On Keller

[xparrot]

So people can join the discussion - gnine posted a long essay on our problems with Keller's character. Feel free to jump in and agree or disagree as you will!

gnine and I have discussed this at length, and she's covered most of our main points, referencing specific episodes. We're not trying to change anyone's minds about the character; really, we're more trying to offer explanations for people who don't like her but can't figure out why. Reading over the essay and comments, I think the biggest question for me comes down to Why Keller?

Why is Keller the head of medicine on Atlantis, and not another older, more experienced doctor? Why is she sitting with the team in "Doppelganger" when we've never seen anyone else sit with them, not Elizabeth or Carson or Heightmeyer or Lorne? Why is Ronon interested in her after nine years of celibacy, out of all the other women on Atlantis and elsewhere in Pegasus? Why does Rodney say "I love you" to her when we never heard him say it to Katie Brown or Sam or anyone else?

Why are we watching this character, and not some other character?

It's not that I dislike Keller. I just don't understand why we're expected to care about her in particular when the show's barely made an effort to distinguish her from anyone else.

Why is she head of medicine, and not anyone else? Most of the characters on the show are defined by their roles first and foremost, so Keller should be as well. It's not that she's a bad doctor - she's quite competent. But we've never seen any hint that she's better than any other doctor on Atlantis or in the SGC. There's no reason it's her and not someone else; there's no reason why she couldn't be replaced by the IOA tomorrow. Carson dies and leaves behind a huge body of research for people have to follow up on, and none of them seem as good at it as him. Elizabeth dies and they need to bring in Samantha Carter, smartest women in two galaxies, to replace her. (I should also note here that I saw similar problems with Elizabeth as I do with Keller...and I never liked Elizabeth much, either.) What legacy would Keller leave; what does she do, what does she bring to Atlantis (the city or the show) that no one else could?

Why is Rodney head of science & research on Atlantis, and not anyone else?

Because he's the smartest man in two galaxies. We've been told this. A lot. We've also seen him outthink other scientists on multiple occasions. Plus he had years of experience with the SGC.

Why is Sheppard the head of the military and teamleader, and not anyone else?

Because the SGC actively recruited him thanks to his super-gene, and then he shot his commanding officer and was the next highest rank, and being stranded in another galaxy no one could replace him. Then Elizabeth fought to keep him in place once they got back in contact with Earth, because she knew and trusted working with him.

Why is Elizabeth the first head of the expedition, and not anyone else?

Because she was in a position of power in the SGC (thanks to political maneuvering in SG-1) and got control of the project. Also she has unique international diplomacy skills that make her well-suited to heading a multi-national expedition. But mostly it's because she was maneuvered into position; like John, it's as much a matter of circumstance as individual skills.

Why is Sam Carter the second head, and not anyone else?

Because she's the smartest woman in two galaxies, and thanks to ten years on SG-1, has the hero clout to get any position she wants. And she wanted the challenge of Atlantis.

Why is Woolsey the third head, and not anyone else?

Because he's the IOA's established pawn, and they want control.

Why is Carson Beckett the first head of Atlantis medicine, and not anyone else?

Because he's a skilled surgeon and a geneticist, and he has a powerful manifestation of the ATA gene. Carson's gene means that he could have beat many people otherwise more qualified for the original position.

Why is Teyla on the main team, and not anyone else?

Because as the leader of the first people they contacted, she had significant diplomatic influence, and she has more experience with the rest of Pegasus than the other Athosians. Again, Teyla's position is as much a matter of circumstance as skill; she had no competition.

Why is Ronon on the main team, and not anyone else?

Because he can take down Wraith with his bare hands, and John, realizing this, begged and pleaded and whined to Elizabeth until she let him have Ronon on the team.

Why was Ford on the main team, and not anyone else?

We don't know. See also: why Ford never starred in a single episode, why Ford was dropped after first season, and why most of us never liked Ford anywhere near as much as the rest of the cast. We never understood why we were supposed to care about Ford, when it seemed like nearly anyone could do what he did. And for the most part, we didn't care.

Why is Zelenka Rodney's second? Why is Lorne John's second? Why are Chuck and Amelia gate technicians? Why was Heightmeyer the base psychologist?

We don't know - we can guess (Radek is plenty smart; Lorne has the gene and previous experience in SG-1) - but we've never been told. We don't know - and we don't have to care. We've become fond of them over time, depending on how amused we are by their quirks, but they're not developed characters, and the audience is not required to care about a single one of them. There's never been an episode that the major plot depended on caring whether any of them lived or died. If any of them did die, they could easily be replaced without fanfare. They're friends with the main characters, but not best friends; they're not key romantic interests. They're only in episodes erratically; if they were never in another episode again, we'd wonder where they went, but it wouldn't be that surprising, and the show wouldn't need to explain their fate.

Kanaan and Katie Brown are romantic interests, but the audience is again, not intended to bond with them the same as with the major characters. They only relate to a single main character (we only briefly saw Kanaan with anyone but Teyla; we never saw Katie talk to anyone but Rodney) - their purpose is to develop the main character they're involved with, not to be characters in their own right. We are expected to care about what happens to them only insofar as it directly impacts our main characters - we never heard about Katie Brown until she got involved with Rodney, and we'll never hear about her again, now that she's out of Rodney's life. Even Jeannie, much as I love her, doesn't have any place on Atlantis except in direct relation to Rodney; she's not used otherwise.

There are single-episode characters we are on occasion intended to bond with in their own right, that the episodes hinge on us caring about them in addition to the leads. Kiryk the Runner in "Tracker" is one such - these characters are hit-or-miss anyway, and still, steps are often taken to establish why we should be caring about this person. Kiryk is special from the beginning because he's a Runner; we know right there that he must be unusually skilled. We are intended to care about him in part because he's there to give us insight on Ronon, information on Runners. Also, if we don't care about him, he's not there next week; we only need to care once. It's a decent risk for a show to take.

If Keller were a secondary character, I would not have a problem with her. With Janet Frasier on SG-1, it was never specified how she got her position - but the show never required us to care about Janet as much as the main characters (or maybe it did? It's been years since I've watched SG-1. If there were Janet-focused episodes, I've quite forgotten them...) She was never as important to the main characters as they were to each other; we didn't see them risking their lives specifically to save her. Nor did we have episodes that the plot depended on whether she survived (save her last episode.) In fact, in several episodes Janet is an antagonistic character; we're meant to side with the main characters against her. And she wasn't romantically involved with two of the main cast.

I wouldn't mind if Keller got an episode once in a while; I wouldn't even mind if she had a minor background affair with one of the main characters. I mind that she's had three episodes center around her this season thus far while Teyla and Ronon and Rodney have each had one-and-a-half, and John's had none. I mind that both Ronon and Rodney are showing so much interest in her - more than any other woman before, in Ronon's case. I mind because Keller's not just a random blueshirt extra; she's Atlantis's head of medicine, and she's in the opening credits, and I don't understand why she deserves this much attention.

And I especially mind because I have a hard time not seeing it as sexist. I can't help but see it as the writers believing that Jewel Staite is answer enough. I seriously doubt the writers would've added, say, Jared Padalecki to the cast, replacing Carson as the new head doctor Gene Keller, given him no specific defined skills, had both Sam and Teyla fall in love with him, and never once explained why he came to Atlantis to begin with. But with Keller, she's a cute girl, so what other reason does she need to be there?

ETA: Much more here - I had an epiphany about why these questions matter to me, and in lieu of posting another essay, I put my latest rant in the comments.

I also want to thank the exceptionally patient horridporrid, who is a Keller fan. If you also like the character, I definitely recommend that you check out her essays and episode reviews - I disagree on most points concerning Keller, but they're a well-written, considered, positive take on the char.

Comments

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

And honestly, everything else aside, I think this is the real answer. This is not meant as a knock against Jewel Staite, Keller's character, or even the writers. This is the way Hollywood works. This is the way it would work even if she were the quirkiest, most well-defined character in the history of television.

This is true. Frustrating, but true. Sigh!

Still, I think they could've handled it/her better. Jewel's a great actor, she deserves a good part! The writers are incredibly lazy with her - they're relying on us to make her a likable character. They're relying on us to smooth over the discrepancies in her character and fill in the gaps in her motivations - they're counting on us to provide that fanon background that you mentioned (because yes, as far as I can tell, most of the Keller fans have a story for her that's largely unsupported by the canon, but hasn't been specifically denied, either, so they can maintain it.)

...Which is where I feel a bit hypocritical, because if I liked the character I'd be tempted to just play along, help make up fanon. I can think of motivations to ascribe to her, we just haven't been given any. But the whole McKeller thing, and the triangle thing, and the getting-more-Keller-instead-of-more-Team, makes me cranky enough that I don't want to play along. Phooey! XP

Honestly, as much as I love Brad Wright as a writer, I'm not sure he took into account, because of the situation and issues the episode deals with, how utterly unromantic and wrong that final scene can be read as.

Actually, read unromantically, I kind of find the last scene fascinating - seriously, in Jennifer's place, I'd be wigged out more than touched, by a guy I've casually dated telling me he loves me when he's brain damaged. (you might also want to check out this essay on it, because it basically proves that whatever Wright intended, what he actually wrote is the McSheppiest scene in the whole show...)

I count "The Shrine" as a Keller episode - it's primarily a Rodney episode, but Keller is definitely the second major character; she's in most of the scenes, and the episode begins and ends with her. I think she's probably got more screentime in "The Shrine" than in "The Seed", even though the other characters spend more time talking about her in "The Seed."

[greyias.livejournal.com]

But the whole McKeller thing, and the triangle thing, and the getting-more-Keller-instead-of-more-Team, makes me cranky enough that I don't want to play along. Phooey! XP

Haha... I'd probably be much closer to this mindset if this weren't the last season and I hadn't become so deeply entrenched in my mindset of "I will have something to squee about every episode this season" except "Whispers"... I seriously need to show you the one bit of video I did manage to put together. I am... slightly disgruntled about the screen time she's getting this year, but probably just because it's the last year. I'd like to think, though, that if the writers had known that this season was going to be it, this would be a non-issue.

Sadly, this is not the case. *sigh* Maybe I'll just shake my fist at Joe Mallozzi and his stupid "season of romance". Way to harsh on my squee, buddy.

Actually, read unromantically, I kind of find the last scene fascinating - seriously, in Jennifer's place, I'd be wigged out more than touched, by a guy I've casually dated telling me he loves me when he's brain damaged.

YES. It took me five times before I finally figured out, that was what was bugging me. Honest-to-god, I cannot get on board the idea that any woman, much less Keller, could find that flattering. Especially, when you take in the context of the fact that she had no clue that Rodney was even interested in her romantically until the fruitcup thing -- which was what? Six days before hand?

And that when you take into account the fact that she was probably waiting on him almost hand-and-foot, and was showing a great amount of concern -- I can see how someone who is mentally degenerating can mistake gratitude for love, or gratitude + burgeoning crush for love. And then he doesn't have the presence of mind to say it to her off of the official medical record, so you know, anyone who has a look at it can see that and call her questions into action. If I were in either her or Rodney's position, I would be mortified. (Especially Rodney, after the fact.)

Of course, he's also her friend, and he tells her this -- yet he very clearly doesn't take comfort in her presence ten days later. Yet he loves her? I can see why she'd be watching that over and over again, because the actions do not match up with the words.

And, if they addressed all of this somehow, I would actually be happy with that scene. I would be estatic if they put that much thought into it. Right now though, it's still in wait-and-see mode -- but if they go the route that the scene seemed to suggest on initial viewing, that Keller somehow found that touching, I'll probably wind up crossing over into the anti-Keller camp, because... just not cool.

(you might also want to check out this essay on it, because it basically proves that whatever Wright intended, what he actually wrote is the McSheppiest scene in the whole show...)

I've kind of been avoiding reading those kind of essays. It's not the content of the essays that trip me up, because they're usually very well-thought out. Inevitably, I'll wind up reading the comments section, which is where I'll wind up getting irritated and disgruntled. I find it kind of strange, because I'm definitely OTF on John and Rodney, with the occasional dipping of the toes into the OTP arena.

(This is why I confuse myself so often.)

I count "The Shrine" as a Keller episode - it's primarily a Rodney episode, but Keller is definitely the second major character

Ah, that makes sense. I generally see this more as John's episode than hers, although perhaps that's because in a tiny way, she's almost the episode's antagonist -- as she's causing the friction and resistance against the primary characters: the team. (And I always side with the team, sorry Keller.)

Of course, I think "The Seed" is much more of a Woolsey episode than a Keller episode. Which reminds me... they have not fed my Woolsey crush in the past few episodes. This begs the question... Why not Woolsey?

Because he doesn't look as cute in leather... oh, ow, I just blinded myself with that mental image.

[gnine.livejournal.com]

although perhaps that's because in a tiny way, she's almost the episode's antagonist -- as she's causing the friction and resistance against the primary characters: the team. (And I always side with the team, sorry Keller.)

That's one of the things that gets me about it. I kinda wish they did make her a bit more an antagonist. I wish there was more of a heart-felt argument. And what kinda gets me is, as the writers, I don't think we're necessarily suppose to side with the team (though I do). They have Rodney siding with Keller, arguing her exact point about the torture. Which just makes me wanna cry, because...Rodney, against the team? *whimper*

Breaking my OTP up is one thing, but breaking up the team? See, that's something I'll never, EVER forgive! -_-

Also, yes...why NOT Woolsey! ^_- I agree, where has he been the past few weeks?

Because he doesn't look as cute in leather. ...BRAIN BREAKAGE!

[greyias.livejournal.com]

they have Rodney siding with Keller, arguing her exact point about the torture. Which just makes me wanna cry, because...Rodney, against the team? *whimper*

Never!

Maybe they wanted to suggest that by having him use the same phrase... but I just don't buy it. Not even the first time around. That statement seemed to me to be 100% Rodney, lashing out. Heck, Rodney lashes out because of coffee shortages. Of course he's going to lash out that he's not better. And he's going to sound as angry and melodramatic about it as possible. He's Rodney. If he were really that upset, that offended, or betrayed by their actions he wouldn't have apologized the way he did a few seconds later.

Because if the situation were reversed, for any of them, he would have done exactly as they had. Without any hesitation.

(Besides, they brought ham -- anything can be forgiven in light of ham.)

BRAIN BREAKAGE!

BWAHAHA!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes! Thank you! This is exactly how I saw it - because yes, Rodney would have done it for them, and he's come far enough along when it comes to understanding friendships that he would get this.

I also think that if Ronon had thought to ask Rodney what he wanted when Rodney was still compos mentis enough to give an answer, that Rodney would've wanted to go - not right away, but at the last minute, hell yeah, what did he have to lose? I can't believe that Rodney would reject a chance to get his brain back, even temporarily...

[tringasolitaria.livejournal.com]

No, I'm sorry, no - I can't agree with this. My apologies - I've been staying in the sidelines on this argument, although watching it with interest on both you and gnine's journals. There's a lot I agree with on both sides of the discussion. I may regret jumping in here like this, and I hope you'll forgive me, but I've got to say - my perspective on it is completely different.

Honestly, the whole Shrine concept disturbed me HUGELY. And I'm not in the least surprised that Rodney reacted like he did - I personally would have reacted in exactly the same way. In my mind what they tried to do to him was nothing more or less than euthanasia without consent, and frankly I think he had every right to be furious with all of them. IMO they had absolutely no right to do what they did (and they never even apologized), and while I understood it coming from Ronon with his deeply ingrained "die with honor" mentality, and maybe even from Teyla who comes from a similar culture, I was very disturbed that only Keller voiced any protest to the idea. Why no argument from John, or even Woolsey? The episode got so hung up on the whole issue of whether the Shrine was real or not, and ignored the huge glaring issues of consent and whether the team had the right to make decisions for Rodney about how and when he would die. And I don't think they did! The way I see it is, if Keller hadn't figured out the reason for the Shrine working (and frankly yes, all of them should have clued in a little earlier), Rodney's beloved team would have been responsible for putting him to death. And personally, I wish they'd dealt with that a little more, because I think Rodney has every right to be holding onto some resentment about that.

Sorry - it's just that this whole aspect of the episode was really really disturbing to me. Even Jeannie seemed to blame Keller for not letting them take him, which makes absolutely no rational sense to me, because if Keller hadn't protested and the Shrine had worked like they thought it did, Rodney would have been dead when Jeannie arrived (because for some reason they all seemed to forget that she was on her way in their rush to give him the "gift of...a quick death" - Teyla's words). Jeannie should have thanked Keller for at least stopping them until she got there, if for nothing else.

I understand that there are problems with Keller, and I agree with a lot of the points that you and gnine have made. But I did have to put in my two cents worth on this one point - I hope I haven't offended you though. :(

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

(You're always forgiving for jumping in, don't worry! As long as it's polite, I'm never offended by disagreement. I will argue, but that's because I love a good debate - I'm not in the least upset, I'm glad to hear your opinion!)

I've seen this discussion before. And this is what it comes down to:

And I'm not in the least surprised that Rodney reacted like he did - I personally would have reacted in exactly the same way.

Everyone has a personal take on this. I personally would have wanted to go to the shrine for my last day. I would have found it a gift, I would have wanted my family to give me that chance. Other people feel differently, and there's just no way to argue it one way or another; this is a deeply personal choice. Those who wouldn't want it take Rodney's original reaction of anger at face value; those who would want it take his later apology to Jeannie as his true feelings. I don't think there is a correct interpretation. (I do wonder why the heck Ronon didn't mention the shrine sooner, so they could just ask Rodney what his wishes were while he was capable of deciding. It's to provide dramatic tension, but it doesn't make much sense. They wouldn't have had to go immediately - Rodney could have asked that they take him once he'd passed a certain point. Or else demanded that they don't take him. But Ronon doesn't bring it up until Rodney's too far gone to make a choice. Odd.)

if Keller hadn't protested and the Shrine had worked like they thought it did, Rodney would have been dead when Jeannie arrived (because for some reason they all seemed to forget that she was on her way in their rush to give him the "gift of...a quick death" - Teyla's words).

Huh - when they were arguing with Woolsey, I didn't think they were planning on taking Rodney to the shrine that very minute - I assumed they were still going to wait as long as possible. By the time Jeannie comes, she says Rodney has two days left at most, so I was assuming they wanted to go the shrine while they knew Rodney was still going to be alive, as opposed to waiting a day, when he might die and they'd lose their last chance. It was getting down to the wire and they needed to make a decision.

I also think that Ronon & Teyla were resigned to Rodney dying - they're from Pegasus, they know Second Childhood, and a quick, dignified death is just what they want for themselves, so they were trying to honor Rodney the best they could.

I don't think John ever accepted the "quick death" part. John didn't accept that Rodney was dying when he was lying on his deathbed in "Tao" - John's not good with acceptance! I am convinced that John was thinking one day with Rodney as himself was one day that Rodney could help them figure out how to save himself, and was not thinking beyond that...which is how it worked out, in the end.

[tringasolitaria.livejournal.com]

Thanks for not being offended! :)

I do agree that it's a personal choice, and very subject to personal interpretation. However, I do think we know enough about Rodney to know how he would react, and I thought it was completely in character. Over and over again we've seen that Rodney McKay does not handle imminent death well. At all. Yeah, he gathers himself together and does the brave thing (usually), but he's intensely unhappy about it. I think Rodney, as opposed to Ronon who wants to face death headlong, would prefer not to see it coming. And so I just can't imagine him reacting to this any other way. Of course, yes, that is colored by my own personal perspective. I don't know myself if I would turn this down if given the choice. But I don't know that I would be too happy about it being done to me. If that makes any sense.

I do wonder why the heck Ronon didn't mention the shrine sooner, so they could just ask Rodney what his wishes were while he was capable of deciding. It's to provide dramatic tension, but it doesn't make much sense. They wouldn't have had to go immediately - Rodney could have asked that they take him once he'd passed a certain point. Or else demanded that they don't take him. But Ronon doesn't bring it up until Rodney's too far gone to make a choice. Odd.

Oh absolutely. It's a storytelling problem, but if we're going to stay with an in-show perspective, just why did Ronon wait so long? It does make one wonder. And that's probably a path I shouldn't go down, because it makes me like Ronon less, so I'll stop there.

Huh - when they were arguing with Woolsey, I didn't think they were planning on taking Rodney to the shrine that very minute - I assumed they were still going to wait as long as possible.

That's a possibility I suppose, but from the way Ronon and Teyla started to charge out of Woolsey's office, I assumed they were planning to go right then. John's the one who slowed them down and reminded them that they needed to plan it out a little before charging into a Wraith stronghold, and then Keller said that they weren't going anywhere without talking to Rodney. It all seemed like an immediate thing to me. *shrugs*

I also think that Ronon & Teyla were resigned to Rodney dying - they're from Pegasus, they know Second Childhood, and a quick, dignified death is just what they want for themselves, so they were trying to honor Rodney the best they could.

Oh yes, I completely agree with that. But they were thinking about what they would want for themselves and not what Rodney would want, and John, who of all of them should have IMO been thinking about what Rodney wanted, just gets swept along with them - his objection is not "Rodney wouldn't want this" - it's "we need a plan if we're going to do this". I love John, and John and Rodney, but I have a hard time with him for not standing up to Ronon and Teyla over this. Of all of them, Rodney trusted John the most during the episode. John told Rodney he wasn't giving up on him - I don't understand why he let Ronon and Teyla sway him. :( I'm having a hard time not seeing it as a betrayal on John's part, in a way.

I don't think John ever accepted the "quick death" part. John didn't accept that Rodney was dying when he was lying on his deathbed in "Tao" - John's not good with acceptance! I am convinced that John was thinking one day with Rodney as himself was one day that Rodney could help them figure out how to save himself, and was not thinking beyond that...which is how it worked out, in the end.

See, I would love to believe that, I really would, because I loved the closeness between John and Rodney during the episode, and I don't want it to be soured by this. But John's behavior in the cave doesn't bear that out, IMO. Not until Keller figures out what's going on does John get motivated to save him. Until then, he's trying to coax Rodney into sitting down and relaxing and enjoying his last meal, not pushing him into figuring out the problem.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Most of this I can't disagree with, because it's all a matter of interpretation - I see it one way, you another, and there isn't enough in the episode to prove either side. (I especially wasn't clear when the conversation with Woolsey was taking place; the first time I watched the ep I actually thought it was when Jeannie was there, and didn't realize until later that it was another flashback. Judging by how far gone Rodney is, it can't be more than a couple days before Jeannie gets there - and we don't know exactly how fast Rodney was deteriorating, but they specifically say in the beginning that they weren't sure Jeannie would get there in time. So wanting to rush Rodney to the shrine makes sense, because it's the last minute no matter what.)

But, yes - completely valid viewpoints either way; the episode doesn't make it clear.

The one point I must argue is this:

See, I would love to believe that, I really would, because I loved the closeness between John and Rodney during the episode, and I don't want it to be soured by this. But John's behavior in the cave doesn't bear that out, IMO. Not until Keller figures out what's going on does John get motivated to save him. Until then, he's trying to coax Rodney into sitting down and relaxing and enjoying his last meal, not pushing him into figuring out the problem.

I saw John as motivated from the start. When they walk into the cave, Keller notices the radiation, and John's first thought is "Maybe we can ask Rodney in a minute" - he's counting on getting Rodney's brain back in the action. Once he's back, Rodney asks why John wants to say goodbye now and John doesn't answer. Ronon & Teyla talk about dying with honor and dignity; John doesn't chime in, except to agree that he thought this was a good idea (and I think he means the getting Rodney back; he is not thinking about the "dying" part at all.) Ronon tells him to stop worrying about the energy readings and eat, but John is letting Rodney do his thing - as he does, when he knows Rodney is sufficiently motivated with a problem. And as soon as Keller realizes what's happening to the parasite, John's first question is, "What does it mean for us?" and he jumps on the chance to save Rodney.

It's very like John's behavior in "Tao" - for most of the episode he's pretty laid back, not pushing Rodney on the ascension meditation until they get down to the wire. I don't see it as John not caring, but that John is really, really good at denial.

[tringasolitaria.livejournal.com]

But why wouldn't he answer, if he really thought Rodney could figure it out? If that was his reason for agreeing to the whole thing? Why wouldn't he say, here Rodney, here's your chance, tell us how to fix this? Why doesn't he defend himself when Rodney tears into him about not wanting to say goodbye on the pier? Instead the only thing he says is in defense of Ronon. "We all thought it was a good idea." Not - I thought if we brought you here you could figure something out. John's never ever been shy or subtle about pushing Rodney for answers when their lives were on the line - why would he start now? Leaving him alone to play around and maybe stumble across an answer is SO not their MO. Based on what we've seen in the past, if John had a clue that Rodney could figure out an answer, he would have been in his face the instant Rodney started yelling, telling him to cut it out and focus, not standing on the sidelines looking shamefaced.

I'm sorry - I really wish I could see it the way you do, but I can't. I do appreciate the discussion though! :)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

The same reason John didn't push Rodney that much in "Tao" - because if he yells at Rodney to fix it, then he's acknowledging that Rodney is going to die. If he just relaxes and pretends it's a regular day and they're just out on a picnic, then he doesn't have to think about Rodney dying. And something will come up to save Rodney in the meantime, because something always does, because Rodney is not going to die.

...Umm, I know this sounds utterly contradictory, but this is how I think John's head works. It's a scary, strange place, inside the mind of a Sheppard! (I'm tempted to try to fic this scene from John's POV, maybe see if it would make more sense from the internal perspective?)

But we've never once seen John just accept a teammate's death before, under any circumstances; I cannot imagine that he would've started now.

[tringasolitaria.livejournal.com]

Umm. Well, I'm glad it makes sense to you! :) (and I'm not being sarcastic - I really am glad) I just don't see it.

And yeah, it doesn't make sense that John would accept a teammate's death. A lot of things about this episode don't make sense to me, frankly. As you can probably tell, I have a real love/hate relationship with this episode. I can't remember the last time an episode simultaneously made me so squeeful and so angry at the same time. :)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

except "Whispers"... I seriously need to show you the one bit of video I did manage to put together.

Yes, yes you do! XP

I'm actually having *more* trouble with Keller since it's the last season - if we had another season coming, I'd just shrug a lot of this off and hope for better next time, but there's not going to be a next time, and it makes me very "grrrr" that every minute of Keller now is a minute we could be having Team instead...

It took me five times before I finally figured out, that was what was bugging me. Honest-to-god, I cannot get on board the idea that any woman, much less Keller, could find that flattering. Especially, when you take in the context of the fact that she had no clue that Rodney was even interested in her romantically until the fruitcup thing -- which was what? Six days before hand?

Yeah, I realized this almost right away...I've always felt really weird about big romantic gestures such as guys always do in romantic comedies, too; that's putting a lot of pressure on a relationship. But when the guy is brain-damaged...it's creepy.

At least the episode didn't actually make it clear what Keller was thinking. Because I'd probably rewatch the vid too, trying to figure out how the hell I felt about it. Unfortunately I have a feeling the writers probably thought it was romantic...

I generally see this more as John's episode than hers, although perhaps that's because in a tiny way, she's almost the episode's antagonist

See, and that's just another thing that annoys me - in SG-1, Frasier at times was an antagonist (such as when Daniel went crazy and was committed in, um, "Legacy" I think the ep is). The team argued with her angrily. It gets to me that in "The Shrine," they argue, but no one gets angry at Keller. (except maybe Jeannie - go Jeannie!) Keller's saying, "It's my fault" and John breaks out of his grief long enough to tell her that it isn't. Even though it kinda is. Because, yeah, noticeable personality change in a guy who was mysteriously unconscious for nine hours, you probably do want to look into that...

I hope we get more Woolsey soon! I kinda loved him in SG-1 anyway, but I'm surprised by how much I'm enjoying him on Atlantis...