shipping kills puppies!

[xparrot]

I've seen a couple discussions about the negative turn SGA fandom has taken, re: McKeller, people, mostly Keller fans (or at least not anti-Keller fans) who are feeling actively driven from the fandom by aggressive character/pairing hate. They feel this is a recent trend, and I concur; while SGA had its share of past wank, I think it was one of the lower-conflict fandoms for its size. And if that's changed now, then I blame shipping. Or rather, canon shipping.

Every fandom I know of that has these battles, has these levels of anger and resentment between fans, is a fandom with canon ships. Witness Smallville, or HP. Ships going canon wreak havoc on a fandom. Nothing embitters your average fan as much as a ship that sinks their own, and an embittered fan can be eager to share their hate, wants the solidarity of all of fandom telling TPTB that they're wrong, wants all of fandom together seeking change. Even killing a character doesn't cause the kind of conflict that shipping does...

There are other things that get fans' backs up, but the majority of fen are shippers, and ships are often why they fan. There are exceptions, there are other types of fans - and other types of shippers - but in modern Western media fandom, the majority of fans (slash, het, even many gen fen) are in it for particular relationships. Mess with those relationships in canon, and you get fandom meltdown.

(I think there's a reason that a lot of the old fan shows, the big ones, were series that never had canon ships, never had any romances that lasted more than a single episode. Star Trek, Starsky & Hutch, The Sentinel, all those old episodic shows that never really progressed the character relationships - that never changed them, never pulled the figurative rug out from under fannish feet. The only series I know of with low-conflict canon ships are ships which were introduced in the first season, that the fandom grew up around, and even in those there's often little interaction between contrasting shippers. I also suspect it's a major reason why new female characters are viewed with such suspicion, because while male characters are often introduced for plot purposes, nine times out of ten a new female character is going to mean new canon ships.)

I don't blame shippers. I'm a shipper myself; I wouldn't fan without my ships. I need my OTPs to fic. And I strive to be reasonable and fair to all my fellow fans, but I still have been known to go utterly psycho batshit when I feel my OTP is "threatened," so it doesn't surprise me to see other otherwise reasonable types lose it over shipping. It's frustrating since the fandom used to be cooler about it - but then the fandom didn't have canon ships before. A fandom with canon ships has ship wars. It just seems to be a fact of fandom; it's why I tended to avoid Who fandom, or Avatar fandom, why I often keep wary distance from anime fandoms.

My OTPs aren't canon, generally (at least not in my fic fandoms, my active "Type B" fandoms - and I tend to avoid main fandom for my Type As, because I'd just as soon not get drawn into shipping wars.) But I don't need my OTPs to be canon to be satisfied, don't need my interpretation of the characters validated above all other interpretations. As long as they're never actually denied, I'm good. The more open-ended canon is, the more freedom there is for all fans, all different shippers, to peacefully co-exist, and I like it that way.

If I sound like I'm saying I'd rather not have canon ships in my ficcing fandoms - yeah, I am. Bring on the subtext and the UST, and leave the consummations to the fanfic. Maybe it's unrealistic and maybe it's boring, but I don't care. It's more peaceful that way XP

Comments

[mecurtin.livejournal.com]

I think you're absolutely right, and it does not bode well for the future of Merlin fandom IMHO. Arthurian legend is *all about* the ship wars.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Merlin fandom might fare a bit better because the ships have been there from the start, and because everyone knows about the canonical love triangle to come. It's not going to come out of the blue (...if it comes at all; Merlin being what it is, I'm not sure!) Also, if it keeps up like first season, teasing but never consummating, that will help...but yes, will have to see!

And kittens too!

[greyias.livejournal.com]

It really is rather mild compared to other fandoms, if it weren't I probably would have high-tailed it at the first sign of crazy. Of course, I'm already drifting a little. I've felt a little... hrm, I don't know how to put it, other than I don't really feel free to talk about the show in all aspects like I used to. It's still a very, very tense time right now. I feel like everyone's waiting for the next round of wank to explode -- including me *g*

Re: And kittens too!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I know how you feel about that tension...I've been metaing more on the fandom itself than the canon lately, because it feels like any opinion I state is bound to hurt somebody's feelings.

I've been drifting myself, but fannish butterfly that I am, that's not really surprising. It makes me sad, though, that SGA fandom might not be a happy place I can revisit, the way I do with many of my old and dearest flames...I hope it might settle, though. Closed canons rarely keep up this kind of heat. (Also I don't want all McSheppers to jump ship yet, I've still got a fic, dangit! XP)

[rheanna27.livejournal.com]

...while male characters are often introduced for plot purposes, nine times out of ten a new female character is going to mean new canon ships.

That's a really interesting observation -- I hadn't consciously thought of it before, but now I think about, I think it's sadly the case that there's an awful lot of truth in this.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

There was a period of time that I disliked nearly all female characters, preferred shows that didn't have any major female characters at all (particularly because it meant no major romance - I was a gen fan first, romance is not my cup of tea.)

Then eventually it occurred to me that that was crazy, because I'm a woman myself, in real life I like many women, I used to love female characters (mostly in kids' stories where romance wasn't an issue) and there's absolutely no reason that a major female character has to mean a major romance. Since then I've started scrutinizing female characters, trying to piece together the reasons for my dislike, and other fans'. And the romance is a big factor for me. One of the reasons I liked SGA was that it had female characters who - while having relationships with men - weren't romantically involved, so, yeah, the last season was a pretty major disappointment...

[sp23.livejournal.com]

I'm lucky in that I don't really pay that much attention to the wanking going on - except in one instance where I felt an author was unduly attacked and it pissed me off.

As for Keller, there's a lot to be dissatisfied about this character besides the canon ship. Much like Carson, she was a character who should have remained recurring - appearing only when it added to the overall plot - who was given too much face time and shoved in where it made no sense. Add in the awkward, unbelievable canon ship with Rodney, and you have a character that is going to cause much aggravation among the fen, especially shippers/slashers.

It's unfortunate that TPTB decided to throw this stupid relationship in our faces. It's unfortunate that TPTB decided that they were in love with Jewell Staite and wanted to turn the show from a Team show into the Keller show. It's unfortunate that I'm now glad the show was canceled since I don't want to see what else TPTB would have done to my show.

I ignore any story that doesn't fit my particular taste. I wish other people would do the same and stop bitching about what other people write.

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

I have a theory. I theorize that TPTB intended to have the Rodney/Keller romance as an ongoing comic interlude over many seasons -- cute moments, near misses, that sort of thing -- until the final season. And then they learned that this was the final season.

It explains the sharp relationship arc (resembling a hairpin turn).

[tex.livejournal.com]

If I sound like I'm saying I'd rather not have canon ships in my ficcing fandoms - yeah, I am. Bring on the subtext and the UST, and leave the consummations to the fanfic.

Please to be signing me up for that team. This is the post of WIN.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Just Say No To Romance! XP

[icarusancalion.livejournal.com]

Mmm. Very wise. Interesting observation about female characters often being introduced to add romantic tension. It's wince-worthy and true.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I have several theories why fans react badly to female characters, but that's a major one. It's not even that they're always introduced for romance - sometimes it seems like TPTB are like, "Well, we have this new female char, what story arc can we give her? What guys are available?" Keller wasn't introduced for romantic reasons - but they didn't waste much time pairing her off.

(This is one of many reasons why the manga One Piece is one of my favorite series of all time, because there's zero romance - but multiple female characters, who have their own dreams and ambitions and trials, none of which have to do with who they're going to hook up with. There's very few series, Japanese or Western, like that...)

[michelel72.livejournal.com]

I've definitely spoken out about hating McKay/Keller and really not being impressed by the character of Keller herself, but I've tried to confine it to thoughtful commentary in TWoP forums and reasonably measured LJ conversations (such as a previous posting and comments of yours). I really don't get attacking people (other than TPTB, heh) for liking or disliking characters or ships -- what's the point? I mean, even if I don't like McKay/Keller, I can appreciate a well-written fanfic that includes or is even about that. I can also just click away.

I feel as though I do know of a case in which canon shipping has worked well, but of course nothing comes to mind. (Mal/Inara, maybe, though that certainly wasn't a settled, easy relationship -- which might be why it worked for me. Maybe Adama/Roslin?) But even if there is, I'm sure someone out there disagrees about that very example. I mean, there are Kavanaugh fans out there, you know? I didn't think Ginny Weasley was that awful, but I didn't see much chemistry between her and Harry, either; frankly, I didn't much care one way or the other and wasn't sure why so many people seemed to. Pretty much the only thing that will get me worked up is a canon ship done badly.

But I do see the appeal of canon works that just avoid the question and leave any pairings up to the fan. That also leaves room for exploration of other types of relationship. I mean, not everything has to end up in two-by-two (or however many) romance and/or sex. I get McShep because damn do those two have chemistry, and I've enjoyed all sorts of pairings/groupings, but in my own fics I find I'm writing a bunch of gen friendship stuff. Because, you know, we don't get a lot of text dealing with powerful friendships in most modern media (Adama/Tigh possibly excepted), and one of the greatest advantages of fanworks is that the writer can use them to work out any damn thing he/she needs to with more chance of finding a sympathetic audience than original works tend to have. They're all just variations, interpretations. It's all good!

So, yeah, I see your point about the advantages of canon works avoiding shipping, and I'd agree unless the ship is really well done (which means intended and thought-out and integrated) that it's more likely to cause discord than appreciation -- especially when you get into situations like late Buffy. I mean, when the victim of the week has to ask who in the group haven't slept together (yet)? Sure, funny meta, show, except ... not so funny, really.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I actually have multiple canon ships that I love (including some quite unpopular ones; in X-men I actually think Scott/Jean are cute, I'm perfectly okay with JD/Elliot, and there's about a zillion anime/manga series that I adore the canon couples to the point of flailing and high-pitched squealing). But those are almost entirely series that I don't participate much in active fandom - I don't write fic or enter in many discussions, and that's in a large part because I don't want to get involved with the inevitable ship wars.

I don't think all series need to be active fanning series, and for me, if I'm not actively fanning, then I tend not to mind canon ships. I won't always like them, but they won't make me flip out unless I get an OTP - which tends to be when I start ficcing, usually why I start ficcing.

Most of my fic fandoms are ones without canon ships. They used to be the series with Babes of the Week, the come-and-go romances that never had any long-term impact on characters or relationships. Nowadays, with arc shows become more common, long-term lasting canon ships are becoming more expected. It makes for more volatile shipwars, stuff I try to avoid - one reason I let myself get into SGA is because I thought it was safe, one of the rare ship-free fandoms. SG-1 never went entirely canon with Sam/Jack, and I thought SGA would be the same.

For me, it's not just that McKeller was done badly - even if it had been done well, it would've changed the nature of the show, and the fandom. Even if I liked McKeller, there'd be sure to be fans who didn't. If McKeller, or John/Teyla, or another canon ship, had existed from the beginning, it probably would've been a more tumultuous fandom from the start - and there's a good chance I never would've gotten into SGA fandom at all, avoiding the conflict.

[jujuberry136.livejournal.com]

I totally agree. I'm fine with ships introduced as solid in the first season (see Zoe and Wash in Firefly) but I much prefer to play around with shows that don't have a defined canon couple. The UST is just more FUN than the actual relationship most of the time, AND it gives all the fans wiggle room to play with their own OTP if it doesn't appear in canon.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes, for me it's the "play around" that matters. There's quite a few shows I watch that I like the canon ships just fine - but I don't fic for them. In the shows I'm ficcing for, I prefer a more free, open canon - wiggle room, as you say. So I resent canon shipping in a canon that didn't have anything overt for over three seasons. Grrr!

[trystings.livejournal.com]

Well, for what it's worth, I like Keller and I don't feel driven from anywhere and I don't like McKeller, but I'm still very, very happy with my show, including season 5. ;)

I must be very dense when it comes to SGA wank. I don't deny it's around - I’ve rolled my eyes a few times when reading a McShep fix-it fic or when I saw a derogatory Keller comment on a post that had nothing to do with the character, but if there has been major wank, I've apparently mentioned to avoid it.

On the other hand, some people will probably find this post and its comments wanky. It's a shame, I love meta and discussions about storylines and characters and pairings. To me, that's what fandom is about (and fic. Lots of fic), but right now, I feel I have to weigh every word on a pair of scales, for fear that I offend someone. It's time we all lighten up a little and focus on what we love about SGA. Believe me, there's plenty.

The more open-ended canon is, the more freedom there is for all fans, all different shippers, to peacefully co-exist, and I like it that way.

Word!

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I think the wank is only in certain areas...I think that some people aren't as used to it as others are. And then, there's those fans who used to see eye-to-eye on the fandom, and don't any more; all of that's causing trouble.

Regardless, I'm glad some people are still enjoying SGA, canon and fandom! I'm still liking it, but I've been drifting...it's less the wank for me, though; more my fandom butterfly-ness. But I tend to float back to things, too, and I want SGA fandom to be here when I do (...also I've got fic! No one's allowed to leave 'til I'm done my fic! XPPP)

[tringasolitaria.livejournal.com]

It's always been interesting to me (and please don't take this the wrong way - it's not intended as a criticism, just an observation) that the LJ fandom was so completely taken aback by the McKeller negativity/fandom unhappiness. I suppose for myself, I discovered Gateworld before I discovered LJ, and they're two completely separate worlds. On Gateworld, the firestorm over the Carter for Weir exchange was furious and went on for months and months, and the Atlantis fandom on that board has never really gotten over it. On LJ, there was a little bit about it, but mostly LJ fans accepted it without any big deal. It wasn't until McKeller came along that LJ started getting upset, but I suppose after over a year and half of the GW stuff, I was pretty immune to it, and didn't really see it as any big change - just LJ finally catching up. LOL! :)

Actually, though, now that I think about it, I guess a lot of that had to do with shipping, though, too. GW has a lot of het shippers, and not very many slash shippers. And the loss of Elizabeth only inflamed the already tense standoff between the S/W shippers, which were (and I think still are) the largest het ship, and the J/T shippers, which considered themselves to be the rightful canon-intended ship.

LJ, though, is more slash shippers and gen fans, and they didn't really felt threatened that much until McKeller came along.

Just as a matter of curiosity, what do you think would have happened if, instead of McKeller, we had gotten Sheyla at comparable levels of intensity? The dream at the beginning of S&R certainly signaled they were thinking about going that route at some point at least. Do you think there would have been a similar reaction? Or is it because it's Keller? Or it's because it's Rodney and Sheppard's not getting enough attention? I'm not drawing any conclusions here - I'm just curious what you think.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

It's always been interesting to me (...) that the LJ fandom was so completely taken aback by the McKeller negativity/fandom unhappiness.

Oh, yes, I admit to being surprised by this myself. I've been in Smallville, and anime fandoms - the wank and char-hate that is driving some people from SGA fandom now is still so low-key to what I've seen in other fandoms that I have a hard time getting worked up about it. But peoples' feelings are genuinely being hurt, and it's not that they're thin-skinned, I don't think, so much as that SGA fandom on lj - being, as you say, mostly slash and gen - has been pretty tame, rather live-and-let-live. So even these levels of conflict are too hot for people used to what they saw as an unusually open, friendly fandom. They're realizing now that it's no different from any other fandom - it's just that the canon wasn't exerting the same pressure on the fandom.

I tend to avoid het fandoms in part because they tend to be "hotter", in my experience - the canonical UST is more overt, the romance more likely, so the shipwars are more intense. Genners and slashers tend not to get as worked up about subtext - but when things go text, all bets are off.

As far as the nature of the ships - in my completely uneducated opinion, and it depends on how it was handled, but overall I think canon John/Teyla would've caused conflict, but not as much as the McKeller. Partly because the ship's not entirely out of the blue, having hints all the way back to the pilot, and partly because Teyla is overall pretty liked in the fandom. So the majority of fans who rejected the J/T ship probably wouldn't have started hating on Teyla; they'd want the ship gone, but not Teyla herself. While as Keller wasn't that liked to begin with, and a lot of people who hated the McKeller ship were willing to turn that hate on her, just want her off the show. (Not to mention, J/T would alter but wouldn't actually break up the team dynamic, which the McKeller ship did.)

That's just a guess, though, and I think there would've been conflict no matter what.

[dovil.livejournal.com]

I think it's also a case of people not taking care of their fandom squee and wanting a hive mind - if you dearly love character x/pairing y and someone's gone meta all over it saying why they loathe it, and yet you still click on the link - that's not fandom driving you out, that's being masochistic and winding yourself up.

Human nature I guess. I'm sure we've all been guilty of it.

And after going through something similar in the Buffy fandom on the other side of things (I was a Spike/Angel shipper, some people who felt strongly about Spike loathed Buffy, I happened to like that character) and the conversations which weren't what I wanted to be involved with, I trimmed my flist, avoided certain coms, and made posts with the warning that this was a Buffy Bashing Free Zone - people respected it, I made a niche for myself and I was a lot happier about the whole thing. People were free to discuss the evils of Buffy, I was free to avoid it - plus the great thing about getting too emotional about the whole thing - internet time outs and switching the commuter off - I find it was a great way to put things in perspective.

[astridv.livejournal.com]

I think it's also a case of people not taking care of their fandom squee and wanting a hive mind - if you dearly love character x/pairing y and someone's gone meta all over it saying why they loathe it, and yet you still click on the link - that's not fandom driving you out, that's being masochistic and winding yourself up.

No, that is not the case. As many people said many times now, it had become impossible to escape the character/pairing/show bashing. (My thoughts about it are here (http://astridv.livejournal.com/136488.html).) If someone posts a squeeful ep review or a fanfic featuring the character or pairing or goes to one of those happy GW threads, and people come to the fic/post/comm/ffn review board/squee-only GW thread and leave comments full of show/character hate, the posters are not being masochistic; the commenters are being inconsiderate, and apparently tireless in the spreading of their own dissatisfaction with canon because it was everywhere.

I tried my best to avoid it. Didn't follow links to meta any more. I defriended and filtered LJs and comms, I stopped going to Mallozzi's blog and Gateworld, but it still was impossible to find a place where you could enjoy the show without someone intruding and arguing how much it sucks and turning it into a hate thread.

I resent being told it's my fault for not filtering enough. One couldn't filter more and still be in the fandom.

[sholio]

I think you have a good point about growing ship wars, and the fandom being mellower in the beginning. But I think that what you haven't seen, because you haven't been in the fandom as long as I have, is that there have been cycles of this sort of thing all along; it just hasn't gotten this bad.

There has always been character hate and ship-warring in the fandom. There was some pretty massive Elizabeth hate in seasons 1/2, and ship wars between the John/Rodney, John/Elizabeth and John/Teyla factions during the same time. This had mostly settled down when I got into fandom, but then there was a massive upswell of character hate (directed mostly towards Carter and Keller) towards the end of season three. I had almost forgotten how bad it really was until I went back and re-read a Carter fic from that era just recently -- I would consider the author's tone towards Carter ambiguous at best (I don't think she comes off very well), but the comments are all gushing praise at the author for not demonizing her and treating her fairly. That's how bad it was -- if you were a Carter fan, the best you could hope for was a story that didn't utterly ream your favorite character.

During the season 3/4 gap, I locked comments on a few posts much as I did towards the end of season five, because it was pretty much impossible to post anything about the show without an influx of OH NOES CARTER KELLER THE SHOW IS RUINED sky-is-falling comments. There were anecdotal stories about Tapping and Staite being booed at conventions. Just a whole lot of free-floating unpleasantness, like now.

But the initial firestorm of anger and misery ended pretty quickly (at least in my segments of fandom) because the disgruntled fans got fed up with the show and the fandom, and left. The Carson fans left; ditto for many of the Carter fans; the Elizabeth and John/Elizabeth fans either left, or retreated to a few ShepWeir-specific communities that denied season 4+ canon. I'm still friends with a few people who (with varying amounts of bitterness) jumped ship at that time.

There were also lesser firestorms. Katie Brown was widely loathed. So was Heightmeyer; so was Caldwell and, of course, everyone's whipping boy, Kavanagh. And that's not even to touch the rounds of race-related meta ...

So it's not new. I think one of the only reasons why it's so much bigger this time is because John/Rodney fandom is affected to a greater degree. Let's face it, the McShep fans have always been the bulk of the fandom, and earlier ship wars and fannish misery about the show were kind of like planetoids colliding around the giant body of McShep fandom -- it just couldn't get through to the bulk of fandom, which stayed in its happy place. This time, canon itself threw a monkey wrench in McKay/Sheppard fandom, and that meant that suddenly the John/Rodney fans were in the same place that the John/Elizabeth fans had been at the end of season 3, or the John/Teyla fans with Kanaan. And because they had so much more pull, their unhappiness took the whole tone of the fandom down like a lead balloon.

I'm not blaming McKay/Sheppard fandom or saying that the only disgruntled fans are McShep fans, or that all McShep fans are unhappy. But I think that's a very large factor in why it's become so overwhelming this time, when it didn't before -- because McKay/Sheppard fandom, due to its monolithic size, was a stabilizing element on the overall fandom (with some assistance from the equally stable and -- relative to the rest of gen fandom -- equally large John-Rodney segment of gen fans). No matter what was happening elsewhere in fandom or canon, the majority of fans were happy anyway. Now it's having the opposite effect -- its overwhelming size has made it a destabilizing element.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I think you're very right about the McShep side of the fandom being a stabilizing influence. And now it's been destabilized, and is tearing the fandom asunder (well, not that dramatic, except in certain communities.)

I think, too, that your perspective is a little different, too, because you were in the McShep side yourself for most of your fanning. You weren't a slasher, but you enjoyed the friendship - same as the majority of SGA gen fans, as well as a lot of slash McSheppers who also liked the gen relationship in the canon. If you'd been into, say, John/Elizabeth from the beginning, you probably always would've seen the fandom as more conflicted and contentious. But McShep fanning is shielding - no one would casually diss the pairing in comments, because of the backlash of defense.

Move outside of that shell, and it gets trickier. Especially when you're in the middle of it, when you've established yourself. One of the overriding principles of fandom is that Fans Do Not Take Well To Change. This is not true of all fans - but the majority will almost always react to alterations in the status quo. In the canon, obviously - but also in the fandom; it's hard not to see the disagreement of a fan friend as a sort of betrayal. This goes both ways - I suspect some of your fans, your regular readers, were upset when you stopped writing John-Rodney; likewise you were upset when the people you used to broadly agree with re: canon & fandom were suddenly completely opposed to you, drawing lines in the sand that you didn't think even should matter.

So, yeah. I don't think SGA is different from other fandoms; I don't think what's going on now is different from what goes on in most other fandoms. I wish it wasn't, I could wish fandom as a whole were gentler - but that's the way the cookie crumbles. I'm not really involved in the fandom much myself nowadays because I prefer to get out before something is ruined for me (I've met many a fan who was so terribly burned by a once-beloved that they couldn't ever return to it happily; your experience of having your eyes opened to the awfulness of it is far from the first I've read) - I am sorry it was ruined or at least damaged for you, and I am so sorry for what role I played in that. But...well, yeah. All good things must come to an end, I suppose?

(In all honesty, the main, utterly selfish reason that I'm so annoyed by what's happening is that I have that McShep story I'm finishing, and, feedback whore that I am, I want there to be readers when I complete it! dangit!! If only I'd gotten the damn thing done six months ago...)

[sholio]

I do, by the way, really appreciate that your original post is so respectful to both sides.

There was, as you know because you got the notifications, a whole lot more to this comment, which I've edited out because it was really just ranting, and why bother. It's over, it's done. Time to move on.

[droolfangrrl.livejournal.com]

I completely fail when in comes to ship wars. I may not get who you like or want to write about, but why should i really care one way or another that you like and/ or write about something.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

That's pretty much why I try to stay out of them. Though as an OTP fan myself, I can understand the need to "defend" one's beloveds, even if it makes no logical sense to do so...!

[elspethdixon.livejournal.com]

Every fandom I know of that has these battles, has these levels of anger and resentment between fans, is a fandom with canon ships

You know, I think you may have something there. I remember bitter, bitter ship wars in HP fandom, but none at all during my brief experience in Mariachi/Once Upon a Time in Mexico fandom. And in PotC fandom, the period after th first movie was sort of an awesome, polytastic halcyon period where everybody kind of shipped everyone, and Sparrington, any combination of Jack/Will/Elizabeth, and various other pairings all coexisted happily. Then the second movie came out, the Jack/Will/Elizabeth love triangle became canon instead of just a bunch of fun subext, and the Elizabeth/Will vs. Elizabeth/Jack vs. anti-Elizabeth fans vs. angry Norrington fans infighting almost tore the fandom apart (and I think did ruin it for a lot of people - it definately made it less fun to be an OT3 fan, when half the fen out there seemed to want you to take sides in their ship war and you just wanted happy and/or angsty threesome-y goodness). I still maintain that Elizabeth kissing Jack and then chaining him to the Pearl's mast was the most awesome Lizzie moment in the whole series, though *grins*

*ponders* Anime fandoms may merit a special note, since they manage not only to fight bitter ship wars over canon ships, but also between different fans who all ship the same pairing over which character should be the seme and which should be the uke.

The whole thing makes me kind of glad cap_ironman is basically it's own fandom and doesn't interact with Iron Man movie-verse fandom that much - a Steve/Tony vs. Tony/Pepper ship war would suck almost as much as current comics canon does. Plus, most fans seem to like (or at least not mind) the canon het ships on the Avengers, and to like the female characters. Possibly everyone just takes their wankier impulses to scans_daily.

*uses wanky canon het icon*

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I don't think that canon ships are the only cause of conflict - but of the fandoms I've been in, the more canon ships there are, the more divided the fandom is. So I'm convinced there's something going on there.

Anime fandoms are different on a number of factors - because the ships often are introduced early on, because new characters coming in late into the story is standard practice for most long-running anime, because the average fandom age tends to be younger and thus more volatile. (Do shipwars really happen over seme vs uke?? I've seen debate on the subject but not open battle - but then I tend to avoid the really big anime fandoms, so... ^^;)

Isolated comms and tiny fandoms tend to be the best drama-free places...and even those can be upset by major canon happenings. Caveat fangirlia - let the fangirl beware! XP

(Rogue/Gambit! <3333)

[horridporrid.livejournal.com]

The thing is, though, this strikes me as selfish. You're asking for a writer to dream up a character but not have any kind of fun with them. Set them to their appointed task like automatons and wash and repeat until fandom finds a new crush. So the original creator is responsible for providing fandom with their toys, but fandom actually owns that character and gets to decide who he fucks and who he falls in love with.

I rather hate that idea. But I'm looking for good stories in and of themselves. Not character templates to play with. (I don't write fanfic though. I'm sure that changes things.)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Ahh, I'm totally being selfish! 100%, absolutely, I should've made that point cleared in my post ^^;

As I've mentioned in my comments above, I love many a canon pairing. It's just in the fandoms that I fic actively for that I want that freedom.

It used to be that most shows were episodic, and didn't develop the characters; the writers were restricted to writing them in particular relationships, a particular way. Arc shows, with changing characters and relationships, are much more the norm now. And I enjoy a good arc show - but I can't fan on it, not in the same way. I miss the episodic shows. I don't want every show to be like that - but it would be nice to have just one. Same as, like I mentioned to you before, it would be nice to have just one show that the most major relationship wasn't a romance. It's great if you like romance. But if it's something you're merely enduring, in show after show after show...yeah, one gets bitter, after a while.

[shardsofblu.livejournal.com]

Personally I just don't understand all the fuss about canon ships -- for me, you ship whomever you like, simple as that. Canon schmanon. If they're canon, it's just icing on the cake for me. If not, I have no problems.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's something that's personal to an individual fan. Some fans aren't bothered if canon screws up their 'ship; but many are (including yours truly, on occasion), and I'd just as soon avoid the issue!

[monkey-junkey.livejournal.com]

Well said! Subtext and UST make the world go 'round.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Constant UST can get frustrating - but it's never as divisive to a fandom as outright shipping...

[not-as-we.livejournal.com]

i tend to fall for a certain ship in a show when i watch it for the first time, and then grow to love the show afterwards, without ships there is no fandom, at least for me :)

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

This is true for me, though I work with a broad definition of "ship" - I go for friendships as much as romantic pairings. But I don't get into fic without an OTP, as a rule...

[jlh.livejournal.com]

The only series I know of with low-conflict canon ships are ships which were introduced in the first season, that the fandom grew up around, and even in those there's often little interaction between contrasting shippers.

May I ask which show you mean?

Happily, I'm spending most of my time in HIMYM fandom, which is ship-war free, and which structurally can't really have a ship war anyway.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

I was talking mostly about the few fandoms with settled ships - established couples (or occasionally established flirts) who don't have overt UST with anyone else. They're pretty unusual, but - I don't have much experience in the fandom, but I don't think I've seen much shipwars in Firefly over Zoe/Wash? And in RGB fandom Egon/Janine shippers tended to just avoid the smarm/slashers; there'd be a little friction between them on occasion, but not open flames, usually.

Small fandoms seem to be less prone to shipwars - the tiny fandoms I've been in simply don't have enough people, we're just so happy to find others who like the series that we don't really care why they like it.

Here via metafandom...

[xie-xie-xie.livejournal.com]

This is why I never watch shows that are still airing. I need to know what happens, and I only like canon pairings in my fandoms. I can't handle the stress of not knowing if they're going to break my heart or jump the shark or whatever.

Re: Here via metafandom...

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'm cautious about still-airing shows myself. The only reason I dared give myself to SGA is that I was assuming it would be like SG-1 and never actually have outright canon romance, only teasing. So, yeah, the last season was frustrating...

[amycooper.livejournal.com]

Yes, but...

I often find it is with pairings that develop in the mild of a series and wasn't developed particularly well. One can argue, quite successfully actually, that SGA as a whole can be awkward at best when writing relationships and women, and so of course the writing for McKay and Keller's relationship will be equally as awkward. Hell, sometimes I think part of the reason Stargate fandom has such a large following is because the characters are generally good premises and actors are talented but the individual stories are crap. And it is fun to build off of and make it better. (The Sentinel is a good example of this too). Some people can continue going with the flow when awkward ship is introduced because, hello, most of the show is like that. Some aren't for a variety of reasons (Stargate's tendency to have really poorly written women is one biggie, but isn't the only potential reason).

It just doesn't seem like shows that either write the canon ship rather well or establish from the beginning that they will be shipping have the same level of fandom drama.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

It just doesn't seem like shows that either write the canon ship rather well or establish from the beginning that they will be shipping have the same level of fandom drama.

Depends on the fandom - and of course the YMMV factor of the writing. I liked the canon ships of Avatar myself, the main one of which was implied in the first episode - but a lot of the fandom completely melted down over them, from what I know (of course that was a lot of young fans, and thus more volatile, but...)

Then, generally speaking, shows with high-quality writing often don't get as active fic communities anyway - and it's the fic fandoms that get most upset about canon ships, in my experience. What you said here:

I think part of the reason Stargate fandom has such a large following is because the characters are generally good premises and actors are talented but the individual stories are crap. And it is fun to build off of and make it better.

I think this is totally true, of most major fandoms! Fic'ers latch onto potential more than canon.

[cnidarian.livejournal.com]

Interesting post. This line in particular:

...while male characters are often introduced for plot purposes, nine times out of ten a new female character is going to mean new canon ships.

Painfully true.

I have to note, from a personal point of view, that my little shipping corner seems to have come away without getting in any wars. Stargate Daniel/Janet. Now, it was never canon, but later on Daniel/Vala was and we never got into any wank about that - in fact, some of the group ship both pairings. Perhaps Janet being dead before Vala came on the scene helped, but as you said, a character dying can be a source of much rage too and it would've been easy for the group to adopt a hostile attitude to the canon ship that existed while theirs was denied (and killed off).
I think another thing that helped was that Janet was seen as a non-threatening character. Unlike the Sam/Jack vs Daniel/Jack wars, there seemed to be an acceptance of Janet pairings with people who otherwise shipped the other half with someone else. That said, it was rare enough that it was never big enough to be perceived as a threat.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Mmm, yes, non-canon can be the way to go! Completely non-canon ships are almost never attacked, in my experience, unless they somehow get overwhelming enough to dominate a fandom (and I've never seen that happen.) And fans with such ships tend to be less prone to being bothered by canon ships.

In SGA, I believe part of the problem with the McKay/Keller wasn't just that Rodney was getting shipped with someone other than John - it was that simultaneous with the McKeller, the amount of John-Rodney scenes in canon took a sharp downturn. In the show itself, I didn't romantically ship J/R (well, not much, anyway) but I did "friend"-ship them, and the friendship pretty much ended in canon when the McKeller started. While as there never was much Daniel/Janet in canon (and there was none by the time Vala appeared, because of Janet's death) so nothing for the shippers to get upset over.

[mistress-kabuki.livejournal.com]

Here via metafandom.

First off, I'm a slasher so my response if from that background. Hardly any of those fandom ships are made canon.

Very intersting observations regarding female characters. I have to admit that the shipping doesn't interest me unless there's a gen story behind it and I tend to get frusterated with forced realtionships i.e. characters introduced in canon and shown beginning a relationship without good canonical reason. A good example of this was the Remus/Tonks pairing in the HP canon -- true it pissed off a lot of Sirius/Remus and Snape/Remus fans, but the way the relationship was dropped out of the blue was the truely irksome part.

This brings me back to your point about female characters. Most of the ones I like are ones that have no canon ship and draw strength from their own actions instead of a canon relationship. Maybe it's just me and the fact that I primarily enjoy slash pairings, but the idea of women only being introduced as pairing partners might contribute to this resentment and eventually some of the shipping wars -- that a character is purposefully being introduced to "cure the gay" so to speak. In that sense, fans have a right to be mad. Not only are female characters being introduced for shallow reasons but their ships are being termed invalid and perhaps dangerous by the creators.

Just my $.02 -- I'm fascinated by the reactions in fandom when new characters and relationships are introduced. It always causes division.

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Metafandom brings all the commenters to the yard!

I have to admit that the shipping doesn't interest me unless there's a gen story behind it

This is true for me as well - my favorite pairings are usually those solidly based in friendship. Which is why I tend to go for slash more than gen, because slash pairings are often close friendship in canon, while as too many canon het ships don't seem to be based on much of anything except sexual attraction. The rare het pairings that come from other sorts of partnerships, I'm often all over (hence my Mulder/Scully OTP).

Most of the ones I like are ones that have no canon ship and draw strength from their own actions instead of a canon relationship.

Hmmm - this is true and it isn't, for me. My favorite characters are characters with strong relationships to other characters - but romantic relationships don't interest me much. However, many female characters don't have any strong relationships except their romantic ones - while male characters will have friends and rivals and even nemeses (not a positive relationship, but a powerful one). So I have a harder time liking those female characters, however strong and independent they are otherwise. (This is reversed in certain female-authored, female-audience works - for instance, in Gilmore Girls, or the movie Mamma Mia!, I like the female characters more than the males, because they're the ones with the non-romantic relationships...)

And the female characters brought in to "cure the gay" - oh, yes, that is justifiable outrage; the problem is that it's so hard to prove...

I'm fascinated by fandom reactions myself! Though the divisions are painful when you're on the inside...

[mistri.livejournal.com]

Interesting post. I'm here via Metafandom. I don't know anything about SGA, but I'm currently involved in a fandom (John Paul/Craig, in Hollyoaks, the British soap) that has a very bitter shipping war going on.

Basically, it is unusual in having two canon m/m relationships, both involving the same guy (John Paul). The fans split into two camps, who both can't understand (I'm generalising) what on earth the other side sees in their ship.

This: "Nothing embitters your average fan as much as a ship that sinks their own" is so true.

However, I do love having canon ships. And if you follow the ship that 'wins' (that sounds pathetic, I know), it gives you something to refute people who ship another pair. For example on CSI, I liked Grissom/Sara, but there were plenty of fans who would go on and on about all the reasons why G/S either weren't together or were doomed to fail. So when (spoiler!) they ended up together when Grissom left it 'proved' the relationship was real (though some could still argue the relationship would fail off-screen, I suppose).

[xparrot.livejournal.com]

Hee, yeah, when your ship "wins" it can be fun (as long as it goes the way you wanted it to; I've had canon ships consummated in ways that made me wish they'd been done better.) But it still causes so much conflict in the fandom that I'd rather nobody wins, rather than endure the inevitable shipwars...

(Which are getting wilder than ever, now that there's shows with canon m/m!)