !).

I read Gnine essay after I left my comment on this last night, and wanted to thank you for linking us, because the both of you pinpointed the problems perfectly :)

[piplover.livejournal.com]

You've both pretty much said exactly what I've been thinking about that character.

People keep insisting that Keller is just young, she's not a soldier, she's not a bad doctor. Ok, true. But, honestly? She's also the kind of person I would not want in charge of my health if I was in another galaxy.

For every episode Keller is in, there is one thing we can count her saying - "I can't do it." "It can't be done." I'm sorry, but if I am suffering from some unknown space disease, I want a doctor who says, "No matter what, we'll do anything we can to fix you." Not, "I'm sorry, I can't do anything."

Example, if not for Woolsey, Keller never would have tried anything for Carson. If not for Jennie, she never would have let Rodney go to the Shrine, and if not for John, she never would have operated. If I'm in a situation where a native tells the doctor to try something, I don't care if it's shaking a rattle and chanting, I want that doctor to try everything!

Stargate is supposed to be about exploration, about people pushing the boundaries, about hope. All Keller seems to add to the story is negativity and a can't do attitude. I don't know about anyone else, but I enjoy Stargate a lot more when the characters say, "Yes we can!" rather than "No, I just can't!"

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

She's also the kind of person I would not want in charge of my health if I was in another galaxy.

Exactly. And the problem I have is that it's not like Keller's the only doctor in the world - Atlantis is connected to Earth; there are a lot of doctors out there. You're telling me that none of them want the job? That Keller is more qualified than anyone else, even though she's inexperienced and doesn't want the position?

All Keller seems to add to the story is negativity and a can't do attitude. I don't know about anyone else, but I enjoy Stargate a lot more when the characters say, "Yes we can!" rather than "No, I just can't!"

Well, Rodney can have a pretty negative attitude sometimes. But people get pissed with him about it - John smacks him upside the head and yells at him to get to it. Everyone just pats Keller comfortingly and tells her she can do it.

It's also a problem that pessimism and lack of confidence is an especially bad trait in a doctor, more than it is in a scientist like Rodney. It screws up your bedside manner something fierce if you've gotta be psyched into saving someone's life...

[trystings.livejournal.com]

Oh, you! I haven't even commented on the sexual chemistry meta yet! Stop it.

Devil's Advocate:

Why is Keller the head of medicine on Atlantis, and not another older, more experienced doctor?

Because Joe M. thought she was wonderful in Instinct and wanted her back at the first opportunity, which was as a replacement for Carson. Would an older actress have worked better in that role? Absolutely. But TPTB are desperately trying to hang on to that 18-24 year male audience and hoped it would work.

Why is she sitting with the team in "Doppelganger" when we've never seen anyone else sit with them, not Elizabeth or Carson or Heightmeyer or Lorne?

Well okay, that made perfect sense to me. They needed a setup so she could reminisce about her worst nightmare and Sheppard wasn't there, so I didn't feel like she was intruding on the team. And at the end, when no one wants to go to sleep they all gather at the same table in the mess hall, including Carter. One big unhappy family mourning the loss of an important expedition member.

Why is Ronon interested in her after nine years of celibacy, out of all the other women on Atlantis and elsewhere in Pegasus?

Why not Keller? He sees her often, what with all the sparring accidents and she is a doctor, like his late wife, so that's something familiar to him. And he can't stay celibate forever. A part of character development is moving on.

Why does Rodney say "I love you" to her when we never heard him say it to Katie Brown or Sam or anyone else.

Because it was day 6 and he was losing it. And he always overstates his intentions and feelings. And screaming 'Where's JOHNNNN???!! I want John!!' when the supposed object of his desire is standing behind the camara taping him says more about that statement than anything else.


Seriously though, I agree with you on most points. My main peeve is that she's too young for the part. Keller would have been great as a secondary character, but to put her in the position as Head of Medicine, well, it's a bit of a stretch.

You have to take into account real life production problems though. Rachel Luttrell was pregnant, so they gave her extra time off (which I'm sure she appreciated), but it meant less screen time. I know from Joe M.'s blog that Jason Momoa was cut out of a number of scenes around the time his wife [ETA or girlfriend - not sure] was due, because they couldn't risk for him not being there during crucial takes. All that meant extra scenes for Keller and they probably thought they had established her character enough to give her even more screen time in season 5 and give the show a slightly "younger" look.

So I can live with her character. I just hate, hate, hate the stupid love-triangle. It doesn't work for me; Jennifer doesn't seem romantically interested in Rodney (more freaked out at being alone with him actually), Rodney falls in love with every woman who shows a mild interest and Jason Momoa already confessed in an interview he doesn't think that Keller is Ronon's type. There's no sexual tension, no romance, the people involved don't seem to want it. It fails on all levels.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Sorry! ^^; I can't help the meta, it just comes...

Because Joe M. thought she was wonderful in Instinct and wanted her back at the first opportunity, which was as a replacement for Carson. Would an older actress have worked better in that role? Absolutely. But TPTB are desperately trying to hang on to that 18-24 year male audience and hoped it would work.

More than the male audience - Jewel Staite could potentially bring the Firefly fans, of both sexes. And she is a fun actor, I like her. The thing that gets me is that they could, if they'd thought for like 5 minutes, come up with some reason for her to be on Atlantis despite her age. It's not like she's the first youthful doctor on TV! They just needed to give her some special ability or personal connection or history or something. Instead of just *handwave*

Well okay, that made perfect sense to me. They needed a setup so she could reminisce about her worst nightmare and Sheppard wasn't there, so I didn't feel like she was intruding on the team.

I didn't mind it that much at the time, but in retrospect it bugs me just because we never see anyone else eating with the team - and then in "Quarantine" Keller is going on about how she never fits in anywhere, and it's like, um, you seem better socially adjusted than any other character on Atlantis, please be quiet?

I know there were production issues last season, reasons for them to use her character a lot, but they're giving Keller an even bigger part this season, and they just aren't providing the characterization to back it up. Especially since now they think forced romance is a perfectly good substitute for developing actual character relationships. Argh!

[runpunkrun]

I realized the same thing last night! I liked Keller when she was a background character, but they've moved her to the foreground and haven't done any extra work explaining who she is. She still feels like a background character, except now I'm supposed to care about her the same way I care about Team Sheppard, and I don't. I had the same problem with Carson and the way the show stepped up his involvement.

In contrast, SG-1 did a lot of work when they brought Jonas in to replace Daniel. Admittedly, I watched that on DVD, not live, but I loved Jonas and all the quirks they gave him. He really felt like part of the team. We knew the same kind of things about him that we knew about the rest of the team. Keller we know next to nothing about (nothing consistent at least). Even when Sheppard's background was a complete black hole, we still knew he liked Johnny Cash, surfboards, Batman, sparkly curtains, etc. When we saw Keller's room in "The Seed," all we saw was the light switch on the bedside table. Cadman's room got more set design and that was the first (and second to last) time we ever saw her. Though Keller is one up on Carson -- we never saw his room at all, until Rodney was packing it up after his death, and even then it mostly consisted of a framed promo shot from "Duet."

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Ditto, yes, *nods*, to all of this. I didn't really care for any Carson-centered episodes (and am getting downright irritated to see him now, was he this pathetically whiny before? I think the accent blinded me...) - and I wasn't a big fan of Elizabeth, either. But now Keller's getting more screentime than either of them ever did, and it's just...argh.

Oh, yes, the lack of Keller's hobbies - I've not mentioned this before but it is one of my major peeves. We know she's scared of the movie Alien, drinks beer, and her father is her only family (though we don't know why she left him to come to Atlantis.) Otherwise - one of the reasons I'm having such trouble with the McKeller is that I cannot imagine what they would talk about. And this is Rodney, talking is important! That in the beginning of "Tracker," all he can think of to say to her is medical jargon, and he's known her for over a year? - oh Rodney, you dork; but at the same time, I can't see how this relationship will work. (I had trouble seeing the McShep until it started becoming clear how big a geek John really was - to me, their Batman conversations go further toward proving how perfect they are for each other than quite a lot of the h/c...)

[runpunkrun]

Carson, while I could tolerate him before he died the first two or three times, now inspires a spitting rage in me whenever I spy him up and cloning around. I thought we were done with him! Elizabeth never actively annoyed me, though I found her to be a ridiculously crappy diplomat. I actually got MORE interested in her after they turned her into a replicator. She had conflicting interests! She was dangerous, but not! She must have hated what she was, but still tried to use her new powers to help Atlantis! I loved that. She had motivation and power for the first time in her Atlantis career.

Before "Tracker," I could see Rodney and Keller working as a couple, if only because he seemed more comfortable around her than he had Katie. And then "Tracker" rolls around and it's just Katie Brown all over again. Rodney's learned nothing. First he was babysitting ferns, and, while sweet, not a behavior he can sustain (see: "Quarantine"), and now he's memorizing medical jargon, and we've all heard him express his scorn for the medical profession. It's only a matter of time before he says that in Keller's presence.

The show goes out of its way to give us Rodney and John geeking out over Batman, playing Ancient Civilization together, secretly, for YEARS, and just generally being excellent pals. We don't get those kinds of moments between Rodney and his girlfriends. We get awkward moments. I'm not saying I want this to happen BECAUSE I DON'T but just a scene of Rodney and Keller eating lunch together in the mess and shyly holding hands would go a long way toward showing that they're actually interested in having a relationship. *shudders, tugs on OTP tin hat*

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

Gah! Just when I thought I'd written enough on this... ::shakes fist::

Why is Keller the head of medicine on Atlantis, and not another older, more experienced doctor?

Because none of the older, more experienced doctors stepped up, as was established in Jennifer's introductory episode. Jennifer did and that's what she continues to do. Just like John, but with less bloodshed.

Why does this need to be hammered home, is my question? How often did SGA go over and over the fact that John was there because Elizabeth manipulated him there? Or that Carson was there because he liked fiddling with genes? I don't recall that it was much beyond their character establishing first eps. Rodney is a genius, that's well established, but he doesn't remind us, every ep, that this is why, specifically, he's in Atlantis.

For me, Ford didn't work out because no one could get a handle on his character. There wasn't anything he brought to the table. John was a better fighter, as was Teyla, and there you were. What character (not Carson, because he ded) is better at medicine than Jennifer? A named character that the show can turn to with a medical question?

And I especially mind because I have a hard time not seeing it as sexist.

Oddly, the very reason I like Keller, was so excited to see her in her role (played by Staite, written as she is) is because it's breaking what I think is a common action/adventure sexist trope. We get boys all the time, who are fair to middling, thrown into adventures where they're over their heads and having to hang on by their fingernails. (That would be Rodney in this show.)

But girls are rarely allowed that role. They're either incredibly strong to begin with (Teyla, Sam -- and I love both of them, I do), or they're shunted off into a little protected place (Elizabeth -- a massive reason I've been frustrated with her character).

For the first time in StarGate, we have a girl filling the Rodney role. She came to Atlantis because she had a thinky skill (medicine) and all of a sudden she's being thrown into these action/adventures she's not prepared for.

I know you feel that Rodney is made "superhuman" because of his science, but in his establishing episode (Hide and Seek) it's not his science-genius that gets him a place at the table. It's him putting on the shield, walking into the energy creature, and throwing that box through the open stargate. Being a scientist brought him to the room, but being brave brought him to the table.

Jennifer had a similar experience in her establishing episode (Missing). Maybe not as tightly told as Rodney's establishing ep, but I'll take it. :) Being a doctor is what brought her to that planet (doing check ups on the Athosians), but it's when she crossed the rope bridge, ate the ground-squid, picked up a gun and shot the bad guy, that she showed herself worthy of a place at the table. (At least to me. And Teyla. *g*)

But yeah, the question, why Jennifer? I think it's very similar to the questions I've heard other fans asking, why Rodney? And my answer is the same, because they're us, and that's kind of cool.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Because none of the older, more experienced doctors stepped up, as was established in Jennifer's introductory episode.

But why not? Did they all have their own projects? Did they all quit because Carson died? Where were they? THAT is my problem. We know there are other doctors on Atlantis - Biro, the woman in "Sunday", the Indian-looking guy who keeps having to deal with Ronon, the entire team gathered with Carson in "Conversion." Where were they? That is my question.

If this were s1 Atlantis, I could believe that a junior doctor could be forced to "step up" due to personnel loss, and the IOA wouldn't be around to stop it. But s4 is when the IOA, thanks to the gate bridge, is most entrenched in Atlantis's politics...(this has given me the personal theory that Keller is an IOA plant. If not a Trust plant...)

And why did Keller come to Atlantis to begin with? This annoys me because in the recent ep "Whispers", they answered it for two throwaway characters we'll never see again - but they've never answered it for Keller. You can ascribe her reasons - she wanted the challenge, she was recruited, whatever - but none have ever implied in the show.

I know you feel that Rodney is made "superhuman" because of his science, but in his establishing episode (Hide and Seek) it's not his science-genius that gets him a place at the table. It's him putting on the shield, walking into the energy creature, and throwing that box through the open stargate. Being a scientist brought him to the room, but being brave brought him to the table.

It's what won him the hearts of some viewers; I don't think it's the only reason Rodney's on the show or on the team. His reasons for coming at all are given in "Rising" when it's clear he's got special skill with Ancient tech and ZPMs, and his reasons for being on the team are established in the next episode, "38 Minutes", where he consistently outthinks an entire room of Atlantis scientists, proving just how well & brilliantly he works under pressure. "Hide & Seek" proves that he's got some courage under the cowardice, but it's not his only or most defining moment.

Oddly, the very reason I like Keller, was so excited to see her in her role (played by Staite, written as she is) is because it's breaking what I think is a common action/adventure sexist trope. We get boys all the time, who are fair to middling, thrown into adventures where they're over their heads and having to hang on by their fingernails.

I understand this in principle. It would be really interesting to get a female Rodney character - a character with enormous ability but enormous flaws as well. I just don't see how we get that with Keller.

Even in "Missing," she had to be coddled by Teyla most of the way (albeit Teyla-style coddling). Her picking up the gun at the end did show initiative (though it was to help Teyla and to save her own life, and not risking it as Rodney's situation was). And considering Teyla was already inviting her to a special Athosian feast, just the two of them, without her teammates, I'd say she was pretty accepting of Keller already.

--Ack, I've got to go to work! I apologize for my brusqueness here, writing under time pressure ^^; Will try to sound less ruffled when I return...!

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

But why not? Did they all have their own projects?

Apparently. :) Since Elizabeth implied the IOA was going to have to send someone else in if a replacement was needed. (I've never been that clear on how much the IOA cared about Atlantis, beyond making sure the US military didn't have too strong a hold.)

And why did Keller come to Atlantis to begin with?

Jennifer constantly pushes herself, so I think an answer is implied, but yeah, she's never specifically said why exactly she came.

His reasons for coming at all are given in "Rising" when it's clear he's got special skill with Ancient tech and ZPMs...

Rodney in Rising isn't really Rodney, though. At that point he's written as, and Hewlett is playing him as, a different character. There's the science stuff, yes, but it's not character stuff. His character gets established in the next episode, where we see why John would choose Rodney for the away team. It's when Rodney showed himself and established his place in the series.

"Hide & Seek" proves that he's got some courage under the cowardice, but it's not his only or most defining moment.

I'd argue that it was the episode that defined his character; especially as this is the first we really see the "real" Dr. Rodney McKay. There was nothing in Rising to suggest Rodney could handle going off world. Hide and Seek established that when push came to shove, Rodney could handle the life and death stress of an adventurer. It's only because of what Rodney did in Hide and Seek that he was on the puddle jumper in 38 Minutes.

Hmm... actually, chatting about this... I'm wondering if we ask different questions about the characters? How we define for ourselves who they are and how they work? (I'm kind of thinking as I type, so this might not make any sense, fair warning! *g*) The stuff about Rodney's expertise with the science stuff (ZPM, etc.) left me cold. I mean, it didn't tell me anything more about his character than his uniform and props did. For me, it was his reactions to the personal shield (cool way to play), and his handling of the final danger (willing to cowboy up) that told me what made Rodney tick.

So now we have Jennifer. She shows up with a doctor's bag, that fact gets tucked into my "character bag". What I'm looking at is her behavior during the medical crisis that follows, in which she reacted with professionalism and authority. So Elizabeth's faith (and that of her staff) was well placed as far as I'm concerned. Next up, Missing.

Even in "Missing," she had to be coddled by Teyla most of the way...

But that's my point. She started off having to be coddled, scared, etc. But she stepped up. She crossed the bridge, though it terrified her. And she refused to let Teyla compromise her ethics for Jennifer's sake. And she shot the bad guy.

Her picking up the gun at the end did show initiative (though it was to help Teyla and to save her own life, and not risking it as Rodney's situation was).

Well, I said Jennifer was like Rodney, not his clone. ;) But Jennifer did risk her life in saving the bad guy in the first place (that's where she told Teyla not to compromise her ethics for Jennifer's sake). Which is why he thought she'd be unwilling to shoot him. And why I see this as a character defining episode and a character defining scene. Jennifer is willing to risk herself to help others, but she's also willing to stand up to aggressors to protect others. She's compassionate but not weak.

And considering Teyla was already inviting her to a special Athosian feast, just the two of them, without her teammates, I'd say she was pretty accepting of Keller already.

Jennifer replaced Carson. Which means she replaced Carson's role as personal doctor to the Athosians. This was Teyla introducing the new doctor to her people. It wasn't Teyla inviting her new gal-pal to a night of picking up guys and painting toe nails. (Teyla wasn't actually planning to hang around with Jennifer considering her dressing up for Kanaan. Probably the reason Teyla didn't invite her teammates. *g*)

[lysambre.livejournal.com]

What character (not Carson, because he ded) is better at medicine than Jennifer? A named character that the show can turn to with a medical question?

Marie. Here, you have a name. Marie, who was there way before Keller, who assisted Carson as well a Jennifer could have done, who was obviously talented. But alas for her, she was also over 30.
You keep saying "Because none of the older, more experienced doctors stepped up, as was established in Jennifer's introductory episode.", how do *you* know Marie was asked and refused the position ?
I'm talking about Marie here, but any other doctor could have done the same. What about that doctor in Sunday ? The one that takes over for Carson when he's off ? Apparently she was happy to be here and talented enough that he trusted her to put her in charge, but just like poor Marie, she was also over 30 ! What about Biro ? (once again over 30 ? Too old for the demographics ?)

Our problem is that the writers left everything to be *implied* or *assumed* or *whatever, we can't be bothered, use your own imagination*.

If they had proven to me even once, that not *any* doctor could have done what Keller has done so far, then I probably would like the character a bit more, but they haven't proved anything. Any doctor on Earth and on Atlantis is able to do what she does.

On Earth, the doctors with positions of power are not "simple normal doctors", they are "extremely talented and driven doctors". I have friends working for doctors without borders (which is basically Atlantis) and believe me, the selection process is definitely not "okay, you're a fine doctor, that's good enough for us, we'll give you a chance to prove yourself later", oh no no no, the doctors and nurses working for them have to have at least 10 years experience (after their internships), they have to have at least one if not multiple specialities, they need to have interests outside their fields, they need to be able to never ever give up, especially under pressure, they need to be smart and fast enough that they can improvise with whatever is at hand (especially in combat or dangerous situations), they need to physically be able to handle themselves, they need to be the best of the best of the best. And even then, they might not get selected ! And we're only talking Earth here, not even another galaxy. Somehow I would imagine the screening for getting send to another galaxy would be even harder, and the screening to become CMO would be among very very few. If Keller is just "like us" or a "normal talented doctor", then I'm sorry, but it's just not enough. It's not believable. One of my friend is right now in Armenia, treating patient with a form multi-resistant tuberculosis, she's been head of her department for 10 years before they even accepted her demands, and it then took 3 years for her to get through all the screenings, what's Keller's history ? See if the writers were to give us something on her to make us think she's that good, then maybe there would be a lot less discussion in the form of "Why her ? Why is she here ?"

Thing is, if someone like Keller were to work in a normal hospital on Earth ? She would never be in a position of power, and she probably would get her ass kicked until she gets another look on life, doctors can't be meek, nor uncertain, nor hesitant, nor scared (as said before, how did she even made it out of medical school ?). It's one thing to be smart, it's another thing to have confidence in the fact that what you do is the absolute best (if anything the writers show her in doubt more often than not, and for someone in her position it's not acceptable).

I do get that you like the Keller character, it's fine with me, to each their own, but just *saying* that she's the best is not *showing* that she's the best ;).

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Please forgive an excessively long and somewhat indirect response - you sparked an epiphany in me, and because I swore I wasn't going to post another essay, I'm going to go into it here.

(And really, thank you for your patience in all these discussions - I've been a character-defender before - Friendshipper & I had a few long conversations about Rose in Doctor Who - and I know it can get frustrating when the other person refuses to see the light, but I actually think I'm getting something out of these arguments, however circular they might seem...I'm working closer to the heart of the matter, every time we go around! And you've been unfailingly polite through all of it, I really appreciate it!)

And now I will show my appreciation by drowning you in words. Um. Sorry! (To save your inbox - and your sanity - I'm posting the following comments as replies to this comment, so if you want to read them, just check out this post. And if you don't want to read them - homg I do not blame you if you are exhausted of this, I just need to get these thoughts on screen and out of my head!)

[unaccompanied-g.livejournal.com]

I sort of love you, like, a lot for posting this. You pinned down exactly why I am not a fan of Keller, and you were more eloquent than I could ever be while doing it. :D

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Heh, thanks...in all honesty there's a lot of reasons I'm not a fan of Keller, and I'm not sure if this essay really is the initial reason, or a justification after the fact...but yes, would like to have it answered!

[darkgloom.livejournal.com]

Uh, hi. I've sort of been reading your excellent meta posts on SGA (new SGA fan, though my timing could've have been better *winces*) and while I've been tempted to sort of add my (mostly incoherent) two cents, I managed to resist. Except for the Keller meta, apparently. ;)

The interesting thing is that I've read about your points regarding Keller as a character and what doesn't work for you and I agreed with it—it made me think and nod even when I thought Keller was okay in a neutral sort of way. I didn't dislike her, but I didn't love her either. I liked her in a casual sense, I guess, in that she fulfilled her role and interacted with my favourites well and that was about it. However, once I started reading gnine's essay/post and the comments there (and here), to my discomfit I found myself liking Rodney (and by extension, some of the team, particularly John) less and Keller more, which is... incredibly confusing considering how much I love Rodney, John, etc.

I thought about it some more and I think it's because of the way I view SGA. I'm in love with the show, but I'm not in it for the brilliant writing, nor do I expect brilliant writing, but I love it anyway, inconsistencies, plotholes and all. ;) So I give the show (and by extension the characters) a lot passes. And I guess when I read all the comments and etc, it seemed a lot like because so and so (Rodney, John, etc) were the favourites (as they are mine), they get much more leeway than say, Keller, who seemed like she has never done anything to warrant the amount of questioning and dislike that seems so common. I don't know, I had no problems with your questions regarding Keller's experience and why she's even in Atlantis. I'm kind of wondering about that too... but neither do I think she's really that inexperienced in the first place. She displays fear and insecurity but she's calm and efficient in a medical crisis. She had personal/professional doubts about herself, but I don't think she's ever been anything but confident and compassionate with her patients so for me, it wasn't really an issue.

I don't see the reason why her experience has to be questioned when none of the others have, which I guess is discomfiting. It makes me feel more sympathetic to Keller, and to me, it kind of makes her seem like the underdog. I know she looks young, but seeing as the show didn't provide an age, I usually let it pass.

It was also surprising at how many of her accomplishments were so easily dismissed while Rodney's were highlighted as being so much greater. I love Rodney like whoa and I get a high out of all the geeky genius stuff but. It feels uncomfortable when one person's accomplishments are somehow... dismissed when comparing to another one.

And I think I'll end it there. I've rambled too much already. :)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

to my discomfit I found myself liking Rodney (and by extension, some of the team, particularly John) less and Keller more, which is... incredibly confusing considering how much I love Rodney, John, etc.

That's actually exactly what friendshipper said...we stopped arguing the issue for that reason.

For me the issue isn't actually that Keller's done less, but that the writers haven't highlighted what she's done as much. It's easier to point out what Rodney's done because the writers make a bigger deal of it. Which annoys me because I think there's some sexism in the writing going on there.

--Actually for me, the real issue is that I don't like Keller for a variety of reasons (number one, she bores me; number two, the damn romance stuff), and so I'm picking on all the flaws in her writing (which I insist are there, and maybe to a greater degree than some of the other chars, but whatever!) I'm stopping doing that for now because I've had too much of it lately...might get back to it later, but for now I'd rather just squee about the show than complain about it.

Err, sorry to not meta back as extensively, I just burned myself out! ^^;